Views on Homosexuality in my Scripture Class

[SystematicThought]

In our 12th Grade Scripture class every Friday, we get the desks in a circle and write down questions and pass them in and they get randomly distributed among the students and they pose the question they received to another classmate.

The issue of homosexuality and the fact that I'm Christian but don't take issue with it has been on my mind recently so I asked "Is it wrong if a Christian doesn't take issue with homosexuality?"

A student asked my question to another student and her response was:
Yes, it is wrong. Homosexuality is a result of sin, so if a Christian doesn't take issue with it, then they are on the side of sin, so they are in the wrong.

It just really irked me. Is it really so wrong that I am a Christian who doesn't take issue with it and doesn't try to tell a homosexual that they are wrong and that God doesn't approve. It just never really mattered to me how a person chooses to live their life and who they choose to love.

For the Christians out there, is it really that wrong of me that I don't take issue with homosexuality and think that there are more pressing matters to deal with than this? Does this mean that I'm not a good Christian? I don't think it does, but man, they painted me to be some weirdo

[GuineaPig]

They're probably OK with people charging interest on loans, so I'd say you're even.

[skydivingninja]

They're probably OK with people charging interest on loans, so I'd say you're even.

Okay, first of all, that's standard business practice.  You want some return if you're going to risk giving people this money and you want to take the change in the value of money (i.e. time value of money) into account.  Don't mix up smart business sense with some kind of religious silliness.

Second of all (and this has nothing to do with GP's post I just said "first of all" and feel the need to say "second") I feel like really good Christians shouldn't be trying to tell people stuff like in victimless crimes like consensual homosexual acts.  In fact, it probably makes their message more likely to be ignored. 

I was constantly preached to that God loved everybody and that he absolved us of our sins and whatnot, so to find that gay marriage was such a big religious deal surprised me in high school.  If God loves everyone why wouldn't he also love gay people? 

Also, I went to a presentation a week ago about how the Bible addresses homosexuality (three religious professors were speaking.  Two were gay, one wasn't) and the straight man brought his bible and pointed out all the possible translation issues that arose from interpreting one of the letters (from Paul, I believe?) to speak about homosexuality, basically saying that it more than likely wouldn't have been explicitly mentioned, and that "sodomites" referred to more than just gay people back then.

In conclusion, since I've been rambling a biiiiiiiit too much no I don't think its wrong of you to not take an issue with homosexuality.  Although I haven't really been a practicing Catholic since high school I think traditional sins like murder and theft are far more pressing issues that actually do cause harm to others. 

[ehra]

Plenty of things that are technically sins are accepted in our society, and generations from now homosexuality will be just another one of them. The thing about sin is that everyone does it anyway, so the argument about how you're supposedly "on the side of sin" for being chill about two dudes screwing is misleading; technically true, but everyone is one way or another. It's regularly pointed out that not all "rules" in the bible are meant to be followed by everyone; some were meant for certain groups, and in some cases even specific people had to follow their own special rules. The gist is that if something is keeping you away from God then stop doing it.

Going by that, I'd say that in my own humble opinion something a lot of Christians mess up is that, in trying to follow the letter of His word, they miss the spirit of it. How a guy having sex with another guy affects his relationship with God is between him and God to work out. I think what's more relevant to the Christians judging them is how their own relationships with God are affected by seeking to prevent fellow humans from being able to cherish the same loving relationship with another human that the rest of us (hopefully) enjoy.


You're fine, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Centuries from now people will probably just say that we were reading the Bible wrong like everyone else who's ever used the Bible to justify doing things that we later decided were morally wrong.

[SystematicThought]

I was constantly preached to that God loved everybody and that he absolved us of our sins and whatnot, so to find that gay marriage was such a big religious deal surprised me in high school.  If God loves everyone why wouldn't he also love gay people? 

This is exactly what I've been saying. I've said this before and I've been told: He loves them, but he doesn't approve of their orientation. Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve

Also, good points ehra.

[El Barto]

I don't see why there need be any conflict.  I think a Christian could, in good conscience, come to the conclusion that it's not a sin.  It's merely a matter of believing it to be a trait rather than a choice.

Next, I believe it's the actual gay-screwing that's frowned upon, not necessarily the interest.  A homo's a homo even if he's not actually acting on it.  Is one sworn to celibacy still committing sin? 

