Guns: Yay or nay?

[Chino]

It's not "necessary", per say. I could not walk, or do the treadmill instead. But I like going out with him before work, for both our sakes.

I actually see bears quite a bit pending time of year and day of the week (garbage days).

[TAC]

It's not "necessary", per say. I could not walk, or do the treadmill instead. But I like going out with him before work, for both our sakes.

I actually see bears quite a bit pending time of year and day of the week (garbage days).

Cool. If you think you need a gun, then go for it. The bears would scare the shit out of me, honestly.

[KevShmev]

It's not "necessary", per say. I could not walk, or do the treadmill instead. But I like going out with him before work, for both our sakes.

I actually see bears quite a bit pending time of year and day of the week (garbage days).

Cool. If you think you need a gun, then go for it. The bears would scare the shit out of me, honestly.

I cracked up a while back when I read some article about the different ways you are supposed to react depending on what kind of bear you see (walk away slowly backwards while maintaining eye contact, lay down and play dead, etc.), and I am like, who is going to remember that when you are shitting your pants? 

[TAC]

I think it's Brown-lay down, Black-fight back.

But whatever you do, do not turn and run.

[Chino]

Oddly enough, I've yet to get really nervous around the bears. They seem predictable enough. I haven't come across a mama with cubs though. That'd stop me in my tracks and ponder life for a second or two. But all the encounters I've had have more or less been the bear just scoping us out and just waiting for us to pass more than anything. They're always in driveways or at the end of them tearing through trash bins. They've got a buffet at their claw tips. I've never felt like I was on the menu.

If I was out hiking in the woods and got within 30'-40' like I do in my neighborhood, I'd probably be shitting my pants.

[El Barto]

Shenanigans have gotten pretty close to where I live the last year or so. A 13 year old was shot in his home from a stray bullet, and a two year old was shot as well, both within the last 3 weeks on the route I walk my dog.

The summer months aren't bad, but for 4 or 5 months of the year, it's pitch black for the better part of an hour while I walk my dog. I've been looking into pocket carrying. I really would like a revolver, but most that apply are $700+. I was looking at the Luger LCP II at the store yesterday, and it took every ounce of restraint to not impulse buy it.

My apprehension was, and I know this is all on me and against the grain, but I don't love the idea of keeping a round in the chamber. I want something I can pull out and fire with one hand, which is why I like the revolver route.

Thoughts/advice/words of wisdom? I'm not interested in holstering something, and I really don't have any intention of carrying outside of my morning 5A AM walks, so pocket carry is the way I'm leaning. My intention is to use a pocket holster though. One of those sleeves that hooks tot he inside of your pocket when drawing. At least that way the trigger is guarded.

This is why I've always been a DA/SA kind of guy.  An exposed hammer makes all the difference. With mine I've got no qualms about carrying with a round in the chamber because I know it'll take a significant effort on my part to fire the thing, but I can still fire it without having to rack the slide. It's the advantages of a revolver and a semi-auto combined, and the only thing it costs you is a bit more pull on the trigger. If you ever have to use it that won't be a problem.

Here's the important thing. Go with what you're comfortable with. Lots of people will tell you that if you don't feel comfortable with a weapon ready to fire at all times you shouldn't carry at all. Fuck those people. You certainly want to get comfortable with it, but you also want to allow for a bad day full of distractions. From my point of view if you're of the mindset that you will always be in complete control of your weapon without fail, you're probably the one that shouldn't be carrying. "This is all on me and against the grain" doesn't make a damn bit of difference.   

It's a little small for my taste, but the XD-E is a hammer fired single stack at a reasonable price. I bought the Sig equivalent used a while back and really like it, though that might be a little large for you.

[Stadler]

It's not "necessary", per say. I could not walk, or do the treadmill instead. But I like going out with him before work, for both our sakes.

I actually see bears quite a bit pending time of year and day of the week (garbage days).

Cool. If you think you need a gun, then go for it. The bears would scare the shit out of me, honestly.

This was in my driveway last fall:

[TAC]

That is insane!

[Chino]

Thanks Barto. What when you say "This is why I've always been a DA/SA kind of guy", what is DA/SA?   


@Stads

That's a bear getting ready to go down for winter. What a chonker!

[El Barto]

Thanks Barto. What when you say "This is why I've always been a DA/SA kind of guy", what is DA/SA?   


@Stads

That's a bear getting ready to go down for winter. What a chonker!

