Author Topic: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.  (Read 86673 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2012, 07:39:44 AM »
I don't even know why we're discussing this. There's a massive difference between dying for your country and dying because you're abstaining from medical help. Just because both have a "reason" doesn't mean they're equal.

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2012, 08:16:32 AM »
I don't even know why we're discussing this. There's a massive difference between dying for your country and dying because you're abstaining from medical help. Just because both have a "reason" doesn't mean they're equal.

rumborak

I'm with you, rumborak.  The comparison holds no water.

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2012, 09:01:17 AM »
I don't even know why we're discussing this. There's a massive difference between dying for your country and dying because you're abstaining from medical help. Just because both have a "reason" doesn't mean they're equal.

rumborak

I'm with you, rumborak.  The comparison holds no water.

It's like comparing rainbows and cargo ships just because they are both long.

Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2012, 09:30:13 AM »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2012, 09:35:56 AM »
 :rollin
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2012, 09:54:56 AM »
If he is a JW, and this is one of their tenants, he would be a hypocrite to forsake it for personal gain.

I mean, I don't agree with his beliefs, but I don't agree with a lot of beliefs.  But they are HIS beliefs and he is living (and possibly dying) with them, which is what he should do if they are to have any validity.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
Wow....go to sleep for 6 hours, and suddenly I can't keep up..

First a clarification:

@Nekov...  No.  The Witnesses do not believe they are going to heaven.  We believe that people are going to live forever right here on the earth in paradise.  Someday.   But...speaking for myself (and I know I'm not alone)...I don't do what I do for the reward.   That is, it is NOT the primary motivator of any witness that I know.   To do something *just* to simply get a reward is NOT a reason for anything.

It's a matter of what is right and what is wrong.  God's name has been smeared.  My heavenly father has been slandered.   My God, who let *his firstborn son die* to save my life, has been challenged.   In scripture (the first few chapters of Job, and other places as well) Satan challenges that God's servants don't *really* love him, and that anything they do for him, they only do to get a reward.    He implies that if he makes life hard for us...takes away our livelihood, our health, our family....we'll crack and turn our backs on him.    He claims that we will betray our principles and break God's laws for the sake of our own lives or the lives of our families. 

So the question becomes...will you break God's law to save your own life?     Now...I know that many of you may disagree about whether or not the blood issue is God's law or not...but I did not come to this decision lightly.    No religion told me I had to do anything.   *I* made a personal decision after careful research.   God's Word teaches that blood is sacred.  By the blood of Christ I was saved.   That carries very deep significance for me personally.   I am not going to violate what is holy just to save my own skin. 

You are free to agree or disagree.   I only point these things out to clarify.  Because people are drawing some conclusions about what Witnesses believe that are off the mark.    Repeating these misunderstandings just end up spreading misinformation. 

As far as dying for your country.   I did not mean to insult anyone.   I have the utmost respect for any man who dies for something he believes in so much.    I respect it...but I don't understand it.     You could never defend killing another human being...for any reason...using the teachings of Christ.  To the best of my ability, I live my life by his example.   He lived a life of self sacrifice, and died...not only to save anyone who would follow him...but to *set an example* for us to follow.      There is nothing that anyone can do to me that God cannot undo in the future.   My life is in his hands. 

It's actually kind of ironic that people mention WWII.  Because in that war...my brothers were being persecuted and even KILLED...just because they wouldn't go out and kill one another.     German JW's died because they wouldn't kill American JW's...and vice versa. 

People put so much stock in *their* country....or *their* homeland...or even *their* race.   These are all things that serve to divide, NOT UNITE people.   

I would never kill anyone for any reason whatsoever....nor do anyone any harm in any way unless doing so was the only way to protect myself and mine.   I am willing to die for God's principles of right and wrong.  I respect all life, including my own, and would never do anything to needlessly put my life at risk. 

Love of God...love of neighbor.   Above all else, these two things drive everything I do and believe in.   Whether that be dying over the blood issue (love of God) or refusing to go to war (love of neighbor).   
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2012, 10:13:12 AM »
If he is a JW, and this is one of their tenants, he would be a hypocrite to forsake it for personal gain.

I mean, I don't agree with his beliefs, but I don't agree with a lot of beliefs.  But they are HIS beliefs and he is living (and possibly dying) with them, which is what he should do if they are to have any validity.

That's called sacrifice.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2012, 10:30:12 AM »
Also.   I've never known any Witness...ever...to "abstain from medical help".   That just isn't true at all.   I would never "abstain from medical help"...  Refusing *ONE* form of treatment, for which there ARE alternatives...is NOT "abstaining from medical help"...  Even refusing treatment from a doctor who won't consider alternatives is not "abstaining from medical help"... It just means you are refusing a doctor who won't treat you...to look for a doctor that WILL treat you. 

