Author Topic: Should We Reinstate the Draft?  (Read 4677 times)

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Offline antigoon

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Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« on: February 22, 2012, 07:51:43 PM »
What if we did? I always hear people my age saying "oh man, could you imagine if there was a draft? That would be terrible." I'm not so sure about that. It's easy to be apathetic or even support a war that doesn't affect you in any direct way. Reinstating the draft would be a way to make the entire population feel the devastating effects of war. It seems our Congressmen would be far more reluctant to beat the war drums if they knew there was a chance of their kid or nephew getting sent to die due to their actions.

The biggest lesson the federal government seems to have learned from Vietnam is that compulsory military service pisses off a lot of people when they don't feel the cause is just. It was really a brilliant move to do away with that.

Anyway, I know it will never happen, but what do you guys think? Would it change anything?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:04:09 PM by antigoon »

Offline ResultsMayVary

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 08:05:00 PM »
If we happened to find ourselves in a war that is actually declared by our government (or we get declared on), then I wouldn't have a problem with the draft being re-instated. Now before you go all crazy on me, i'm 19 years old and this would directly affect me. Although, I would just volunteer before my card is drafted so I could choose my branch. I'd be willing to serve my country if we were at war. If they re-instated the draft during a time of [relative] peace like today, then I would still go, but I wouldn't be too happy about it. We're just fighting a series of undeclared wars at the moment and our country does not need a massive addition to the armed forces at this time.

So, to answer your question:

Should we re-instate the draft? Not now.

Should we re-instate the draft if we get involved in declared war of some kind? Yes, if our country needs people to defend it.

EDIT: It could happen in the future, but I only think it will ever happen if the USA is in some pretty thick trouble, militarily. We have a decently-sized, but sophisticated armed forces right now that could handle most situations. The only situation I can see where the draft could be re-instated was a total war situation.
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Online Chino

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 08:10:29 PM »
A draft would never happen again. With the way wars are fought these day, it is no longer necessary to go to war. If a war started, and Americans felt that we were truly under threat, unlike the iraq war, we would see plenty of volunteers.

If a draft was reinstated, there would be mass protests unlike anything that I think we have seen before. Thousands of drafted persons would gather and refuse to go. I certainly wouldn't go.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 08:11:03 PM »
I'd have zero problem with it, if I didn't think our leaders would see it as an infinite influx of disposable bodies to do with as they pleased.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »
Another question. If the draft was never done away with, what do you think the last 12 years would have looked like regarding our foreign engagements?

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 08:16:59 PM »
Another question. If the draft was never done away with, what do you think the last 12 years would have looked like regarding our foreign engagements?

I don't think much different. But that all depends on if the soldiers still got paid, and what benefits they got. In regards to numbers over seas, I don't think it would have been a whole lot different. With one predator drone, we match the power of literally hundreds of soldiers from WW2

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 08:29:10 PM »
I'd be fine with a draft under a few conditions.

1. Medical problems get you out.
2. Being in college/graduate school gets you out.
3. Being an educator gets you out.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 08:32:11 PM »
I think I have a problem with your second one. Exempting college/grad students would mean a disproportionate number of poor, underrepresented folks who don't have the means for schooling would be shipped off, leaving us with a problem similar to the one we have now. Theoretically, a draft would level the playing field, so to speak.

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 08:37:10 PM »
I think I have a problem with your second one. Exempting college/grad students would mean a disproportionate number of poor, underrepresented folks who don't have the means for schooling would be shipped off, leaving us with a problem similar to the one we have now. Theoretically, a draft would level the playing field, so to speak.

This is true, however it would also take those "poor/uneducated" people and give them jobs, a good amount of money and free education. Ignoring 2 would also take people who could potentially help this country and get rid of them.

Other countries who have drafts generally have that rule, and it works out fine.
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Online Chino

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 09:01:27 PM »
I think I have a problem with your second one. Exempting college/grad students would mean a disproportionate number of poor, underrepresented folks who don't have the means for schooling would be shipped off, leaving us with a problem similar to the one we have now. Theoretically, a draft would level the playing field, so to speak.

