Guns: Yay or nay?

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

When i look at this i kind of get a little scared that now one seems to respect their weapons more than a toy! It just feels wrong to me! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqShRDJh470

[kári]

So you honestly can't see the difference?

I mean, for a start, some lunatic can't exactly go around killing a whole bunch of people with a tire iron.

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that a gun is just as safe as a knife or tire iron when used properly. Just because some people use them for harm doesn't mean everyone should suffer the conciseness.

OK so by that rationale there is no problem in handing out atomic bombs to everyone.

[El Barto]

And what's the point of background checks?  If someone is crazy enough and driven enough to shoot up a school, it's going to happen.  If I want to buy a handgun at Wal-Mart right now, I should be able to do it.  What reason do any of you have to restrict this process except to placate your fears in a manner that does nothing to actually make people safer?

I've actually been trying to consider that in relation to Rumbo's post that the alternative is throwing our hands up in the air and declaring it a lost cause.  I'm leaning towards the notion that you're right, it actually is a lost cause, and we probably shouldn't worry so much about trying to keep guns from being sold to maniacs.  It seems to me that 50 or 75 years ago, perhaps we might have been able to stave off the lost cause that we're faced with now.  We didn't, and now we have enough guns floating around this country to keep the criminals well armed for generations.  The only thing stricter gun laws do is get in the way of the honest folk who buy their weapons legally. 

What give me pause is that maybe we actually could improve the situation 50-75 years from now.  That might actually be a worthy endeavor, but I doubt we really would.  For one thing, guns last a very long time.  Your great grandfather's 1911 is not only a valuable collectors item, but also a perfectly good weapon still capable of shooting burglars, cops or Virginia Tech students.  Add to that, not only is there ample supply here, but if you shake a tree in Asia there's about a one in three chance a Kalashnikov will fall out of it.  You have Mexican criminals purchasing military hardware by the truckload (and not all of it is from us).  It's really not a matter of supply, as that's already well established.  Even if no more guns were produced in this country, if the only decrease in the supply comes from confiscations, there's not really going to be much drop off in the overall supply fifty years from now.  Only a distinct change in the balance of power.

[lordxizor]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

When i look at this i kind of get a little scared that now one seems to respect their weapons more than a toy! It just feels wrong to me! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqShRDJh470

I'm an American and I completely agree with you. Gun are designed to kill things, particularly people. I just don't see the appeal.

[bosk1]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

I'm not even sure what this means, but it isn't really productive to discussion to make sweeping generalizations.  I don't think Americans as a group have a "fascination with guns," whatever that means, or that Americans, as a whole, take things lightly.  What do you mean by that?  But the problem with your post is that it seems to be making overbroad generalizations and passing judgments, which is exactly what people need to stay away from in this discussion.  Personally, I don't understand why some people like to watch car races.  Or why some like to cram into a soccer stadium and blow on plastic horns for hours at a time.  Or why some like to spend time in casinos gambling away their money.  Or why some like to do any number of other things that don't interest me.  I don't identify with those cultures or subcultures, and I personally don't see the appeal.  But it's not really productive for me to pass judgment and make sweeping generalizations about those that do enjoy them or find them appealing, is it?

As far as the video, while I don't see the need for military-grade weapons like many of those to be available to the public, and I don't really identify with the culture that seems to be shared by many in that video, I see nothing in that video that gives me the impression that any of those people took what they were doing "lightly" or viewed their guns as "toys."  Were they having fun, laughing, and smiling while they were doing what they did?  Yeah, they were.  Probably because they were having fun and enjoying themselves.  Nothing wrong with that.  But one thing I did notice from that video that may not be obvious to someone who has never been taught gun safety and has never been around a firing range is that they were behaving in a VERY safe manner, were obviously trained, and were obviously taking their safety training seriously even while having fun and being able to laugh.  A few if those indicators are:  They were in a remote, safe location; This was a professionally set up range with a clearly-marked firing line that nobody crossed during times when live fire was going on; There were range/safety officials and/or instructors close at hand at all times to monitor what was going on and making sure that people were acting in a safe manner; Shooters are following the range officials' instructions; Without exception, even when they stopped to laugh and smile, guns were always pointed down range in a safe direction, and when not being fired, fingers were off the triggers; Proper safety glasses, hearing protection, and other proper safety equipment are used.  I didn't see anything that looked like they were treating guns like "toys."

[Ryzee]

This thread is weird.  Seems like if someone speaks up to say they're not into guns they get a bunch of "but why?  here's why you're wrong" responses.  I know he's a goofy kid but I thought you guys were never going to let up on ol' numbers guy.  But whatever. 