Double Action / Single Action. Just like most revolvers. You carry it with the hammer down. The first trigger pull will raise it but requires a much heftier pull. After you fire it recocks for subsequent rounds, hence semi-auto. The alternative is a striker fired weapon where there is no hammer, and any trigger pull will fire it. Downside to DA/SA is that you've got a heavy trigger pull and then subsequent light ones, which some people suggest inhibits accuracy. That's why you practice. For my money that 11lb trigger pull is an ideal safety feature. Or, if you're not in a panic situation you can cock it yourself and have a consistently light trigger pull.


edit: also, if bears are your primary concern this is probably the wrong discussion. Either carry a rifle or a can of bear spray. Shooting at him will hopefully scare him off, or less than ideally, cause him to die of lead poisoning a few days after you're buried.

[bosk1]

Brian, your self-awareness and level of concern are actually pretty commendable.  But I like Barto's recommendation and explanation of a DA/SA or revolver and the trigger pull issue for the first shot.  That added trigger pull makes it VERY difficult/unlikely to have an accidental discharge.  And as for the mental lapse issue, the added trigger pull should also be more than enough to send a message to the brain to stop before the hammer comes back that something is amiss if you aren't actually trying to fire the weapon.

Take that for what it's worth.  But, also for what it's worth, you are getting the same advice from a guy that knows a lot about guns (Barto) and a guy that used to teach Marines how to shoot (me).

[El Barto]

Brian, your self-awareness and level of concern are actually pretty commendable.  But I like Barto's recommendation and explanation of a DA/SA or revolver and the trigger pull issue for the first shot.  That added trigger pull makes it VERY difficult/unlikely to have an accidental discharge.  And as for the mental lapse issue, the added trigger pull should also be more than enough to send a message to the brain to stop before the hammer comes back that something is amiss if you aren't actually trying to fire the weapon.

Take that for what it's worth.  But, also for what it's worth, you are getting the same advice from a guy that knows a lot about guns (Barto) and a guy that used to teach Marines how to shoot (me).

Indeed. That first trigger pull is not only heavier, but it's much longer, too.

[Zoom E]

It's not "necessary", per say. I could not walk, or do the treadmill instead. But I like going out with him before work, for both our sakes.

I actually see bears quite a bit pending time of year and day of the week (garbage days).

Cool. If you think you need a gun, then go for it. The bears would scare the shit out of me, honestly.

This was in my driveway last fall:

Wow, I wouldn’t want to encounter that bear.

I see bears once in a while when I’m out walking. I did encounter a mother with two cubs last year, but the mother was not threatening at all. She perched on a park bench while the cubs were climbing trees. I managed to get some decent photos.

[Chino]

Brian, your self-awareness and level of concern are actually pretty commendable.  But I like Barto's recommendation and explanation of a DA/SA or revolver and the trigger pull issue for the first shot.  That added trigger pull makes it VERY difficult/unlikely to have an accidental discharge.  And as for the mental lapse issue, the added trigger pull should also be more than enough to send a message to the brain to stop before the hammer comes back that something is amiss if you aren't actually trying to fire the weapon.



Take that for what it's worth.  But, also for what it's worth, you are getting the same advice from a guy that knows a lot about guns (Barto) and a guy that used to teach Marines how to shoot (me).

Indeed. That first trigger pull is not only heavier, but it's much longer, too.

Thanks guys. Are you saying there are semi auto pistols that you chamber by pulling the trigger once (basically dry firing) instead of racking it? Is there no live round in the chamber until the second trigger pull?

[Stadler]

edit: also, if bears are your primary concern this is probably the wrong discussion. Either carry a rifle or a can of bear spray. Shooting at him will hopefully scare him off, or less than ideally, cause him to die of lead poisoning a few days after you're buried.

This is accurate; I carry an air-horn with me when I walk down past my pond into the woods.  Not perfect, but better than nothing.  I'm in full agreement that a 9mm or a revolver isn't going to help me much at 25 yards with a mad bear.

[El Barto]

Brian, your self-awareness and level of concern are actually pretty commendable.  But I like Barto's recommendation and explanation of a DA/SA or revolver and the trigger pull issue for the first shot.  That added trigger pull makes it VERY difficult/unlikely to have an accidental discharge.  And as for the mental lapse issue, the added trigger pull should also be more than enough to send a message to the brain to stop before the hammer comes back that something is amiss if you aren't actually trying to fire the weapon.



Take that for what it's worth.  But, also for what it's worth, you are getting the same advice from a guy that knows a lot about guns (Barto) and a guy that used to teach Marines how to shoot (me).

Indeed. That first trigger pull is not only heavier, but it's much longer, too.

Thanks guys. Are you saying there are semi auto pistols that you chamber by pulling the trigger once (basically dry firing) instead of racking it? Is there no live round in the chamber until the second trigger pull?

