Do the gods love piety because it is pious, or is it pious because they love it?

[Chino]

Do the gods love piety because it is pious, or is it pious because the gods love it?

This question was asked today in my philosophy class, and the whole discussion made me feel really retarded. The professor was kind of a dick and let the discussion go on for almost an hour, saying nothing other than "no" when someone said something. Can DTF please enlighten me as to what the answer to this question is?

I tried to attack it by rewording the question...

Do people like ice cream because it tastes good, or does it taste good because they like it? I was told this was a bad approach, but can't think of any other way of beginning to answer it.

[theseoafs]

It's really sort of a silly question. It's just semantic. There's a lot less depth to the question than it may at first appear.

[Adami]

Contrary to what your teacher says, the correct answer is yes.

[Chino]

Can you guys go into a little more detail though? I have a feeling this will be an exam question and I don't even know where to start. 

[theseoafs]

I get the feeling Adami was joking, but the correct answer is basically yes. Across religions, gods make demands, and piety is defined as following these demands. So, assuming gods demand what they love, something that is what the gods love will be pious, and the gods love piety because it is pious (because piety, by virtue of its piousness, gives the gods what they love).

It's a semantic and rather shallow question about the definition of piety. I'm surprised the professor let the discussion go on for an hour.

EDIT: I was, at this point, unfamiliar with the Socratic text in question. I redact this response; see amendments below.

[SeRoX]

An atheist should give an answer to this question, at least directly to the meaning. Considering they are not pious they could see the things semantic more than deists and theists. Because when personal beliefs matter people can't see the things as they could be. Of course just from the view of God and religion dilemma. Other than that it's more complicated, I guess.

[Chino]

The part that I have the biggest issue with is that Socrates argues that the gods are at war, and thus have different views on what is a pious act. There is nothing at all the gods love equally, what some love is always hated by others. So a person can not ever be truely pious. Nothing they do can ever please all the gods. So, in my mind, piety does not actually exist, it's something created in man as to describe what the gods want. Since they all disagree, not act can be poius. It seems like the question is stuck in an indefinite loop, but I know my professor will shoot down that response in an instant. Without first knowing a solid definition of piety, we can't possibly know whether the gods love it, or if it is pious because they love it.

[theseoafs]

If this question were brought up on an exam, would Socrates play a role? Would you be forced to talk about Socrates? Or does Socrates just come to mind because you're thinking about the gods?

EDIT: Never mind, I'm doing some research about the text myself. I'll have a response in a moment.

[Chino]

If this question were brought up on an exam, would Socrates play a role? Would you be forced to talk about Socrates? Or does Socrates just come to mind because you're thinking about the gods?

EDIT: Never mind, I'm doing some research about the text myself. I'll have a response in a moment.

Socrates has to come into the answer, because he is challenging Euthyphro. Euthyphro claims piety is what is loved by the gods, and a pious act is something they love and approve of. Socrates argues that the gods are at war and do not agree. We can not know whay piety is because what may be approved of by one god will not be approved of by another.

[theseoafs]

Basically, the reason the question was asked in this text is because they lack a definition of piety. That's what they're trying to do throughout the whole text anyway - find an apt definition of piety. My response above relies on piety's being defined as "actions loved by the gods", which does make the question somewhat redundant, but if we do not have the luxury of defining piety that way, then the question does get a bit more difficult.

One of the main issues here is one coming from translation. When modern society thinks of "piety", the Christian image is often one that comes to mind; a pious person is one who follows God's commandments. Things were not so simple with the Greek gods. However, it is incorrect to argue that there is no action that is universally loved by the gods - for example, to my knowledge, no Greek god has ever encouraged disbelief in the Greek gods. Saying piety is made up by humans is a cop-out answer, since every word and concept, the Greek gods included, was made up by humans.

Basically, this is a trick question in true Socratic style. It seems as if both clauses are true (that is, the gods love piety because it is pious, and what the gods love is pious), but this is circular, meaning the definition of piety cannot simply be "what the gods love". You can read all about this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

NOTE: Do NOT think about this as a difficult question that has an answer. This is not the goal of the question. The goal of the question is to challenge a particular definition of piety.

[Chino]

I still don't get it  .  It seems to me that there isn't an answer. Each clause requires the other to be true in order for either of them to be true.

[skydivingninja]

o hai Socrates.  Maybe reading the Apologie by Plato might help, if you haven't already.  We had to read it for my PHL 101 class.

As theseoafs said, "The goal of the question is to challenge a particular definition of piety."  That's all Socrates wanted to do is question things, IIRC.

[Chino]

o hai Socrates.  Maybe reading the Apologie by Plato might help, if you haven't already.  We had to read it for my PHL 101 class.

As theseoafs said, "The goal of the question is to challenge a particular definition of piety."  That's all Socrates wanted to do is question things, IIRC.

I have read it 4 times. The only conclusion I can come up with is that the dilemma is false and can not be answered. The two clauses stated contradict each other.

Piety was said to be pious acts that are loved by all the gods. So, do gods love what pleases them because the actions are good/moral/just/pious, or are actions good/moral/just/pious because they love them?

Is the first clause saying that some actions are good/moral/just/pious and are thus loved by the gods, and the second cluase saying that we choose to act good/moral/just/pious because they love it?

[Omega]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_378009&src_vid=m-dpcJSTsKs&feature=iv&v=wBvi_auKkaI

[theseoafs]

o hai Socrates.  Maybe reading the Apologie by Plato might help, if you haven't already.  We had to read it for my PHL 101 class.

As theseoafs said, "The goal of the question is to challenge a particular definition of piety."  That's all Socrates wanted to do is question things, IIRC.

I have read it 4 times. The only conclusion I can come up with is that the dilemma is false and can not be answered. The two clauses stated contradict each other.

YES. I'll repeat myself:

NOTE: Do NOT think about this as a difficult question that has an answer. This is not the goal of the question. The goal of the question is to challenge a particular definition of piety.

The question isn't asking anything. The question doesn't have an answer. The question is an example of the Socratic dialectic; the question is basically a part of Socrates' argument.