I think we've had discussions similar to this in P/R and I've given my opinions there.  This thread kind of re-affirms my feeling that this "gun culture" or whatever you want to call it is definitely a regional American thing.  I am an American but part of a region where the gun culture is not really prevalent so I am obviously not a part of that culture.  Unlike a lot of people though I don't feel the need to have everybody else get in line with my opinions and beliefs.  Guns are here to stay in this country, and I don't have any plans to move anywhere else anytime soon so it is what is.  I accept it and move on.

Pro gun people- please don't jump all over me now or ask for more explanation of why I feel the way I do or explain to me why my opinion is wrong or whatever.  I have a stupid opinion that's different from yours because I'm an idiot.  Please don't shoot me. 

[Chino]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

When i look at this i kind of get a little scared that now one seems to respect their weapons more than a toy! It just feels wrong to me! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqShRDJh470

I don't see any issue with what those people are doing. Every person in that video is respecting their weapon. Just because they are laughing and joking doesn't mean they don't respect their power, they are all just having a great time doing what they love.  Every shooter in that video had eye and ear protection, as well as appear to be following all codes of conduct as to keeping everyone around them out of harms way.

This guy is a perfect example. He jokes and has all the fun in the world with guns, or treating them as toys as you say, but you can tell he knows the ins and outs of every weapon in every video he has ever made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_1PfqGVSg0&feature=related

[kári]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

I'm not even sure what this means, but it isn't really productive to discussion to make sweeping generalizations.  I don't think Americans as a group have a "fascination with guns"

I think that they do. As I've said before (not in this thread) over here you don't see guns anywhere. Except for on a police official or in a museum or something I have never seen a gun. I have also never heard of any kind of firing range here in Belgium. Surely there is at least one but I'd have no idea. I tried to look it up but I don't even know the dutch word for "firing range".

[XJDenton]

Honestly I think whether or not anyone thinks people should have guns or not is a bit irrelevent when it comes to the USA. You almost have as many guns as people in the US (88 per 100 people). So getting them back isnt an option at this point. Personally I would never introduce them to the general populace as I think they do more harm than good most of the time, but given that isn't an option for the US the question becomes what safeguards can be put in place to minimise the risk of guns that do exist.

[Kotowboy]

Guns ? Nah..




Guns 'N' Roses ?  Nah.

[King Postwhore]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

I'm not even sure what this means, but it isn't really productive to discussion to make sweeping generalizations.  I don't think Americans as a group have a "fascination with guns"

I think that they do. As I've said before (not in this thread) over here you don't see guns anywhere. Except for on a police official or in a museum or something I have never seen a gun. I have also never heard of any kind of firing range here in Belgium. Surely there is at least one but I'd have no idea. I tried to look it up but I don't even know the dutch word for "firing range".

I can't tell you the last time I've sen a gun.  not everybody in America is packing.

[kirksnosehair]

Right, there are only 88 guns for every 100 citizens, so yeah, not everyone is packing....just almost everyone.

[bosk1]

Actually, no.  That is a fallacy.  I think surveys will actually show that a minority of U.S. citizens owns a gun, but those that do often own several, which raises the per capita rate.  For example, if it is assumed accurate that there are 88 guns per 100 citizens, of those 88, 20 may be owned by 1 individual, 4 individuals may have 10 each, 3 may have 5 each, and the remaining 13 owned by 13 people.  So that's only 21 people out of 100 who own.

[TempusVox]

Actually, no.  That is a fallacy.  I think surveys will actually show that a minority of U.S. citizens owns a gun, but those that do often own several, which raises the per capita rate.  For example, if it is assumed accurate that there are 88 guns per 100 citizens, of those 88, 20 may be owned by 1 individual, 4 individuals may have 10 each, 3 may have 5 each, and the remaining 13 owned by 13 people.  So that's only 21 people out of 100 who own.

This. There are more guns per capita in the US, but more Canadians own guns than Americans do, per capita. So while more people in Canada actually own a gun, people in the US own more of them.

[7StringedBeast]

I just want to say, I don't think pro gun people are jumping all over anti gun people for not being into guns.  I don't care if someone likes to shoot or not.  I just don't think there are good reasons to take them away and I don't believe people should be wanting to take away others rights just because they don't like it.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

This thread is weird.  Seems like if someone speaks up to say they're not into guns they get a bunch of "but why?  here's why you're wrong" responses.  I know he's a goofy kid but I thought you guys were never going to let up on ol' numbers guy.  But whatever. 

