Author Topic: An Independent Scotland?  (Read 1261 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Super Dude

  • Hero of Prog
  • DTF.com Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16265
  • Gender: Male
An Independent Scotland?
« on: February 26, 2012, 11:58:19 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/opinion/independence-for-scotland.html?_r=1&hp

Well it's rare we get a topic quite as interesting as this. I don't feel much like copy+pasting, so feel free to click the jump. I'm pretty neutral on the issue since - let's be honest - I know nothing about it, none of the background. It would be weird for the United Kingdom to not be...well, united. I'll leave this up to discussion.
Quote from: bosk1
As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
:superdude:

Offline Riceball

  • It's the economy, stupid.
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 12:41:38 AM »
I heard about this on the weekend. Sounds very interesting, actually. I'm not sure of how important Scotland is to the UK in terms of income generation or tax revenues (and I cbf looking, been looking at numbers all day today - hence I'm doing words now), but if its beneficial for the UK to 'cut them loose' on a dollar-to-dollar (or is that pound-to-pound) basis, I reckon they'll go for it. The UK is up a fiscal shit creek at the moment, moreso than most other governments, and I dare say they would sell a kidney to pay the bills...not that losing Scotland would be the equivilant of losing a kidney - again, I don't have the numbers here. Scotland seem to be doing it for more nationalistic purposes than anything, although IIRC the radio story I heard on the weekend led me to believe that the Scots are a net loser fiscally of the union at the moment.

Anyway, I think this bit of the article sums it up quite well in a political sense:

Quote
The roots of this crisis lie far back in British history. After co-existing under the same monarch for a century, in 1707 a poverty-stricken, failing Scotland agreed to enter an “incorporating union” with England, in which Scotland gave up its independence in return for access to English markets and to the widening English empire overseas. But there was a fateful misunderstanding between two very different constitutional traditions. The English regarded the union as irreversible; the Scots, then and now, regarded it as a treaty that could be modified or even ended by mutual agreement.

Fortunately, we don't live in the 18th century, and so we won't have long boats filled with bards darting across the ditch to raise buildings. If the UK really want to stop this, they will attempt to do so politically and politically only. Scotland seems pretty keen on the notion, as do their population, and so I can see this happening. Although I am literally going by a) what I've read in that article and b) what I remember from the radio story on the weekend.

Side note #1: I find it ironic that Britain decided (on behalf of the UK) to jump out of the EU fiscal compact, now their own fiscal compact is breaking
Side note #2: Damn, the NYT has some meaty articles. Refreshing.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 12:47:47 AM by Riceball »
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

A $500 Musical Odyssey: Now accepting nominations

Offline AcidLameLTE

  • Nae deal pal
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11134
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 05:24:33 AM »
No and I'm fed up of hearing about it.

Edit: Also, "I find it ironic that Britain decided (on behalf of the UK)"...what do you mean on behalf of the UK? The only difference between Britain and the UK is that the UK includes Northern Ireland.

Offline Riceball

  • It's the economy, stupid.
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 06:24:34 AM »
Ok, care to flesh that out a little? Its fine to be contrarian, but without a bit of rationale you've just killed what could have been an interesting discussion for some who find this kind of thing interesting. I know you live there and that this is likely impacting you directly, but this is a forum full of prognerds, with very little skin in the game, who like to pretend they do.

So please, why do you not agree with the idea?

And I mean it in so far as foreign policy is controlled by the UK parliament, which is by virtue of numbers highly concentrated with the British. Hence, my point. it was just a throwaway line, again one of those things some people find amusing (and others do not).
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

A $500 Musical Odyssey: Now accepting nominations

Offline AcidLameLTE

  • Nae deal pal
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11134
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 07:21:39 AM »
What I mean is are you confusing Britain with England?

For a start, I disagree with it due to the fact that most people who support it are just xenophobes who hate the English.

Secondly, I have no idea where the hell our income is going to come from. The oil we have isn't going to last forever. In fact, oil companies are already making big cut backs in Aberdeen while pouring money into Stavanger. To add to that, we already spend a lot of money on "free" education and prescriptions on top of stuff like NHS etc.

Scotland also spends more per person (double in fact), than they do in England and I'm sure a lot of that money comes from Westminster.

We've already had a couple of big businesses say they would pull out of Scotland if they went independent (I can't find the articles right now).

Also, the uncertainty of independence is causing problems else where:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish_independence_energy_giant_warns_uncertainty_over_referendum_could_cost_scotland_dear_1_2138188

There would also be all the massive administration costs that we'll have to spend on separating stuff like the NHS.

We already spent an obscene amount of money on building the Scottish parliament buildings. There's no pointing in wasting any more money on this.

Offline glaurung

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4466
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 08:49:20 PM »
Harry why don't you want FREEEEEEEEDOM?
Cole: "Ow I just got hit in the balls"
Me: "How?"
Cole: "Well you know when you try to scratch your balls, and you scratch too hard?
I'll admit sometimes I want to listen to Dragonforce.

Offline Riceball

  • It's the economy, stupid.
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 10:46:21 PM »
That's why I shouldn't start getting all political without looking at the numbers. Likely not a good idea in that case.

And yes, I'm one of those tards who mistake Britain for England - damned imperial system.
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

A $500 Musical Odyssey: Now accepting nominations

Offline AcidLameLTE

  • Nae deal pal
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11134
  • Gender: Male
Re: An Independent Scotland?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 04:17:42 AM »
Harry why don't you want FREEEEEEEEDOM?
This is seriously one of the reasons I hate Braveheart. It turns people here in mindless, English hating, xenophobic idiots. Either that or just makes it worse.