Author Topic: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.  (Read 86656 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #175 on: February 29, 2012, 01:52:00 PM »
Atheists still believe in law and punishment, just not supernatural law and punishment. And that's still irrelevant to believing in morals. For example: I don't rape women because I know it's wrong and a sick, heinous act, not because I'm afraid of going to prison.

But many people don't do certain things only because it's against the law and/or opposed by society. For example, if I could go invisible, I would chill out all day in the changing room of Victoria's secret. The only reason I don't do this in the real world is because I don't need a heel to the nuts or an ass kicking by some boyfriend waiting outside the store. I think similar examples, and other acts people call moral, are all kept in check by the restraints society as a whole puts on us. If people were given the power to not be seen by other members of society, we'd be amazed at all the crazy shit people would do.

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #176 on: February 29, 2012, 02:20:22 PM »
Atheists still believe in law and punishment, just not supernatural law and punishment. And that's still irrelevant to believing in morals. For example: I don't rape women because I know it's wrong and a sick, heinous act, not because I'm afraid of going to prison.

But many people don't do certain things only because it's against the law and/or opposed by society. For example, if I could go invisible, I would chill out all day in the changing room of Victoria's secret. The only reason I don't do this in the real world is because I don't need a heel to the nuts or an ass kicking by some boyfriend waiting outside the store. I think similar examples, and other acts people call moral, are all kept in check by the restraints society as a whole puts on us. If people were given the power to not be seen by other members of society, we'd be amazed at all the crazy shit people would do.
Sure. But what does any of that have to do with what you believe?

You and me go parallel, together and apart

Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #177 on: February 29, 2012, 02:21:27 PM »
Atheists still believe in law and punishment, just not supernatural law and punishment. And that's still irrelevant to believing in morals. For example: I don't rape women because I know it's wrong and a sick, heinous act, not because I'm afraid of going to prison.

But many people don't do certain things only because it's against the law and/or opposed by society. For example, if I could go invisible, I would chill out all day in the changing room of Victoria's secret. The only reason I don't do this in the real world is because I don't need a heel to the nuts or an ass kicking by some boyfriend waiting outside the store. I think similar examples, and other acts people call moral, are all kept in check by the restraints society as a whole puts on us. If people were given the power to not be seen by other members of society, we'd be amazed at all the crazy shit people would do.

Exactly.

And if I was knew or was convinced I could get away with killing somebody and stealing their money, why shouldn't I, if it would ultimately be in my self-interest for wealth or pleasure, knowing or being convinced I would avoid inconvienient treatment under law or social repercussions?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #178 on: February 29, 2012, 02:24:53 PM »
The human conscience's moral disposition is in alignment with Christianity. Therefore Christianity is wrong

Maaaaan, H, wtf. Nobody is saying that.

Christianity isn't wrong. Christianity just isn't the cause.
I'm assuming you know what the genetic fallacy is, so I'm not going to bothering elaborating other than saying: "genetic fallacy"
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Offline Sigz

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #179 on: February 29, 2012, 02:30:17 PM »
Atheists still believe in law and punishment, just not supernatural law and punishment. And that's still irrelevant to believing in morals. For example: I don't rape women because I know it's wrong and a sick, heinous act, not because I'm afraid of going to prison.

But many people don't do certain things only because it's against the law and/or opposed by society. For example, if I could go invisible, I would chill out all day in the changing room of Victoria's secret. The only reason I don't do this in the real world is because I don't need a heel to the nuts or an ass kicking by some boyfriend waiting outside the store. I think similar examples, and other acts people call moral, are all kept in check by the restraints society as a whole puts on us. If people were given the power to not be seen by other members of society, we'd be amazed at all the crazy shit people would do.

Exactly.

And if I was knew or was convinced I could get away with killing somebody and stealing their money, why shouldn't I, if it would ultimately be in my self-interest for wealth or pleasure, knowing or being convinced I would avoid inconvienient treatment under law or social repercussions?

Jesus christ dude, it's called a conscience.
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Online Adami

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #180 on: February 29, 2012, 02:32:40 PM »
How are we BACK on the morality argument? God damn.