I think we've had discussions similar to this in P/R and I've given my opinions there.  This thread kind of re-affirms my feeling that this "gun culture" or whatever you want to call it is definitely a regional American thing.  I am an American but part of a region where the gun culture is not really prevalent so I am obviously not a part of that culture.  Unlike a lot of people though I don't feel the need to have everybody else get in line with my opinions and beliefs.  Guns are here to stay in this country, and I don't have any plans to move anywhere else anytime soon so it is what is.  I accept it and move on.

Pro gun people- please don't jump all over me now or ask for more explanation of why I feel the way I do or explain to me why my opinion is wrong or whatever.  I have a stupid opinion that's different from yours because I'm an idiot.  Please don't shoot me. 

Are you talking to me? Well i´m 30 years old and not considered a kid atleast not what i think. 

My english my not be the best but it is what it is. It probably is a cultural thing and i don´t know if i ever will understand it.
Not every american is the same of course, i didn´t mean to generalize. And trust me there are some gun nuts in Sweden too, you just don´t see them that much not me anyway.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

I'm not even sure what this means, but it isn't really productive to discussion to make sweeping generalizations.  I don't think Americans as a group have a "fascination with guns," whatever that means, or that Americans, as a whole, take things lightly.  What do you mean by that?  But the problem with your post is that it seems to be making overbroad generalizations and passing judgments, which is exactly what people need to stay away from in this discussion.  Personally, I don't understand why some people like to watch car races.  Or why some like to cram into a soccer stadium and blow on plastic horns for hours at a time.  Or why some like to spend time in casinos gambling away their money.  Or why some like to do any number of other things that don't interest me.  I don't identify with those cultures or subcultures, and I personally don't see the appeal.  But it's not really productive for me to pass judgment and make sweeping generalizations about those that do enjoy them or find them appealing, is it?

As far as the video, while I don't see the need for military-grade weapons like many of those to be available to the public, and I don't really identify with the culture that seems to be shared by many in that video, I see nothing in that video that gives me the impression that any of those people took what they were doing "lightly" or viewed their guns as "toys."  Were they having fun, laughing, and smiling while they were doing what they did?  Yeah, they were.  Probably because they were having fun and enjoying themselves.  Nothing wrong with that.  But one thing I did notice from that video that may not be obvious to someone who has never been taught gun safety and has never been around a firing range is that they were behaving in a VERY safe manner, were obviously trained, and were obviously taking their safety training seriously even while having fun and being able to laugh.  A few if those indicators are:  They were in a remote, safe location; This was a professionally set up range with a clearly-marked firing line that nobody crossed during times when live fire was going on; There were range/safety officials and/or instructors close at hand at all times to monitor what was going on and making sure that people were acting in a safe manner; Shooters are following the range officials' instructions; Without exception, even when they stopped to laugh and smile, guns were always pointed down range in a safe direction, and when not being fired, fingers were off the triggers; Proper safety glasses, hearing protection, and other proper safety equipment are used.  I didn't see anything that looked like they were treating guns like "toys."

I didn´t mean to generalize of course, sorry for that. As i said in another post, it probably is a cultural thing. It´s OK but i don´t know if i ever will understand it.

[Ryzee]

This thread is weird.  Seems like if someone speaks up to say they're not into guns they get a bunch of "but why?  here's why you're wrong" responses.  I know he's a goofy kid but I thought you guys were never going to let up on ol' numbers guy.  But whatever. 

I think we've had discussions similar to this in P/R and I've given my opinions there.  This thread kind of re-affirms my feeling that this "gun culture" or whatever you want to call it is definitely a regional American thing.  I am an American but part of a region where the gun culture is not really prevalent so I am obviously not a part of that culture.  Unlike a lot of people though I don't feel the need to have everybody else get in line with my opinions and beliefs.  Guns are here to stay in this country, and I don't have any plans to move anywhere else anytime soon so it is what is.  I accept it and move on.

Pro gun people- please don't jump all over me now or ask for more explanation of why I feel the way I do or explain to me why my opinion is wrong or whatever.  I have a stupid opinion that's different from yours because I'm an idiot.  Please don't shoot me. 

Are you talking to me? Well i´m 30 years old and not considered a kid atleast not what i think. 

My english my not be the best but it is what it is. It probably is a cultural thing and i don´t know if i ever will understand it.
Not every american is the same of course, i didn´t mean to generalize. And trust me there are some gun nuts in Sweden too, you just don´t see them that much not me anyway.

Are you talking to me?  They call me- Mister Pig!!!!!! /pumba


No I wasn't talking to you.  I was addressing the congregation as a whole.