I promise you that every possible option is being pursued with vigor....not just by him, but by his family and friends as well. 
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Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2012, 10:47:05 AM »
Also.   I've never known any Witness...ever...to "abstain from medical help".   That just isn't true at all.   I would never "abstain from medical help"...  Refusing *ONE* form of treatment, for which there ARE alternatives...is NOT "abstaining from medical help"...  Even refusing treatment from a doctor who won't consider alternatives is not "abstaining from medical help"... It just means you are refusing a doctor who won't treat you...to look for a doctor that WILL treat you. 

I promise you that every possible option is being pursued with vigor....not just by him, but by his family and friends as well.


I can understand that. Shame how some doctors don't care at all about your health, but thats another story. Glad, you came and cleared things up.





It's a matter of what is right and what is wrong.  God's name has been smeared.  My heavenly father has been slandered.   My God, who let *his firstborn son die* to save my life, has been challenged.   In scripture (the first few chapters of Job, and other places as well) Satan challenges that God's servants don't *really* love him, and that anything they do for him, they only do to get a reward.    He implies that if he makes life hard for us...takes away our livelihood, our health, our family....we'll crack and turn our backs on him.    He claims that we will betray our principles and break God's laws for the sake of our own lives or the lives of our families. 

So the question becomes...will you break God's law to save your own life?     Now...I know that many of you may disagree about whether or not the blood issue is God's law or not...but I did not come to this decision lightly.    No religion told me I had to do anything.   *I* made a personal decision after careful research.   God's Word teaches that blood is sacred.  By the blood of Christ I was saved.   That carries very deep significance for me personally.   I am not going to violate what is holy just to save my own skin. 

You are free to agree or disagree.   I only point these things out to clarify.  Because people are drawing some conclusions about what Witnesses believe that are off the mark.    Repeating these misunderstandings just end up spreading misinformation. 

As far as dying for your country.   I did not mean to insult anyone.   I have the utmost respect for any man who dies for something he believes in so much.    I respect it...but I don't understand it.     You could never defend killing another human being...for any reason...using the teachings of Christ.  To the best of my ability, I live my life by his example.   He lived a life of self sacrifice, and died...not only to save anyone who would follow him...but to *set an example* for us to follow.      There is nothing that anyone can do to me that God cannot undo in the future.   My life is in his hands. 

It's actually kind of ironic that people mention WWII.  Because in that war...my brothers were being persecuted and even KILLED...just because they wouldn't go out and kill one another.     German JW's died because they wouldn't kill American JW's...and vice versa. 

People put so much stock in *their* country....or *their* homeland...or even *their* race.   These are all things that serve to divide, NOT UNITE people.   

I would never kill anyone for any reason whatsoever....nor do anyone any harm in any way unless doing so was the only way to protect myself and mine.   I am willing to die for God's principles of right and wrong.  I respect all life, including my own, and would never do anything to needlessly put my life at risk. 

Love of God...love of neighbor.   Above all else, these two things drive everything I do and believe in.   Whether that be dying over the blood issue (love of God) or refusing to go to war (love of neighbor).   

This I 100% agree with. To me, all that matters is Love. Love of the creator, Love of your neighbor, Love for life.  I like what you said about the Devil testing our love and faith for God. I truly believe that is what is happening now, people lost faith after the Vietnam War, Because blood was spilled in the land of the people who first received the light. If you really look and observe all the religions around there deal with spiritual enlightening. Its sad that people don't see this, but all you can do is pray for these people that they will be accepted or live on.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2012, 05:56:51 PM »
The Witnesses do not believe they are going to heaven.  We believe that people are going to live forever right here on the earth in paradise. 
Oh, well, that explains a lot.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2012, 06:21:43 PM »
Really, hef??  Was that necessary?   If you want to take issue...I'd be happy to trade some PM's with you.   That just felt like a potshot to me. 

But if that was not your intent, I apologize for the accusation.   Just seemed a bit snarky. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2012, 06:45:06 PM »
Really, hef??  Was that necessary?   If you want to take issue...I'd be happy to trade some PM's with you.   That just felt like a potshot to me. 

But if that was not your intent, I apologize for the accusation.   Just seemed a bit snarky.
Wasn't snarky at all.  No potshots here.  I was serious, that explains a lot about your point-of-view.  That is useful knowledge.