This is true, however it would also take those "poor/uneducated" people and give them jobs, a good amount of money and free education. Ignoring 2 would also take people who could potentially help this country and get rid of them.

Other countries who have drafts generally have that rule, and it works out fine.

If the draft is reinstated, would the poor have 'jobs'? If a draft is put into affect, it has to be because many bodies are needed. I highly doubt that the guys fighting would get paid what they do today.

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 09:07:01 PM »
Well obviously if you go into this thinking that fighting in the army is the worst possible thing to do and will only result in miserableness, then yes....whoever gets drafted won't get much out of it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 10:12:26 PM »
I'm perfectly cool with it, says the childless 41 year old.   :biggrin:

I will point out that one of the arguments for it is highly flawed.  The politicians who send kids off to fight in stupid wars have the power to get their own spawn out of them.  Either they get them off the hook completely, or they use their pull to swing them cushy gigs where they won't get killed, but can still earn some street cred for their future political ambitions.

Furthermore, and here comes the cynical side of me, if you eliminate the college bound from the draft and draw a larger number of poor, underrepresented folk, then I suspect the willingness to see them get killed attacking Iran or some dipshit will likely increase.  I'd be willing to bet that the lives of volunteers and college boys are treated a lot less cavalierly than a whole mess of drafted black kids by TPTB.  Frankly I have a hard time imagining that our current politicians have become more compassionate and thoughtful than their Vietnam era counterparts. 
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 10:19:10 PM »
I think I have a problem with your second one. Exempting college/grad students would mean a disproportionate number of poor, underrepresented folks who don't have the means for schooling would be shipped off, leaving us with a problem similar to the one we have now. Theoretically, a draft would level the playing field, so to speak.

I could be wrong, but isn't that what happened with the Iraq War anyway? IIRC, a bunch of people who weren't able to go on to higher education for some reason or another ended up joining voluntarily because it meant work and a GI Bill to get them past that hump should they decide to go back to school.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 10:22:20 PM »
I think I have a problem with your second one. Exempting college/grad students would mean a disproportionate number of poor, underrepresented folks who don't have the means for schooling would be shipped off, leaving us with a problem similar to the one we have now. Theoretically, a draft would level the playing field, so to speak.

I could be wrong, but isn't that what happened with the Iraq War anyway? IIRC, a bunch of people who weren't able to go on to higher education for some reason or another ended up joining voluntarily because it meant work and a GI Bill to get them past that hump should they decide to go back to school.

That's what I thought went down.  That and guys voluntarily joining just because they already wanted to serve in the first place. 

I think there's no need for a draft, unless the demand for soldiers proves greater than the amount already in the service and the influx of volunteers. 

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 10:23:43 PM »
Besides, don't we still have many many thousands of reserves that have not been deployed even?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2012, 10:33:19 PM »
I think his point wasn't that one is needed, but that one might prevent the cavalier decisions to go off invading stuff.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2012, 10:37:44 PM »
I thought invasions and such are primarily the gov. viewing groups/events as being threats to its oversea interests.  I doubt the demographics of the soldiers in the reserve would have much of an influence on whether or not that happens. 

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2012, 11:17:10 PM »
I thought invasions and such are primarily the gov. viewing groups/events as being threats to its oversea interests.  I doubt the demographics of the soldiers in the reserve would have much of an influence on whether or not that happens.

If a much larger portion of the population is directly placing their lives on the line for their country, and, by extension, there is a much larger group of soldier's relatives who care about the welfare of their military kin, that would mean many more people would have a direct personal interest in whether or not the country is at war, which would most certainly have a direct impact on the general population's perspective of military action.  It's one thing to say "XXXXX country is a threat to America, we should go take them out!", but when your life or the life of someone you love is involved, you tend to be much less brash about turning to violence as the first option.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 01:45:50 AM »
I think his point wasn't that one is needed, but that one might prevent the cavalier decisions to go off invading stuff.
Yup.