[BlobVanDam]

I can´t understand americans fascination of guns and why you all take it so lightly?!?

I'd put it down to different cultures. When you're raised in a culture where guns are more common, I guess it just becomes normal, and you'd see it in reasonable contexts a lot more than you'd see it being used for criminal activity.
Coming from a culture with much tighter gun laws, the thought of guns being that common scares me, no matter how reasonable the arguments are.

[bosk1]

^That.  Although "normal" is very relative, even in terms of this specific discussion.  In more rural areas around the country, people probably know a fair number of people who own guns and are fairly open about it.  In most urban areas, few people own guns and those that do often do not talk about it, so it's more likely to not even know someone who owns guns and have never seen one, other than carried by the police.  And there is a whole spectrum in between.  And even in places where guns are more common, that video posted by MrBoom_shack-a-lack is not a representation of "normal" gun culture in this country at all.  That is a very small minority that even most gun owners will not encounter. 

It's kind of interesting.  Until recently, I could only name a small handful of people I personally knew who owned firearms.  But when I recently started asking around and asking questions, I learned that quite a few people owned guns and just never talked about it openly before, or at least, not around me, so I never knew.  But even then, it looks like it is still a relatively small minority of people I know who own any.

[kirksnosehair]

Actually, no.  That is a fallacy.  I think surveys will actually show that a minority of U.S. citizens owns a gun, but those that do often own several, which raises the per capita rate.  For example, if it is assumed accurate that there are 88 guns per 100 citizens, of those 88, 20 may be owned by 1 individual, 4 individuals may have 10 each, 3 may have 5 each, and the remaining 13 owned by 13 people.  So that's only 21 people out of 100 who own.

Maybe, but everywhere I look I find stuff like this which suggests that the US is the most heavily armed country on earth.  I get what you're saying, though.

[7StringedBeast]

Let's not forget the deadliest shooting spree ever just happened in norway.  Go figure it wasn't the us

[bosk1]

YES BUT YOU PUT A GUN IN THE HANDS OF VIKINGS AND SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS BOUND TO HAPPEN!  THEY'RE VIKINGS FOR GOODNESS SAKE! 

[snapple]

@Barry

Oh, it is very illegal. He knows it, too. He's been in jail a few times (petty shit). The surprise for me that he has never bought a round for the shotgun.

Once or twice a summer some buddies and I go shooting. Usually fire between 900-1000 rounds. Depends on the guns we have. I used to own a glock, but I sold it so I could buy my laptop. In Boy Scouts we discovered I was a really good shot, so I got a glock and did a bunch of competitive shooting. Was a lot of fun. My friends love it when I can "double-tap" and still get both shots in a good area 

also, hipfiring shotguns has to be one of the most liberating feelings in the world. Shit, feeling ANY sort of fire-power at YOUR hands is amazing. It's incredible. It's a release. There is a primal urge in all of us (at least men). That feeling that we need to be in control of something. And, those afternoons when we go shooting, it satisfies that urge. Knowing that what I am holding is so powerful, but I am controlling what happens with it. Again, it's liberating.

edit: I also get to hear a lot of Ted Nugent interviews on the local radio stations because he hunts where I live all the time. Even bumped into him a couple times where I work. He is truly a wonderful guy. The stuff you guys see on TV is an act. The guy is as nice and humble as they come in real life.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

This thread is weird.  Seems like if someone speaks up to say they're not into guns they get a bunch of "but why?  here's why you're wrong" responses.  I know he's a goofy kid but I thought you guys were never going to let up on ol' numbers guy.  But whatever. 

I think we've had discussions similar to this in P/R and I've given my opinions there.  This thread kind of re-affirms my feeling that this "gun culture" or whatever you want to call it is definitely a regional American thing.  I am an American but part of a region where the gun culture is not really prevalent so I am obviously not a part of that culture.  Unlike a lot of people though I don't feel the need to have everybody else get in line with my opinions and beliefs.  Guns are here to stay in this country, and I don't have any plans to move anywhere else anytime soon so it is what is.  I accept it and move on.

Pro gun people- please don't jump all over me now or ask for more explanation of why I feel the way I do or explain to me why my opinion is wrong or whatever.  I have a stupid opinion that's different from yours because I'm an idiot.  Please don't shoot me. 

Are you talking to me? Well i´m 30 years old and not considered a kid atleast not what i think. 

My english my not be the best but it is what it is. It probably is a cultural thing and i don´t know if i ever will understand it.
Not every american is the same of course, i didn´t mean to generalize. And trust me there are some gun nuts in Sweden too, you just don´t see them that much not me anyway.