No, there's still a round in the chamber. It's just that it's not going to fire while the hammer is down. This is essentially the same with your revolvers. You've always got a round chambered there, too. You've just got to cock the hammer before it'll go bang. Either you do that with your thumb or you use the trigger to raise it.



edit: After looking into it, your Model 19 S&W is similar, but yours is double action only. When you pull the trigger it raises the hammer. The weapons Bosk and I are talking about work exactly the same on the first shot. Pulling the trigger will raise the hammer. The difference is that once it fires it leaves the hammer back for the next shot.

[Chino]

Brian, your self-awareness and level of concern are actually pretty commendable.  But I like Barto's recommendation and explanation of a DA/SA or revolver and the trigger pull issue for the first shot.  That added trigger pull makes it VERY difficult/unlikely to have an accidental discharge.  And as for the mental lapse issue, the added trigger pull should also be more than enough to send a message to the brain to stop before the hammer comes back that something is amiss if you aren't actually trying to fire the weapon.



Take that for what it's worth.  But, also for what it's worth, you are getting the same advice from a guy that knows a lot about guns (Barto) and a guy that used to teach Marines how to shoot (me).

Indeed. That first trigger pull is not only heavier, but it's much longer, too.

Thanks guys. Are you saying there are semi auto pistols that you chamber by pulling the trigger once (basically dry firing) instead of racking it? Is there no live round in the chamber until the second trigger pull?

No, there's still a round in the chamber. It's just that it's not going to fire while the hammer is down. This is essentially the same with your revolvers. You've always got a round chambered there, too. You've just got to cock the hammer before it'll go bang. Either you do that with your thumb or you use the trigger to raise it.



edit: After looking into it, your Model 19 S&W is similar, but yours is double action only. When you pull the trigger it raises the hammer. The weapons Bosk and I are talking about work exactly the same on the first shot. Pulling the trigger will raise the hammer. The difference is that once it fires it leaves the hammer back for the next shot.

Ahhh! I understand what you're saying. That sounds exactly what I'm looking for. That's for chiming in.

[ReaPsTA]

Since Chino had to ask what DA/SA even was, is there value in explaining what a de-cocker is and what it does? I'm not aware of any way to do DA/SA safely without one. (My stuff is all striker don't want to ramble without any personal knowledge)

[bosk1]

Since Chino had to ask what DA/SA even was, is there value in explaining what a de-cocker is and what it does? I'm not aware of any way to do DA/SA safely without one. (My stuff is all striker don't want to ramble without any personal knowledge)

For double action, when the hammer is back (and thus ready to fire with short trigger pull), it gently releases the hammer back down without striking the firing pin and discharging the round.  (I think on mine, it actually also deploys a thin plate between the hammer and firing pin while the hammer is de-cocking as an additional "safety"; not sure whether this is standard)  But it is possible to safely de-dock the gun without using it, which is what you have to do with weapons that don't have a de-cocker.  Basically, you first grab the hammer with your thumb so it cannot go forward, then pull the trigger and gently and slowly allow the hammer to go back to the forward position up against the firing pin.  Haven't you ever seen that done in movies or cop shows?

[ReaPsTA]

Have done similar things with the hammer in my ARs or with hammer pistols that aren't mine.

Technically works. Technically safe if done correctly. But the idea of letting the hammer forward at all with a round in the chamber wigs me out. But I admit to being a gun safety Nazi (and do not apologize for it).

Would personally do cocked and locked or buy something with a decocker. But the manual method can work.

(Don't personally carry. None of this is advice, only opinion)

[Chino]

For the record, I knew what DA/SA was, I just never saw it in an acronym format like that  I was drawing a complete blank. Also, in my limited research in anything outside of revolvers and 22 pistols, I didn't really encounter DA/SA pistols. 

As far as decocking goes, that's something I've practiced with my revolver (unloaded) hundreds of times. Usually after a cleaning, I'll just sit on the couch with it (unloaded), repeating that motion/exercise.

Technically works. Technically safe if done correctly. But the idea of letting the hammer forward at all with a round in the chamber wigs me out. But I admit to being a gun safety Nazi (and do not apologize for it).

Is there another way to do it with a revolver? I just confirmed on mine (Model 19-9) that you can't open the cylinder if the hammer is back.

[ReaPsTA]

No experience with revolvers

[El Barto]

Wouldn't own a gun without a de-cocker. That's mandatory in my book. As with ReaP, I just don't much dig the idea of lowering the hammer manually, which will be necessary anytime you load it if you're carrying with an extra round in the chamber. And as Bosk pointed out, in many guns there is a plate that's always in front of the hammer until the trigger is pulled. It fails safe because pulling the trigger is the only thing that will lower that plate. I tested that feature out on my Sig when I first had it, just to confirm.