Lastly, isn't judgement of others reserved for that God person?  I kind of thought that the point of the whole thing was for people to be able to find redemption, despite the fact that they're horrible, nasty sinners, each and every one.  Their only obligation is between themselves and the Big Guy.  Unless they seek help from you, let them deal with it according to their own abilities and wants. 

[yeshaberto]

so many good points made already...
as stated already, God absolutely loves every homosexual as much as any heterosexual, simply because he is the creator of both.  the arrogant and haughty and judgmental Christian heterosexual disappoints God as much as the practiciing homosexual.  but not sure if I would say that it is necessarily arrogant and judgmental to agree that something is condemned by God (whether pride, sexual practices, etc). 
 

[hefdaddy42]

They're probably OK with people charging interest on loans, so I'd say you're even.

Okay, first of all, that's standard business practice.  You want some return if you're going to risk giving people this money and you want to take the change in the value of money (i.e. time value of money) into account.  Don't mix up smart business sense with some kind of religious silliness.

Yes, but charging interest on loans is spoken against in the Bible.  I think that is GP's point.  Basically, for every matter spoken against in the Bible that fundamentalists/literalists want to stress (homosexuality), there are other things spoken against in the Bible that they are OK with (loan interest, divorce, numerous others).

[yeshaberto]

as stated already, God absolutely loves every homosexual as much as any heterosexual, simply because he is the creator of both.  the arrogant and haughty and judgmental Christian heterosexual disappoints God as much as the practiciing homosexual.  but not sure if I would say that it is necessarily arrogant and judgmental to agree that something is condemned by God (whether pride, sexual practices, etc). 

God loves everyone, but our "acts" can bring us into corruption and sin. Love the sinner, hate the sin, a message the WBC needs someone to bash into them with a 2x4. But the idea that heterosexuals disappoint God as much as a homosexual and therefore homosexuality is fine is not valid. Taking the same argument above, atheists disappoint God as much as a murderer but that mean then that murder is a-ok? However both are still loved by God. That is very true.

My point was without the "therefore homosexuality is fine."  When a person takes the time to consider the log in their own eye first, it helps them to deal with the speck in someone elses with humility. 

For example, I initially accidentally modified your post instead of quoting and ended up having to delete your post.  I humbly apologize for that log in my eye 

[snapple]

I know gay Christians. Shit like that bugs me. It's a sin, and all sins are equal in God's eyes. It's just as sinful as rape, adultery, lying, etc.

[GuineaPig]

I know gay Christians. Shit like that bugs me. It's a sin, and all sins are equal in God's eyes. It's just as sinful as rape, adultery, lying, etc.

I just don't understand.

[ehra]

If we can't accept homosexuality because all sins are equal then we also can't accept anyone who follows a different religion or worships a different god.

[jammindude]

There's alot of dancing around here, but I wanted to take issue with a couple of things.   This is a subject that has always struck a chord with me, because you have two sides at two extremes, and everyone seems to promote their own agenda on either side without really looking as scripture as being the authority on the matter.

How about a parallel? 

First of all, someone mentioned that "God created homosexuals..."   God did not *directly* create any one of us here today.  God created Adam and Eve, and gave them the ability to *procreate*...  True, in a round about way, that *does*, in fact, mean that we all owe our very existence to God, but since Adam and Eve didn't procreate until after they had sinned, the entire process became flawed.   We are born into sin and imperfection because we were born to imperfect (not perfect) parents.    God realizes that this was NOT of our own doing...so he took steps to save us.  But that's another discussion.

Since we are ALL OF US born with flaws, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to think more of himself than any other person with a flaw (Rom 12:3).

Having said that, because we are born with freewill, we are accountable to God for the choices we make.   

God did not create an alcoholic...that is a flaw that a man is born with.    But "drunkards" will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  (1 Cor 6:10)  Period.  There is no judgement on my part.   If an alcoholic were to ever need my help to recover, I am under obligation to help him.  To teach him the word of God for himself, and to help him apply it in any way that I can.  (the old "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day...teach him how to fish and he'll eat forever" syndrome)   But he has to understand that if he gives in to his born inclination, he will lose out on life.    I love my brother...I would NEVER want to see that.  I would do anything to help him.  But at some point, he has to make a choice for himself as to what is more important...the drink, or life and a relationship with God. 