I thought invasions and such are primarily the gov. viewing groups/events as being threats to its oversea interests.  I doubt the demographics of the soldiers in the reserve would have much of an influence on whether or not that happens.

If a much larger portion of the population is directly placing their lives on the line for their country, and, by extension, there is a much larger group of soldier's relatives who care about the welfare of their military kin, that would mean many more people would have a direct personal interest in whether or not the country is at war, which would most certainly have a direct impact on the general population's perspective of military action.  It's one thing to say "XXXXX country is a threat to America, we should go take them out!", but when your life or the life of someone you love is involved, you tend to be much less brash about turning to violence as the first option.
This is what I'm leaning toward. And you make good points, Barto. I still think it would make them at least think twice, though.

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 02:21:39 AM »
I understand that it would effect citizens' feelings in that way.  I may have phrased unclearly what my main statement was; apologies, if thats the case.  What I was going more for is that I doubt the government would particularly care about the public's worry about their Kim in the service, should it decide to get involved in war.  It seems that when the gov. is dead set on war, it'll go for it, regardless of the public's approval or non-approval, draft or no draft.  It seems that public opposition can only do so much to, well, oppose a war, and seems to usually only really result in a pulling out after dome many years of involvement, or the involvement ends as a result of the war itself reaching a conclusive outcome.  Not to say involvement in war is always bad, nor that public opposition to war is always right, of course.  Apologies ahead of time, if that ramble strayed too far off topic.

Anyhow, back to the draft.   If the U.S. is involved in a war, I'd say it should make use of all currently-serving personnel and volunteers as necessary, until it is an absolute necessity to bring in more staff through a draft.  The draft really ought to be reserved as a last resort.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 02:30:15 AM by MasterShakezula »

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 04:12:10 AM »
I understand that it would effect citizens' feelings in that way.  I may have phrased unclearly what my main statement was; apologies, if thats the case.  What I was going more for is that I doubt the government would particularly care about the public's worry about their Kim in the service, should it decide to get involved in war.  It seems that when the gov. is dead set on war, it'll go for it, regardless of the public's approval or non-approval, draft or no draft.  It seems that public opposition can only do so much to, well, oppose a war, and seems to usually only really result in a pulling out after dome many years of involvement, or the involvement ends as a result of the war itself reaching a conclusive outcome.  Not to say involvement in war is always bad, nor that public opposition to war is always right, of course.  Apologies ahead of time, if that ramble strayed too far off topic.

All of that is based off the current political climate, with a relatively small but highly mechanized and elite volunteer army.  The actual size of the US military is actually very small when you consider the total population of the nation.  The US can afford to have a volunteer-only army for a number of reasons, but most notably:
1)Lack of any real land threats on it's home continent
and:
2)Maintaining the cutting edge in military technology and mechanized warfare limits the need for large numbers of able bodied field troops

When you have a volunteer military that is highly mechanized, combined with a geographical positioning wherein the vast majority on conflicts will take place far away from your home soil, the vast majority of the populace has little to no conception of the realities of war.  There has not been a major conflict fought on the North American continent in about a century and a half, so for much of the American population, war is something that happens only in far away place and has very little impact on their daily lives.

This situation gives politicians a lot of lassitude with their aggressive foreign agendas, and for the past few decades it has been rather easy to goad the American people into accepting war on a foreign power, made all the more simple by the ignorance most Americans have of the wider world.  Having an elite volunteer army removes much of the direct emotional connection much of the American populace would have to a potential conflict.  Vietnam was the last time vast numbers of American troops were thrust into battle in a foreign land in a conflict which, really, was of little consequence to the average American, and it was a domestic disaster. 