Are you talking to me?  They call me- Mister Pig!!!!!! /pumba


No I wasn't talking to you.  I was addressing the congregation as a whole.

Ahh i see, sorry! 

[slycordinator]

Oh, I forgot to mention that if you have a gun and he has a gun...someone is getting shot.

If you have nukes and so do the Russians... some country is getting nuked.

Ergo the Cold War didn't happen.

[hefdaddy42]

YOU CAN HAVE MY NUKES WHEN YOU PRY THEM FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS

[snapple]

Relevant

https://youtu.be/-8QeDMUS_U0

[Sigz]

Oh, I forgot to mention that if you have a gun and he has a gun...someone is getting shot.

If you have nukes and so do the Russians... some country is getting nuked.

Ergo the Cold War didn't happen.

Oh come on, a confrontation during a home invasion/burglary is hardly comparable to the cold war.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Actually, no.  That is a fallacy.  I think surveys will actually show that a minority of U.S. citizens owns a gun, but those that do often own several, which raises the per capita rate.  For example, if it is assumed accurate that there are 88 guns per 100 citizens, of those 88, 20 may be owned by 1 individual, 4 individuals may have 10 each, 3 may have 5 each, and the remaining 13 owned by 13 people.  So that's only 21 people out of 100 who own.

I'm more worried by the one person who's stockpiling weapons

[73109]

Oh, I forgot to mention that if you have a gun and he has a gun...someone is getting shot.

If you have nukes and so do the Russians... some country is getting nuked.

Ergo the Cold War didn't happen.

Oh come on, a confrontation during a home invasion/burglary is hardly comparable to the cold war.

Yeah, that was a horrid analogy, my dear.

[snapple]

But no one got nuked. Analogy stands.

[slycordinator]

Oh, I forgot to mention that if you have a gun and he has a gun...someone is getting shot.

If you have nukes and so do the Russians... some country is getting nuked.

Ergo the Cold War didn't happen.

Oh come on, a confrontation during a home invasion/burglary is hardly comparable to the cold war.

The comparison is stating that two entities (no matter if they are individuals, governments, militias, etc) both having weapons in and of itself doesn't tell you that the weapons will be used.

And even if you add the provision that one of the weapons was held by a guy trying to break into a house... lots of home invaders are scared little shits who would run if they found the other guy had a gun in front of him. And concluding that someone will get shot assumes that everyone involved are good shots.

[MetalMike06]

I don't have a problem with guns. I don't own one myself, but I do frequent the pistol range with my friend about once a week or so. I'll probably get one reasonably soon, but I'm in no rush.

[bosk1]

Actually, no.  That is a fallacy.  I think surveys will actually show that a minority of U.S. citizens owns a gun, but those that do often own several, which raises the per capita rate.  For example, if it is assumed accurate that there are 88 guns per 100 citizens, of those 88, 20 may be owned by 1 individual, 4 individuals may have 10 each, 3 may have 5 each, and the remaining 13 owned by 13 people.  So that's only 21 people out of 100 who own.

I'm more worried by the one person who's stockpiling weapons

Which you are entitled to.  However, "stockpiling" and "collecting" are not necessarily the same thing.  And while admittedly I am reading certain assumptions into your post, my assumption is that "stockpiling" refers more to, for example, the paramilitary types who have a bunker in their backyard and have a stash of military weapons versus, for example, the avid collector who merely has a collection of guns because that is just the particular thing that has caught his fancy as being something fun to collect.  These are two very different mindsets, and the former is definitely the minority.

But personally, I find it silly to be "worried" by either group.  Both the "collector" and the "stockpiler" are likely to understand and practice proper gun safety, which is why you typically do NOT hear about either of these groups being involved in gun-related violence.  It is typically the person who has a gun or two and is not careful with them that you have to worry about.

Oh, I forgot to mention that if you have a gun and he has a gun...someone is getting shot.

If you have nukes and so do the Russians... some country is getting nuked.

Ergo the Cold War didn't happen.

Oh come on, a confrontation during a home invasion/burglary is hardly comparable to the cold war.

The comparison is stating that two entities (no matter if they are individuals, governments, militias, etc) both having weapons in and of itself doesn't tell you that the weapons will be used.

And even if you add the provision that one of the weapons was held by a guy trying to break into a house... lots of home invaders are scared little shits who would run if they found the other guy had a gun in front of him. And concluding that someone will get shot assumes that everyone involved are good shots.

That was what I understood your analogy to mean, which is a valid comparison.  And the reality is that, yes, these kinds of confrontations do in fact occur and, more often than not, do NOT result in anyone being shot.