Some of us are born with greater tendencies to lie than others.  Some (like myself) have a daily struggle to remain monogamous.   I'm no better than anyone else...and I have a spotted history.   But if I were to just say, "Oh well, I was born this way..." and just go with my natural feelings, I would effectively END my relationship with God.   God understands that I have a struggle...he forgives me for the mistakes I've made.   But he will not forgive me if I were to go out and continue practicing it.   

So it's true that homosexuals to not have any *extra layer* of sin.   They don't get "death...plus one"...  We are ALL in the same boat. 

It essentially comes down to...will a person do what *THEY* want to do?  Or what *GOD* wants them to do.   Because we are born imperfect and fleshly, the two are diametrically opposed.    So we must lead a life of self-sacrifice.   Sacrificing what WE would like to do, and recognizing that only God (and no human) has the right to tell us what is right and what is wrong.   Not we ourselves. 

[GuineaPig]

Babies lie all the time.  Does God give them a free pass?

EDIT: And any argument that begins with talking about Adam and Eve is just begging the question.

[jammindude]

"... every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood..." (Gen 8:21)

Obviously...we all need to make an *educated* decision.   The scriptures make it clear that we must *learn* how to do what is right, because it's not in our nature to do so.    A child has not yet learned.

[jammindude]

I should add that...at the end of the day...it's not for me to judge anything.   At what age/maturity level does a child become responsible for his own decisions?  I think we would all agree that it most likely varies from child to child.  But God can read any person deeper than any of us can...so he is the final judge.   We simply must put his instruction into practice for ourselves, and help others see what those requirements are.   NOT by any personal interpretation...we cannot and should not put any personal spin on God's Word.   It speaks for itself. 


Drinking is not condemned (Ps 104:15)
Drunkeness is: (1Cor 6:10)

So what is drunk?   It's not for me to say.  I have my own opinions on the matter...but it is not my place to speak of where the line is drawn.   I could conjecture to say that since the scriptures also say that we must obey the law of the land (Rom 13:3, 4) that it would seem that we should never cross over into what local laws have labeled as "drunk"...but that's speculation.    Every man must make his own decision...but also be mindful that it means his life.  When the decision is that serious...how close to the edge do you really want to get?

[Sigz]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

[hefdaddy42]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

If they are Catholic, they go to Limbo or a waiting room or something.

The rest of them are just screwed, I guess.

[jammindude]

I cannot personally say.  I don't speak personally for God.   But God's Word does give us some guidance.

"...there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:15 ESV)  Other translations say "righteous and the wicked"...others say "righteous and unrighteous"...

Based on the principles provided in the rest of scripture, it would seem that everyone will have an opportunity to make an educated decision after they are resurrected and educated.   Jesus hints at this at John 5:28, 29.    Those who *practiced* righteousness will be given life...those practiced wickedness out of ignorance or lack of opportunity, will be judged after they have been given the opportunity to learn what is right and wrong from God and make their own decisions.

[jammindude]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

If they are Catholic, they go to Limbo or a waiting room or something.

The rest of them are just screwed, I guess.

This is an old theological myth.  It's become somewhat of a tradition...but it's not taught in scripture.

[hefdaddy42]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

If they are Catholic, they go to Limbo or a waiting room or something.

The rest of them are just screwed, I guess.

This is an old theological myth.  It's become somewhat of a tradition...but it's not taught in scripture.

Which one are you talking about?

[jammindude]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

If they are Catholic, they go to Limbo or a waiting room or something.

The rest of them are just screwed, I guess.

This is an old theological myth.  It's become somewhat of a tradition...but it's not taught in scripture.

Which one are you talking about?

Limbo

[the Catfishman]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

or people who do not have access to Christianity? it all seems a bit odd.

[jammindude]

So what happens to a child who dies before they could learn what is right/wrong?

or people who do not have access to Christianity? it all seems a bit odd.

I believe I addressed this 3-4 posts up.  The same would apply.

[skydivingninja]

They're probably OK with people charging interest on loans, so I'd say you're even.

