Author Topic: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"  (Read 7203 times)

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Offline Nick

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2012, 07:29:47 PM »
You people need to stop forcing your views on spelling and grammar on other people.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2012, 07:32:41 PM »
You people need to stop forcing your views on spelling and grammar on other people.


....what do you mean "you people"?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2012, 07:37:30 PM »
YOUR YOU'RE WRONG!

Just pointing out a grammatical inconsistency.

NO U!


















(and, yes, the original error was intentional; I did not accidentally it)
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2012, 07:55:42 PM »
It = the whole thing?

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 04:57:18 AM »
That's one of the best BLRs I've seen.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 06:28:22 AM »
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 07:19:39 AM »
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

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Offline snapple

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 07:30:01 AM »
Well, I can say that I vote for someone based on faith for a reason. My faith is my guiding compass. It's what I believe and how I ought to make my decisions. Sure I mess up, but, to me, it always points north. So, if there is a candidate who truly believes what I do (Mike Huckabee in '08 for example) I want to give them my vote. I know what guides me might also guide them. You know, in regards to decision making, not just things like abortion and social issues.

I hope that makes sense.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 07:43:34 AM »
Well, I can say that I vote for someone based on faith for a reason. My faith is my guiding compass. It's what I believe and how I ought to make my decisions. Sure I mess up, but, to me, it always points north. So, if there is a candidate who truly believes what I do (Mike Huckabee in '08 for example) I want to give them my vote. I know what guides me might also guide them. You know, in regards to decision making, not just things like abortion and social issues.

I hope that makes sense.

If someone had your faith but said we should do away with welfare, get rid of EPA standards, and wanted to send double the troops that were there back over seas, would you still vote for them?

Offline snapple

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2012, 07:58:25 AM »
There is a line. Of those three, the welfare is the only one that I'd disagree with. Not that I'm in agreement with the other two, but I don't disagree. Welfare serves a purpose.

I'm pretty sure Santorum and I believe in the same God and have the same beliefs. But, we look through it with a different lens. I'd rather vote for Romney.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2012, 08:03:42 AM »

This. Even as an athiest, I could care less what the person running believes in, as long as they don't show people who believe what they do favoritism or belittle beliefs other than their own. I do have a problem however when a candidate's beliefs get in the way of cold hard truth. For example, Santorum's views on contraceptives and abstinence. He thinks that getting rid of contraceptives and focussing more on abstinence is what is needed to prevent teen pregnancy. Looking at a human being as a product of nature and evolution, and not as a special product of a god, will make you realize how wrong his views on the matter are.

Just pointing out a logical inconsistency.  His views are different than yours, but that doesn't mean he's "wrong".  If you won't vote for someone because he has different beliefs, more power to you, but I think it's all too easy (and counterproductive) to play the right vs. wrong game.

Well, actually, when it comes to abstinence v contraception, he could not possibly be more wrong.  It's pretty much an unmitigated fact, backed up by actual raw data and statistics, that abstinence-only programs are completely ineffective.  Yet, Santorum continues to blow this right-wing dog whistle about it because -as anyone with even a tiny fraction of a clue understands- he's playing to a constituency that doesn't want to hear any facts on this.  Because those facts fly directly in the face of their worldview. 

Offline rumborak

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 08:03:54 AM »
The idea that faith makes for better people is one of the biggest myths out there.

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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2012, 08:08:15 AM »
The idea that faith makes for better people is one of the biggest myths out there.

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Offline snapple

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2012, 08:08:22 AM »
The idea that faith makes for better people is one of the biggest myths out there.

rumborak

I don't think better at all. If my faith is true, and theirs too, I can relate to their decision making process. I can connect to the candidate more, I guess.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2012, 08:31:39 AM »

This. Even as an athiest, I could care less what the person running believes in, as long as they don't show people who believe what they do favoritism or belittle beliefs other than their own. I do have a problem however when a candidate's beliefs get in the way of cold hard truth. For example, Santorum's views on contraceptives and abstinence. He thinks that getting rid of contraceptives and focussing more on abstinence is what is needed to prevent teen pregnancy. Looking at a human being as a product of nature and evolution, and not as a special product of a god, will make you realize how wrong his views on the matter are.

Just pointing out a logical inconsistency.  His views are different than yours, but that doesn't mean he's "wrong".  If you won't vote for someone because he has different beliefs, more power to you, but I think it's all too easy (and counterproductive) to play the right vs. wrong game.


I'm not targeting his faith. I'm targeting his views on sex because of his faith.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2012, 08:35:32 AM »
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

I would turn the question around and ask what business someone without faith has trying to hold him/herself out as being able to properly represent a nation of people, the majority of which claim to have one faith or the other? 