BTW, we apparently don't agree on much theologically, but I'm glad you're here.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2012, 06:58:22 PM »
Really, hef??  Was that necessary?   If you want to take issue...I'd be happy to trade some PM's with you.   That just felt like a potshot to me. 

But if that was not your intent, I apologize for the accusation.   Just seemed a bit snarky.
Wasn't snarky at all.  No potshots here.  I was serious, that explains a lot about your point-of-view.  That is useful knowledge.

BTW, we apparently don't agree on much theologically, but I'm glad you're here.

Ok...I misunderstood, and I apologize. 

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Offline YtseJam

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2012, 09:05:47 AM »
You can prove you died protecting your family or your country. How do you prove you died because that's what God wanted? Ridiculous

Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2012, 09:32:28 AM »
You can prove you died protecting your family or your country. How do you prove you died because that's what God wanted? Ridiculous

I object to the description that I would die because that's what God wanted. 

God does not want me to die...and I have no desire to die.   God wants me to be loyal and obedient to him above all others....even in the face of death.  And the life that Jesus lived is proof of that. 

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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2012, 09:36:19 AM »
Also...in the case of dying for your country....   

Think of all the people in every country that ever existed throughout history.   They might be able to prove that they *did* die for their country...but can they prove they died for a worthy cause?    German soldiers in WWII died for their country.  But were they right to do so? 

I can prove, at the very least that I stand loyal for the cause of love....in any case. 
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2012, 10:47:15 AM »
I object to the description that I would die because that's what God wanted. 

God does not want me to die...and I have no desire to die.   God wants me to be loyal and obedient to him above all others....even in the face of death. 
This is something that bugs me about Christianity, I can't wrap my head around why a Father would want his children (us) to die for him (because of loyalty) and why this is suppose to be noble. Or why a God would demand loyalty in the first place.

Offline kári

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2012, 12:12:56 PM »
You can prove you died protecting your family or your country. How do you prove you died because that's what God wanted? Ridiculous

I object to the description that I would die because that's what God wanted. 

God does not want me to die...and I have no desire to die.   God wants me to be loyal and obedient to him above all others....even in the face of death.  And the life that Jesus lived is proof of that. 


Alright then replace "wanted" by "expected". The argument still stands.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2012, 01:26:08 PM »
Try to look at it this way.

Now again, your mileage may vary...but I raised this point in talking with someone about this exact subject.

He was objecting to the fact that in WWII, JW's were kept in concentration camps and were often executed...but they were the ONLY group that was given a choice.  Sign a piece of paper renouncing your faith, and you're free to go.  Period.  Almost no-one signed the paper, and the overwhelming majority chose to stay in the camps. 

Now, I had a co-worker start to tell me that the piece of paper was meaningless, and that he would've signed just to escape.  In his opinion, it wouldn't have changed what he believed. 

I countered by asking him if he was close to his father.   Turns out his father was his hero...the most important person in his life.    So then I asked him, "What if that piece of paper was a detailed PUBLIC SLANDER of your father as a liar and a cheat?"     

He got the point, and agreed that he would never sign such a paper...even if it meant his life. 

You might feel differently even than HE did...but *TO ME*, that's what loyalty to God means to me.    If I'm disloyal, then I prove that Satan the Devil was correct in his assertion.     Do you honestly mean to tell me that NONE of you expect a certain amount of loyalty from your children?    How would you feel if you found out your child was killed because he was defending your honor?    Obviously, you would never WISH such a thing to happen...but wouldn't it be totally different than if he sold you out and threw you under the bus to save his own skin?   

Sorry...no one is going to blackmail me into betraying God's principles.   And I feel there is no better example for my children than a good example of being true to the principles of right and wrong...and not being intimidated by those who feel otherwise.   
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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2012, 01:44:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure the JWs in the concentration camps were there because of their active resistance (though non violent) against hitler. I don't think it really had much to do with simply BEING a JW.


But it does make me respect you guys more than the other christian groups who sat around and yawned at the time.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2012, 01:53:19 PM »
I'm pretty sure the JWs in the concentration camps were there because of their active resistance (though non violent) against hitler. I don't think it really had much to do with simply BEING a JW.


But it does make me respect you guys more than the other christian groups who sat around and yawned at the time.

It's almost semantics.   JW's only count those who are "active"...   Bear that in mind when you see their numbers.   It's not like in Catholicism where you're baptized as a baby and they still count you, even if you've never been to church.   JW's only count *active preachers*...you couldn't actively preach in WWII Germany, and not be (at the very least) a wanted man. 

The same was true in cold war-era Russia as well.    In that case...sometimes entire families were shipped to Siberia for refusing to deny God. 
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Offline j

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2012, 05:11:36 PM »
Try to look at it this way.