Okay, first of all, that's standard business practice.  You want some return if you're going to risk giving people this money and you want to take the change in the value of money (i.e. time value of money) into account.  Don't mix up smart business sense with some kind of religious silliness.

Yes, but charging interest on loans is spoken against in the Bible.  I think that is GP's point.  Basically, for every matter spoken against in the Bible that fundamentalists/literalists want to stress (homosexuality), there are other things spoken against in the Bible that they are OK with (loan interest, divorce, numerous others).

Really?

They left that stuff out of Sunday school 

EDIT: Also, GP, looking at that post, I feel like it came out a bit harsh than intended.  I think I interpreted your post to talk about charging interest on loans is some horrible thing and missed your point simply because I had no idea it existed in the way you intended.  My bad dude. 

[kirksnosehair]

I prefer to keep things really simple: Live and let live.  The end


If Bob and Joe, or Susan and Judy want to hook up and be with each other, then that is between them and their own conscience (god).  Everything else is judgmental BS.


The end.


This is why I hate religion.  It divides people.

[snapple]

I'm pretty sure if Judy and Susan are hot there has to be some clause that allows it in the Bible.

[jammindude]

I prefer to keep things really simple: Live and let live.  The end


If Bob and Joe, or Susan and Judy want to hook up and be with each other, then that is between them and their own conscience (god).  Everything else is judgmental BS.


The end.


This is why I hate religion.  It divides people.

I could go on for pages about this...but I don't want to hijack the thread off topic.   I don't believe that everyone should do as they please...I believe exactly the opposite.   That we all need to know and understand that *only God* has the right to say what is "right" and "wrong" for his creation.   No human.    I do not have to right to say what is "right" and "wrong" or "good" or "evil" for anyone...not even myself.    Only God has the authority to tell me what is right and wrong.

But I do believe that "religion" (which is a creation of man...not God) does divide people.   I believe that from the beginning, God has stated laws and principles in regard to how he should be *WORSHIPED*.    It was only when men started getting *THEIR OWN* ideas (i.e. "well, I think it should be done this way!" or "well *I* think it should be done THAT way" with all sides implicitly ignoring and twisting God's instructions) that "religion" was born....in order to be able to distinguish one form of worship from another.

God invented "worship"...man invented "religion"...

Religion divides...true worship will (one day) unite all of creation.

"...and the last enemy he destroys will be death. When the Scriptures say that he will put everything under his power, they don't include God. It was God who put everything under the power of Christ. After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone." (1 Cor 15:26-28) Contemporary English Version

[rumborak]

Homosexuality is only an issue for people looking for issues in their lives. I can honestly say it barely registers in my daily life, despite the fact that a good friend of mine is gay.

rumborak

[Chino]

We have identified the gay gene in many species. Its is a biological mutation in the genome, just like cancer or being a dwarf. It can not be chosen and is not the fault of the person affected. I consider anyone who has a problem with that to be an ignorant fool.

[jammindude]

We have identified the gay gene in many species. Its is a biological mutation in the genome, just like cancer or being a dwarf. It can not be chosen and is not the fault of the person affected. I consider anyone who has a problem with that to be an ignorant fool.

I agree. 

They've discovered that the same is true of alcoholics. 


EDIT:  As I've stated before we are *ALL* born with genetic "defects".   No one is immune.  We are *all* flawed.  I myself feel that I was born a cheat...I've had to *learn* to be something else.     

[snapple]

Then let's cure them all.

[j]

We have identified the gay gene in many species. Its is a biological mutation in the genome, just like cancer or being a dwarf. It can not be chosen and is not the fault of the person affected.

They've discovered that the same is true of alcoholics. 

Not that I disagree with the point you guys are trying to make, but these are very bad comparisons.

Homosexuality is only an issue for people looking for issues in their lives. I can honestly say it barely registers in my daily life, despite the fact that a good friend of mine is gay.

rumborak

This is pretty much my take on it as well.  I can think of few major issues that directly affect me less.

-J

[GuineaPig]

Then let's cure them all.

not sure if srs



Partly because one cannot "cure" someone of their genetics, and also because I haven't found you to be a particularly offensive poster.

[snapple]

That's why I posted it like that. I wasn't serious.

I don't know, I think that as my (our) generation gets older, the gay issue is going to become a lesser issue.