But the answer to your question is not difficult, although it may be difficult to understand for one who has no faith.  Faith should permeate one's life.  It isn't something you can draw fences around and allow to influence one part of your life and not others.  So as far as what business faith has in politics, for the politician who has faith, it has every business in politics.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2012, 08:41:41 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2012, 08:43:20 AM »
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

 Faith should permeate one's life.  It isn't something you can draw fences around and allow to influence one part of your life and not others.  So as far as what business faith has in politics, for the politician who has faith, it has every business in politics.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Everyone should act on good morals regardless of what faith they have or lack. As Penn Jillette said... "My feeling about morality is that if you're doing what you're doing for reward and punishment, it's not really morality. When I'm raising my children, my job is to get my children to act in ways that are moral when there is no fear and no reward, but to do it for the sake of doing it. When you add ever lasting life as a reward, and everlasting tourment as the punishment, there can be no morality. We need to treat each other well because we love each other."
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 08:54:03 AM by Chino »

Offline rumborak

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2012, 08:44:50 AM »
I would turn the question around and ask what business someone without faith has trying to hold him/herself out as being able to properly represent a nation of people, the majority of which claim to have one faith or the other? 

I take it they need to be white too then? What business does Obama have representing this nation?

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 08:49:13 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

Happiness aside, there is a way to get along and be civilized about it, and that is for each side to stop vilifying the other for thinking differently and just let it be. 

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

 Faith should permeate one's life.  It isn't something you can draw fences around and allow to influence one part of your life and not others.  So as far as what business faith has in politics, for the politician who has faith, it has every business in politics.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Everyone should act on good morals regardless of what faith they have or lack. As Penn Jillette said... "My feeling about reality is that if you're doing what you're doing for reward and punishment, it's not really reality. When I'm raising my childre, my job is to get my children to act in ways that are moral when there is no fear and no reward, but to do it for the sake of doing it. When you add ever lasting life as a reward, and everlasting tourment as the punishment, there can be no morality. We need to treat each other well because we love each other."

Penn sometimes says some really intelligent things.  He also sometimes says some really stupid things.  While he is correct about treating each other well because we love each other, that is not mutually exclusive with treating each other well because there may be positive and/or negative consequences for how we treat each other. 

I would turn the question around and ask what business someone without faith has trying to hold him/herself out as being able to properly represent a nation of people, the majority of which claim to have one faith or the other? 

I take it they need to be white too then? What business does Obama have representing this nation?

rumborak


???  That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2012, 08:54:24 AM »
Obama is black. Blacks are a minority in the US. What business does a black person have representing the people of the United States when the majority is white?

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2012, 08:55:01 AM »

Penn sometimes says some really intelligent things.  He also sometimes says some really stupid things.  While he is correct about treating each other well because we love each other, that is not mutually exclusive with treating each other well because there may be positive and/or negative consequences for how we treat each other. 



I quoted that wrong. The two instances of the word 'reality' should say 'morailty'.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2012, 08:57:30 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

Happiness aside, there is a way to get along and be civilized about it, and that is for each side to stop vilifying the other for thinking differently and just let it be.

If only it were that easy.  Unfortunately, I don't foresee a day where that will ever be a realistic possibility.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2012, 08:58:35 AM »
I unsterstand what Rumbo was saying.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2012, 08:58:41 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

Happiness aside, there is a way to get along and be civilized about it, and that is for each side to stop vilifying the other for thinking differently and just let it be.

If only it were that easy.  Unfortunately, I don't foresee a day where that will ever be a realistic possibility.

Well, the nastiness and aggression of the GOP campaign is definitely backfiring on the candidates. Whoever the candidate is, they will need to dig themselves out of that hole.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2012, 09:00:38 AM »
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

I would turn the question around and ask what business someone without faith has trying to hold him/herself out as being able to properly represent a nation of people, the majority of which claim to have one faith or the other? 


In a country of many faiths, wouldn't a nation be better represented by someone who wasn't biased (for lack of a better term) towards one particular religion or its beliefs? I would think neutrality towards any particular faith or defined belief system would be a strength.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2012, 09:01:08 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

And I'd like to add to that that a politician that subscribes to and promotes one single faith or form of faith over another has no business doing so in politics considering we live in a nation composed of a plurality of different religious views, and unless the politician in question can embrace that plurality rather than preaching conformity, faith has no business in politics.

Edit: Ninja'd by Blob. Dammit Blob! :lol
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2012, 09:02:18 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

Happiness aside, there is a way to get along and be civilized about it, and that is for each side to stop vilifying the other for thinking differently and just let it be.