Now again, your mileage may vary...but I raised this point in talking with someone about this exact subject.

He was objecting to the fact that in WWII, JW's were kept in concentration camps and were often executed...but they were the ONLY group that was given a choice.  Sign a piece of paper renouncing your faith, and you're free to go.  Period.  Almost no-one signed the paper, and the overwhelming majority chose to stay in the camps. 

Now, I had a co-worker start to tell me that the piece of paper was meaningless, and that he would've signed just to escape.  In his opinion, it wouldn't have changed what he believed. 

I countered by asking him if he was close to his father.   Turns out his father was his hero...the most important person in his life.    So then I asked him, "What if that piece of paper was a detailed PUBLIC SLANDER of your father as a liar and a cheat?"     

He got the point, and agreed that he would never sign such a paper...even if it meant his life. 

You might feel differently even than HE did...but *TO ME*, that's what loyalty to God means to me.    If I'm disloyal, then I prove that Satan the Devil was correct in his assertion.     Do you honestly mean to tell me that NONE of you expect a certain amount of loyalty from your children?    How would you feel if you found out your child was killed because he was defending your honor?    Obviously, you would never WISH such a thing to happen...but wouldn't it be totally different than if he sold you out and threw you under the bus to save his own skin?   

Sorry...no one is going to blackmail me into betraying God's principles.   And I feel there is no better example for my children than a good example of being true to the principles of right and wrong...and not being intimidated by those who feel otherwise.

I've always found it hard to believe that God would actually prefer you to throw away his most precious gift in such a manner.  Does signing a piece of paper constitute *actually* renouncing your beliefs?  Would you really cease to be a JW if somebody made you write "I renounce my religion" at gunpoint?

If it were slanderous claims about me, I would prefer my child sign the damn scrap of paper, which is meaningless in the grand scheme, and go on living.  He should know that if I'm ostracized or whatever because of it, it's a price I'm gladly willing to pay in exchange for his life.

The whole laying down your life for refusing to superficially decry a principle is considered a noble cliche, but I'm not entirely sure why.

-J

Offline jammindude

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »
I'm probably getting off track here...but I honestly don't view myself as belonging to "a religion".     I know, I know, I know...we're just talking semantics here...but that is honestly the way I feel.   

I don't belong to "a religion whose title is 'Jehovah's Witnesses'"...     It is *who I am*.      My life is centralized (to the best of my imperfect ability) on bearing witness about the creator of the universe (whose name is Jehovah) who is the father of Jesus Christ, whose example I try my darndest to imitate.    I *am* one of Jehovah's Witnesses.   

So you see...it has nothing to do with "a group" or "a religion"...    I would think it would be cowardly to betray ones principles of right and wrong.   If you allow someone else to blackmail you into betraying the basic principles of right and wrong...don't you fall under THEIR control?   Havn't you just succumbed to what boils down to emotional terrorism?     

Better yet, if a prisoner of war is captured...what would you expect of him?   What is he considered to be if he betrays his principles to save his life?  What is he if he dies because he refused to betray those principles?    By your reasoning...he's a hero if he betrays his country.   
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Offline j

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2012, 07:01:33 PM »
So you see...it has nothing to do with "a group" or "a religion"...    I would think it would be cowardly to betray ones principles of right and wrong.   If you allow someone else to blackmail you into betraying the basic principles of right and wrong...don't you fall under THEIR control?   Havn't you just succumbed to what boils down to emotional terrorism?

I'm saying that you're not "betraying" anything by writing something on a piece of paper under duress, and that it isn't worth wasting your life over.  Think of all the good things you could do with the remainder of the life you would throw away!  That alone should be enough to at least make you think twice about such a situation, I would think.

Quote
Better yet, if a prisoner of war is captured...what would you expect of him?   What is he considered to be if he betrays his principles to save his life?  What is he if he dies because he refused to betray those principles?    By your reasoning...he's a hero if he betrays his country.

Well, I never said anybody was a "hero" either way.  As for this particular scenario, you'll have to be more specific.  If a person gives up sensitive state information which he is privy to, and which could put other lives in danger, then that's obviously different from writing "I don't believe in God" on a paper to appease some snickering Nazis, and then (presumably) not being executed, and then going on to continue believing in God and doing his work.  But it isn't such a simple analogy.

-J

Offline kári

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2012, 03:23:20 AM »
Try to look at it this way.

Now again, your mileage may vary...but I raised this point in talking with someone about this exact subject.