Post-1975, the US military has gone to great lengths to maximize automation within combat while simultaneously minimizing the number of actually human beings needed in a conflicts, as well as shielding those soldiers from direct combat as much as possible.  With so few Americans actually involved in the war itself, the vast majority of the population can carry on with their football and reality TV, and thus war becomes little more then another thing to watch on the news or Youtube, with minimal emotional impact on the viewing populace.  If a greater part of the American people were directly involved in the military, or related to someone who is, the politicians would loose this relative freedom to wage war at a whim.  They don't want that, so they keep the population as disconnected from war as possible by minimizing it's human involvement.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 04:30:20 AM by The Dark Master »

Offline PraXis

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2012, 07:41:17 AM »
No need for another war, we're broke.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2012, 09:07:46 AM »
I don't think that's the point of the thread.
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Offline jsem

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 09:27:01 AM »
Draft is coercion, not a good idea.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 09:30:58 AM »
No need for another war, we're broke.



I'm totally, 100% against the draft. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 02:07:37 PM »
I will point out that one of the arguments for it is highly flawed.  The politicians who send kids off to fight in stupid wars have the power to get their own spawn out of them.  Either they get them off the hook completely, or they use their pull to swing them cushy gigs where they won't get killed, but can still earn some street cred for their future political ambitions.

Furthermore, and here comes the cynical side of me, if you eliminate the college bound from the draft and draw a larger number of poor, underrepresented folk, then I suspect the willingness to see them get killed attacking Iran or some dipshit will likely increase.  I'd be willing to bet that the lives of volunteers and college boys are treated a lot less cavalierly than a whole mess of drafted black kids by TPTB.  Frankly I have a hard time imagining that our current politicians have become more compassionate and thoughtful than their Vietnam era counterparts. 


Well said.

I think there's also the point to be made that a volunteer force is going to be stronger, braver, and possibly more effective, at any rate. Our technology more than makes up for any short coming of numbers we might have, now or in the future.


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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 02:14:33 PM »
A volunteer army is only more effective under the premise that that the volunteers are joining for noble reasons.

However, one issue America faces is a complete lack of patriotism for the most part. America has no need for a draft, and you guys have entered into so many awful wars in the past 60 years that it's hard to find a reason to support the concept of fighting for America. Assuming there was still a sense of pride or respect for the people who make military decisions, then a mandatory draft wouldn't change the effectiveness of the army a whole lot.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2012, 02:23:45 PM »
A volunteer army is only more effective under the premise that that the volunteers are joining for noble reasons.

No, they just have to be joining for a reason they personally care about. I wouldn't always say this is "noble."

The people fighting in Afghanistan, and the ones who fought in Iraq, usually joined the army knowing the wars they were signing up for. That willingness is going to make a better soldier than drafting some guy who, as you later bring up, doesn't have any patriotism.

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2012, 02:30:58 PM »
And unfortunately there's no way to show whether or not our current soldiers are better than anyone else who would have been drafted.
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Offline MetalMike06

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 03:21:32 PM »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »
And to be honest, just because they knew the score going in doesn't necessarily make their ambitions noble.  I suspect quite a few people signed up because they were genuinely pissed and wanted to kill brown people. 

Part of the problem is that the United States is pretty much uninvadable.  Furthermore, the likelihood of an actual nation-state declaring war on us is pretty much nil.  At lest Pearl Harbor was a legitimate attack on the US by a legitimate enemy.  I don't see that happening again any time soon, and therefore I don't see any wars that we could fight which would directly be related to US security, as opposed to US interests. 

Because of that, I tend to see little nobility in enlisting. 
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 03:35:37 PM »
Well what counts as a legit attack by a legitimate enemy? I mean, couldn't "X" terrorist organization fit the bill? Just because we attacked the wrong guys doesn't mean we weren't attacked.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 03:46:02 PM »
By legitimate enemy I was referring to an actual nation, rather than 19 free agents.  Al Qaeda is actually an oddball situation here.  I suppose ferreting them out could be a legitimate use of the military, although certainly not the best route to take.  However, I don't think the Afghan war is or ever was an act of national defense, at least not directly. 
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 05:30:07 PM »
@OP:  No.

Offline PraXis

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Re: Should We Reinstate the Draft?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2012, 07:47:38 PM »
More people would volunteer to serve their country if we didn't have such a fucked up foreign policy, including myself.