If only it were that easy.  Unfortunately, I don't foresee a day where that will ever be a realistic possibility.

Well, the nastiness and aggression of the GOP campaign is definitely backfiring on the candidates. Whoever the candidate is, they will need to dig themselves out of that hole.

rumborak

I don't think it's possible. Even if the nominee begins to get out of the hole, I guarantee that Obama is just going to dig it deeper once they go head-to-head. I'm sure Obama is just itching to call these guys out on all the shit that has been spewing out of their mouths for the last six months.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2012, 09:04:53 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

And I'd like to add to that that a politician that subscribes to and promotes one single faith or form of faith over another has no business doing so in politics considering we live in a nation composed of a plurality of different religious views, and unless the politician in question can embrace that plurality rather than preaching conformity, faith has no business in politics.

Edit: Ninja'd by Blob. Dammit Blob! :lol

This, as well as what Blob said. I have always thought an atheist who was accepting of all religious beliefs who do a much better job that someone with one set of beliefs.

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2012, 09:11:57 AM »
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike Santorum, but is this particular issue that egregious?  I'm all for the separation of church having authority over the state and vice versa, but I don't think that's what Santorum is addressing.  Rather, he's making an observation that faith has become absent in politics entirely.

What business does faith have in politics anyway?

The fact that people will vote for you becuase you have it.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2012, 09:31:24 AM »
I think all of this talk about faith in politics is overblown right now because Rick Santorum says a lot of really dumb shit.  Look, I'm a registered Democrat and pretty much a liberal tree-hugger.  That's just who I am.  I've lived through many presidents, but haven't really been involved or paid attention to politics until around the time that Reagan won reelection.  Bill Clinton, who for all of his faults was still a president who presided over the biggest economic expansion in history, was a person of faith.  And even though he did some pretty dumb shit I thought he was a good president and didn't really care about his religion, mostly because he didn't wear it on his sleeve, but also because I agreed with his policies.  So there was no reason for me to point fingers at his faith and claim that it was a problem.

Along comes George W. Bush.  A guy who I vehemently disagree with across the board on policy.  And suddenly, the temptation to lay the blame for my hatred of him and his crappy policies at the feet of his stated religious beliefs was pretty strong.  But the fact is he is just a guy who had different political views than Bill Clinton and implemented policies I found repugnant in comparison to most of Clinton's policies and at the end of the day they were both still people of faith.  One I agreed with and one I did not disagree with.

I think a lot of people get very uptight about this religion angle when the person being discussed is someone they disagree with and it's almost like a argument by proxy.  It doesn't help when you have morons like Rick Santorum saying that church/state separation make him "want to throw up."  But come on people, every president that anyone reading this has lived to know has been a person who goes to church.  A person of faith.  It's just that now you have a guy out there making some very provocative statements in an effort to whip up support from a relatively small segment of society and everyone's freaking out about it. 

We're not going to get an avowed atheist president any time soon in the United States of America.  That's just a fact of life. The best we can hope for is a person who will make good decisions based simply on what is best for the country.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If they want to believe what's written in the bible, that's on them.  All I care about is that they make good decisions that help our country.  I don't really care all that much if their decisions are informed in part by their faith.  I didn't care about it when Bill Clinton was president, so I'm not going to be a hypocrite and make it a big issue if Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum or Obama for that matter are our president.  To me, this is just a distraction.

Yes, people vote because they believe candidates share their faith.  If you're a democrat like me and you think Obama didn't get a large swath of votes because of his faith then you are deluding yourself.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2012, 09:33:53 AM »
^Good post.
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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2012, 09:44:02 AM »
And for the millions of consituents with no faith, it has no business being part of it.  Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.  Clearly no way to make everyone happy on an issue like this.

Happiness aside, there is a way to get along and be civilized about it, and that is for each side to stop vilifying the other for thinking differently and just let it be. 

No offense, but it's hard to get all warm and fuzzy over this post when you've made it pretty clear in the past that you don't think atheists should be able to hold public office at all. Especially the part about not "vilifying" the others, when you believe that belief in a God is completely incompatible with any kind of immorality which inversely means that you believe the only people who are capable of any kind of immorality are those without a belief in God (or atheists).

I agree 100% with what you just said, but I can't really get much sense of good will from it when also considering what you've said in past discussions about people with/without faith. Unless you've changed your stance since those previous posts, in which case  :heart

Offline bosk1

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Re: Santorum: "I don't believe in the separation of church and state"
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2012, 09:48:01 AM »
I think you're exaggerating what I previously posted.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."