[Chino]

I ended up settling on a Taurus 856 hammerless snub for pocket carrying. In my research, Taurus seems hit or miss on the whole. Lots of issue with some of their older semi autos, but their newer revolvers seem to get great praise for their price point. I watched dozens of videos on YouTube and none were really trashing it or finding reliability issues over time. I would have liked the ultra-lite model, but they didn't have any in stock. I actually ordered one online almost 3 weeks ago, but as of today it still didn't ship, so I canceled the order and requested a refund. I snagged 500 rounds of 38 special and 2000 22lr as well. Hoping to hit the range for a couple hours this Saturday and give it a go.

[Phoenix87x]

That's interesting. I didn't even know that the hammerless design existed. cool

[Chino]

There's still a hammer, so "hammerless" might not be the best term to use. It still comes back and strikes when you pull the trigger. It just lacks that thing on the back of it that you could get your thumb on. The plus side there is you'll never snag it when trying to get it out of the pocket. The downside is you can only use double action.

[bosk1]

That's definitely the trend in CC weapons, whether revolver or semi-auto, for probably obvious reasons.  If you need it, you need to draw quickly, and if it is concealed, there are more things to snag it on. 

[El Barto]

That's definitely the trend in CC weapons, whether revolver or semi-auto, for probably obvious reasons.  If you need it, you need to draw quickly, and if it is concealed, there are more things to snag it on.

While I couldn't guarantee that in a crisis situation I won't fumble it around like Barney Fife, I'm adept at covering the hammer with my thumb when I pull it from my pocket. I found a way to remove it without snagging on anything and make a point to always do that. It's really the only way I know to do it now. To me it's just a thing to practice.

[Phoenix87x]

That is one thing I like about my Glock. Just draw and ready, no extra steps.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm personally not a revolver guy....but that gun will certainly serve the purpose you intend it to Brian.

How's it 'feel' holding it? I know with my Compact Sig P365....the shortened grip leaves your pinky dangling a bit meaning a good two hand grip is required for more accuracy. The more I've shot it the more comfortable I get with it....but it feels weird not having a full grip sometimes.

[Chino]

I'm personally not a revolver guy....but that gun will certainly serve the purpose you intend it to Brian.

How's it 'feel' holding it? I know with my Compact Sig P365....the shortened grip leaves your pinky dangling a bit meaning a good two hand grip is required for more accuracy. The more I've shot it the more comfortable I get with it....but it feels weird not having a full grip sometimes.

The grip is shockingly comfortable, and grippy. It's not a full cutout, but if you look near the base of the grip, there is a notch to get your pinky on. No dangling there! It's fits in my hand perfectly. Granted I haven't shot it yet, but it's more comfortable to hold than the S&W.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm personally not a revolver guy....but that gun will certainly serve the purpose you intend it to Brian.

How's it 'feel' holding it? I know with my Compact Sig P365....the shortened grip leaves your pinky dangling a bit meaning a good two hand grip is required for more accuracy. The more I've shot it the more comfortable I get with it....but it feels weird not having a full grip sometimes.

The grip is shockingly comfortable, and grippy. It's not a full cutout, but if you look near the base of the grip, there is a notch to get your pinky on. No dangling there! It's fits in my hand perfectly. Granted I haven't shot it yet, but it's more comfortable to hold than the S&W.

 

[Chino]

I got a few hours in at the range yesterday morning. Couldn't have asked for a nicer day. That new snub nose I got is a handful! I was about 13-14 yards out, and was hitting the paper just fine. Getting near any specific dot on the paper was a different story 

I know that's not the distance that'd typically be used at, but it's where I had my targets set up. My RDS on the Buck Mark shit the bed as well. I didn't expect it to last long. I bought a cheap one to see if I liked it, and now that I have a reason to, I plan on upgrading.

[gmillerdrake]

Did you get any work in from 3-5 yds away with the snub nose? That’s a good range to practice with your carry gun because that’s really the distance you’re most likely going to use it.

Practicing one handed…..off hand, off hand one hand…..all good ideas from 3-5 yds. And if you’re hitting the black from any distance that’s pretty good considering center mass is the goal anyway.

[Phoenix87x]

I really agree with the practicing multiple ways. One handed, off hand, two handed as a life or death situation can go down in so many different ways. And I am happy to say that my Glock 19  9mm allows me to comfortably and reliably do each different scenario.

On another note, I was toying with the idea of trading my AR-15 to get an AK-47, mainly because I'm lazy as hell and really didn't enjoy cleaning the AR last time around, lol.

I would rather have something a little bit easier in the maintenance department and if shit does go down, I sure as hell don't want to be tearing down an AR in the field.