He was objecting to the fact that in WWII, JW's were kept in concentration camps and were often executed...but they were the ONLY group that was given a choice.  Sign a piece of paper renouncing your faith, and you're free to go.  Period.  Almost no-one signed the paper, and the overwhelming majority chose to stay in the camps. 

Now, I had a co-worker start to tell me that the piece of paper was meaningless, and that he would've signed just to escape.  In his opinion, it wouldn't have changed what he believed. 

I countered by asking him if he was close to his father.   Turns out his father was his hero...the most important person in his life.    So then I asked him, "What if that piece of paper was a detailed PUBLIC SLANDER of your father as a liar and a cheat?"     

He got the point, and agreed that he would never sign such a paper...even if it meant his life. 

You might feel differently even than HE did...but *TO ME*, that's what loyalty to God means to me.    If I'm disloyal, then I prove that Satan the Devil was correct in his assertion.     Do you honestly mean to tell me that NONE of you expect a certain amount of loyalty from your children?    How would you feel if you found out your child was killed because he was defending your honor?    Obviously, you would never WISH such a thing to happen...but wouldn't it be totally different than if he sold you out and threw you under the bus to save his own skin?   

Sorry...no one is going to blackmail me into betraying God's principles.   And I feel there is no better example for my children than a good example of being true to the principles of right and wrong...and not being intimidated by those who feel otherwise.   
How can you possibly compare signing "I renounce my religion" to a detailed public slander of your father? Those are 2 completely different things.

You and me go parallel, together and apart

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2012, 04:18:16 AM »
How can you say they aren't comparable?
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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2012, 04:48:52 AM »
Well everything is comparable.. You know what I meant.

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2012, 05:00:06 AM »
I'm not sure I do.  That's why I asked. 

A commitment is a commitment.  And a person's faith should be their foundational commitment.  If you aren't willing to stand up for your faith, and take the consequences that come with that, then you don't really have any faith.  I disagree with some of jammindude's theology, but I agree with him wholeheartedly on this particular topic.
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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2012, 05:03:01 AM »
Surely a God that would expect you to do that for him is not all loving. Also, if I ever get to be a father, I'd prefer a public slander of myself to the death of my child. And I'm sure my father sees this the same way.

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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2012, 05:28:40 AM »
Surely a God that would expect you to do that for him is not all loving. Also, if I ever get to be a father, I'd prefer a public slander of myself to the death of my child. And I'm sure my father sees this the same way.

yes, especially if that father is an immortal being, why would he care about earthly vices such as honour, guilt, status..etc.

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2012, 08:06:32 AM »
Surely a God that would expect you to do that for him is not all loving. Also, if I ever get to be a father, I'd prefer a public slander of myself to the death of my child. And I'm sure my father sees this the same way.

The Christian God doesn't see it as the "death" of His child.

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2012, 10:16:48 AM »
Surely a God that would expect you to do that for him is not all loving. Also, if I ever get to be a father, I'd prefer a public slander of myself to the death of my child. And I'm sure my father sees this the same way.

The Christian God doesn't see it as the "death" of His child.


This is key.   Jesus was raised from the dead.   

And I could not disagree more with the statement that honor is an "earthly vice"...honor is a commandment from God.    Not a formalistic "honor"...going through the motions of honor is not truly honor.   But a deep sense of respect.   The Hebrew word for honor came from a word meaning "heaviness"...and the Greek word (ti-me') translated "honor" carries the meaning of "esteem", "value", "preciousness"...and the verb (ti-ma'o) can also mean "set a price on"...and the adjective (ti'mi-os) can mean "dear or valuable" or "precious"...

Honor is spoken of many times in the Scriptures and is a quality that Jesus had towards his father...which is why he was willing to die for what is right.   He also trusted his father that he would be raised from the dead, which he was.   

Pain and suffering is never something that God wishes upon us...but *anything* that others do to us, *HE CAN UNDO*...provided we are loyal. 

I *did* say that you may not feel the same way...but the co-worker that I spoke to immediately understood what I was talking about.   So I know that this is not isolated to just "religious people"...
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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2012, 02:29:04 PM »
Surely a God that would expect you to do that for him is not all loving.
I don't think it has anything to do with what God would expect of me.  It has to do with what I would expect of myself for my God.
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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2012, 08:35:11 PM »
I'm not sure I do.  That's why I asked. 

A commitment is a commitment.  And a person's faith should be their foundational commitment.  If you aren't willing to stand up for your faith, and take the consequences that come with that, then you don't really have any faith.  I disagree with some of jammindude's theology, but I agree with him wholeheartedly on this particular topic.

I completely agree. Which is why I'd wager about 75% or more of Christians in this country really don't have any faith at all, but that's for a different topic.
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