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Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #181 on: February 29, 2012, 02:34:04 PM »
How are we BACK on the morality argument? God damn.

Uh

You guys started discussing it again. What, am I not allowed to partake in the discussion anymore?
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Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #182 on: February 29, 2012, 02:35:05 PM »
Jesus christ dude, it's called a conscience.


And why follow our conscience when it goes against self-interest or serves for inconvenience?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #183 on: February 29, 2012, 02:36:32 PM »
Because it's built into me?

Does it really kill you to not see your favorite religion as the cause of everything good?

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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #184 on: February 29, 2012, 02:37:16 PM »
How are we BACK on the morality argument? God damn.






Kid = You guys
Escalator = Morality Argument
Jason Lee = Me
You could say we're going up the downstair
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #185 on: February 29, 2012, 02:42:37 PM »
Because it's built into me?

Not sure if you're serious. You should follow your conscience and an illusory, meaningless, fabricated moral code even when they go against self-interest and even when it would inconvenience you because its "built into you"?

Talk about lacking philosophical and logical foundations...


Does it really kill you to not see your favorite religion as the cause of everything good?

rumborak

Not at all. Most of us theists don't even see "religion" as the source of our moral landscape.

This particular comment is a waste of cyberspace.
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Online Adami

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #186 on: February 29, 2012, 02:44:24 PM »
Because it's built into me?

Does it really kill you to not see your favorite religion as the cause of everything good?

rumborak

From a psychodynamic or general psychological point of view, it's not so much built into us as it is a normal part of development. Children don't generally have a conscience until they further develop. However, some of us never develop that. Freud called it the superego. I'd venture to say most politicians/businessmen and so forth never really developed one. It seems "the end" here never developed one either, which is why he can't possibly conceive of one.
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Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #187 on: February 29, 2012, 02:47:31 PM »
Please stop making baseless, worthless assumptions about my conscience. It's just silly.

You are missing the main point while it festers under you nose. Or maybe you just farted. No way to know for sure.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #188 on: February 29, 2012, 02:52:19 PM »
I am having an extremely difficult time following what we're arguing about. Are people saying "We have a conscience, and should therefore follow it"? I'm very confused.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Online Adami

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #189 on: February 29, 2012, 02:53:38 PM »
I'm very confused.

You and me both brotha.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #190 on: February 29, 2012, 02:53:41 PM »
Please stop making baseless, worthless assumptions about my conscience. It's just silly.

Like it or not, there is very little other conclusions left at this point. Let's summarize:

a) Atheists are godlessly moral, through whatever mechanism
b) You claim yourself that without God you would be an immoral person

I can see no other conclusion than that you are missing something we possess. Either innate or developed, you need "external" help for something we don't.

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Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #191 on: February 29, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »
I am having an extremely difficult time following what we're arguing about. Are people saying "We have a conscience, and should therefore follow it"? I'm very confused.

Yes.

Yet no satisfying answer can be provided as to "why" we should.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #192 on: February 29, 2012, 02:56:09 PM »
Atheists don't love God. Atheists are immoral in that respect.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline ehra

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #193 on: February 29, 2012, 02:56:22 PM »
So basically you're complaining that people don't say "in my opinion" before saying they think something is terrible, which should be implied anyway when you've already established that they view morals as objective. What is this, general music?

The entire basis of your argument hinges on some elusive strawman that has no idea what the words subjective and objective even mean.

This will likely be my last post on the matter (wouldn't want to get banned, now, would I), but I've made my point fairly clear. It is insulting to be repeatedly misrepresented or misunderstood with such consistency. And let's not pull out the dictionary on "subjective" and "objective" again, shan't we?

Since apparently this wasn't your last post on the matter (is it ever when people say this?), I didn't misunderstand your argument at all. The entire foundation of this supposed "contradiction" you've set up is some strawman that says morals are subjective while claiming theirs are objectively right. Anyone who thinks morals are subjective obviously doesn't think their beliefs are objectively right, and you're just complaining about semantics. This is your argument:

"ICP is rad."
"No they're not, they're terrible."
"But musical taste is subjective."
"Yeah. And ICP is terrible."
"See; you're trying to say your opinion is fact!"

Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #194 on: February 29, 2012, 02:56:47 PM »
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Offline Sigz

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #195 on: February 29, 2012, 03:01:39 PM »
I am having an extremely difficult time following what we're arguing about. Are people saying "We have a conscience, and should therefore follow it"? I'm very confused.

Yes.

Yet no satisfying answer can be provided as to "why" we should.

Why do I follow my conscience? Because it makes me happy to do so. The simple fact is if I were to kill someone for money or whatever, I would feel really, really bad. Sure I may be in a better position in life, but I wouldn't be happy and that's much more important to me. I really don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
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Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #196 on: February 29, 2012, 03:02:37 PM »
a) Atheists are godlessly moral, through whatever mechanism

Through an illusory and meaningless, subjective moral code that no one is objectively obligated to recognize or follow.

b) You claim yourself that without God you would be an immoral person

I've spent the last 2 or 3 pages vehemently denying that. I claim that without belief in God, you may very well be a great moral agent, yet the problem is that by denying any transcendent and objective anchor to morality, you are lost in a sea of socio-cultural, biological moral relativism. An atheist can be just as moral or even more so than a theist, yet the atheists' reasons for adhering to a moral code are either illusory and meaningless or completely absent.

I can see no other conclusion than that you are missing something we possess. Either innate or developed, you need "external" help for something we don't.

rumborak


You can assert that moral values simply exist as abstract entities (indeed you already have done so in a few pages back). Yet this leads to Moral Platonism, for which I have already provided three reasons for why it is both unintelligible and unfeasible.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #197 on: February 29, 2012, 03:07:41 PM »
a) Atheists are godlessly moral, through whatever mechanism

Through an illusory and meaningless, subjective moral code that no one is objectively obligated to recognize or follow.

Dude, seriously:

You have some problem. I have no idea what it is, but dude, you have a problem. Maybe you desperately need the ego-boost these assertions give you, maybe you are unsure about your own faith. Whatever it is, I don't know, but I also don't really care at this point.

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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #198 on: February 29, 2012, 03:08:51 PM »
I'm out on this thread.  It's become a cluster.  I just want a real conversation on belief and the influence it has on people and their thought processes and this has deteriorated rapidly into silliness.

Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #199 on: February 29, 2012, 03:13:58 PM »
a) Atheists are godlessly moral, through whatever mechanism

Through an illusory and meaningless, subjective moral code that no one is objectively obligated to recognize or follow.

Dude, seriously:

You have some problem. I have no idea what it is, but dude, you have a problem.

rumborak

He's correct though. You're saying atheists are godlessly moral. There's two major problems with that.

1) Although atheists will agree on their unbelief in a god, they're not in agreement elsewhere. One atheist might think it's important to protect animals from harm, and another's a butcher that finds nothing wrong with it. They can't both be moral - that's contradictory.

2) You're defining the term "moral" so that it fits in the statement "Atheists are moral". But if you believe morality is subjective, you could literally say anything is "moral" and be correct about it. So it's really no conclusion at all.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #200 on: February 29, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »
I am having an extremely difficult time following what we're arguing about. Are people saying "We have a conscience, and should therefore follow it"? I'm very confused.

Yes.

Yet no satisfying answer can be provided as to "why" we should.

Why do I follow my conscience? Because it makes me happy to do so. The simple fact is if I were to kill someone for money or whatever, I would feel really, really bad. Sure I may be in a better position in life, but I wouldn't be happy and that's much more important to me. I really don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

Yet under this worldview, the reason you would feel bad would be meaningless. You would only feel guilt (or really, really bad) simply because your socio-cultural upbringing has convinced you that guilt should be felt when a murder is committed.

Besides, what is happy to you may be happy to someone else. If the goal of life is to be happy and what makes one happy is entirely subjective, then who are you to condemn the loon who claim that he derives happiness from rape and murder?
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Offline Implode

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #201 on: February 29, 2012, 03:19:54 PM »
How about:

I do nice things for people because making others happy makes me happy. It probably makes me happy due to some combination of evolution and epigenetics.

Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #202 on: February 29, 2012, 03:21:07 PM »
a) Atheists are godlessly moral, through whatever mechanism

Through an illusory and meaningless, subjective moral code that no one is objectively obligated to recognize or follow.

Dude, seriously:

You have some problem. I have no idea what it is, but dude, you have a problem. Maybe you desperately need the ego-boost these assertions give you, maybe you are unsure about your own faith. Whatever it is, I don't know, but I also don't really care at this point.

rumborak

Rumborak, always enjoying your wit and general logical contributions, I'm rather disappointed that you are avoiding this most ancient and important philosophical issue with such gutless resorts to deflecting and unrelated personal forays.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #203 on: February 29, 2012, 03:21:28 PM »
I rape orphans because it makes me all tingly inside. I love it. Therefore raping orphans is OK.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #204 on: February 29, 2012, 03:22:12 PM »
1) Although atheists will agree on their unbelief in a god, they're not in agreement elsewhere. One atheist might think it's important to protect animals from harm, and another's a butcher that finds nothing wrong with it. They can't both be moral - that's contradictory.

What's the difference to you guys? There's Christians who view it as moral to stand at other people's funerals and yell "God hates fags".

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2) You're defining the term "moral" so that it fits in the statement "Atheists are moral". But if you believe morality is subjective, you could literally say anything is "moral" and be correct about it. So it's really no conclusion at all.

It's a contract, like any other contract. Outside of the community that agreed on it, it bears no meaning. With your argument no contract between two companies would ever be worth the paper it is written on. And yet, omg, the companies keep each other in check (through internal checks and outside agencies that enforce it) to abide by the contract.
In the moral world, these things are called peer pressure and trials in court (once again through peers who enforce the agreed-upon morals).

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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #205 on: February 29, 2012, 03:27:48 PM »
1) Although atheists will agree on their unbelief in a god, they're not in agreement elsewhere. One atheist might think it's important to protect animals from harm, and another's a butcher that finds nothing wrong with it. They can't both be moral - that's contradictory.

What's the difference to you guys? There's Christians who view it as moral to stand at other people's funerals and yell "God hates fags".
If you got the impression that I think that "Christians are moral" then you are mistaken. I'm saying that "Christianity is morality" basically. Separating the ideal from the individual.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Chino

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #206 on: February 29, 2012, 03:27:51 PM »
a) Atheists are godlessly moral, through whatever mechanism

Through an illusory and meaningless, subjective moral code that no one is objectively obligated to recognize or follow.


More illusory than a diety that has given no concrete proof of its existence in any form other than a few eyewitness accounts of people roughly 20,000 years after modern man originated, and 2 million years after the homo genus emerged?

Offline Sigz

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #207 on: February 29, 2012, 03:28:21 PM »
Yet under this worldview, the reason you would feel bad would be meaningless. You would only feel guilt (or really, really bad) simply because your socio-cultural upbringing has convinced you that guilt should be felt when a murder is committed.

Well, upbringing and biological instincts. But either way, so what? I can't help how I feel or what makes me happy/sad - no one can. In the end all of our feelings are meaningless.


Besides, what is happy to you may be happy to someone else. If the goal of life is to be happy and what makes one happy is entirely subjective, then who are you to condemn the loon who claim that he derives happiness from rape and murder?


Jesus, this has been covered a million times. I can condemn murder the same I can say that Awake is a terrible album - by acknowledging it's just my opinion. The reason the guy who gets off on killing people should be locked up has nothing to do with what's 'moral' and everything to do with keeping our society running smoothly.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #208 on: February 29, 2012, 03:29:45 PM »
Why is keeping our society running smoothly important?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Omega

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Re: This is one of the biggest problems I have with religious beliefs.
« Reply #209 on: February 29, 2012, 03:30:14 PM »
More illusory than a diety that has given no concrete proof of its existence in any form other than a few eyewitness accounts of people roughly 20,000 years after modern man originated, and 2 million years after the homo genus emerged?

I truly hope you don't think that amounted to anything that even resembles an intelligible argument against the existence of God.

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