Author Topic: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective  (Read 7584 times)

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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2012, 03:30:04 PM »
Sure, Scheavo, just keep in mind that merely listing them would be only the first half of the entire equation, so to speak. The other absolutely crucial task is the defense of the premises.

Before I list them, I'd like to ask you whether you'd like me to include very brief atheistic objections to the premises and a brief defense of the objections. Would you?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2012, 06:36:08 PM »
Huh? Well, I'm not going to argue for atheism, really, so I don't know how that's relevant. In my opinion, atheists and theists are both wrong, and for the same fundamental reasons.

Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2012, 07:16:59 PM »
I'll take that as a no. I fully expect to hear all sorts extremely silly "objections," and keep in mind that Craig doesn't simply state the arguments and sit back, expecting a slam dunk; he goes into great detail to reveal how each premise is more likely true than false and to expose objections. Here are the arguments that he most frequently presents:

Leibniz's Argument:

1.Everything that exists has an explanation for its existence.

2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

3. The universe exists.

4. The universe has an explanation for its existence.


The Kalam Cosmological Argument:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.


The Design Argument:

1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.

2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.

3. Therefore, it is due to design.


The Moral Argument:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.




There are more arguments that Craig knows and is perfectly capable of defending, yet these are the ones that he most frequently defends. Also, keep in mind that these arguments are logically coherent; that is to say that if the premises are true, then the conclusion follows logically from the premises.
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2012, 07:20:34 PM »
Nope, he wins debates because he's good at debating.  His arguments, frankly, are (in my personal view) bunk.

He's good at debating because his arguments are effective. He wouldn't be considered a good debater if he would defend logically incoherent or ludicrous arguments.

Besides, these are big words, Kirk, and frankly, I get the feeling that you don't believe in God for emotional reasons rather than intellectual ones.

But by all means, if you think they're bunk, I'd be very interested to know precisely how so.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2012, 09:25:14 PM »
Also, keep in mind that these arguments are logically coherent; that is to say that if the premises are true, then the conclusion follows logically from the premises.
OK, but some of those premises look kind of shaky to me.  And I'm a theist.
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2012, 10:02:46 PM »
Also, keep in mind that these arguments are logically coherent; that is to say that if the premises are true, then the conclusion follows logically from the premises.
OK, but some of those premises look kind of shaky to me.  And I'm a theist.

Hefdaddy, two questions:

1.) Have you had any type of philosophical foundation? Taken any philosophy classes? (From what I gather, you tend to worry more about biblical historicity and scholarship, right?)

2.) What premises trouble you? To re-iterate, when I say that the argument is logically coherent, I mean that if one were to accept the premises, the conclusion would flow coherently from the premises. In other words, you'd have to deny or reject one of the premises and give satisfying reasons for why the premise you deny is more reasonably false than true in order to reject the conclusion.

It would be silly, for example, to simply say "I the whole of Leibniz's argument is wrong!" Surely one wouldn't deny premise 3. that the universe exists, in a right state of mind, would they?

(Oh, and I'd really appreciate it if you stopped calling philosophical matters "bullshit"   :millahhhh)
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2012, 10:27:27 PM »
Hefdaddy, two questions:

1.) Have you had any type of philosophical foundation? Taken any philosophy classes?
Not really.  I never saw the point.

(From what I gather, you tend to worry more about biblical historicity and scholarship, right?)
Yes, that's correct.

2.) What premises trouble you?
"Trouble" is probably too strong a term.  Precisely because I lack the appropriate background.  I am admittedly a total layman here, and probably should have just kept my mouth shut.  It's just that some of the premises seem to be random statements that I see no reason, on the face of it, to accept.  Such as, "Everything that exists has a reason for its existence."  And no, I don't want to debate it.

To re-iterate, when I say that the argument is logically coherent, I mean that if one were to accept the premises, the conclusion would flow coherently from the premises. In other words, you'd have to deny or reject one of the premises and give satisfying reasons for why the premise you deny is more reasonably false than true in order to reject the conclusion.
Sure, that makes sense.

It would be silly, for example, to simply say "I the whole of Leibniz's argument is wrong!" Surely one wouldn't deny premise 3. that the universe exists, in a right state of mind, would they?
I agree.  But premises 1, 2 & 4 seem shaky to me.

(Oh, and I'd really appreciate it if you stopped calling philosophical matters "bullshit"   :millahhhh)
I'll see what I can do.  Likewise, as a moderator here, I'd really appreciate if you got along better with others here.  Let's both work on it, whatta ya say?
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2012, 11:00:53 PM »
Debating the existence of God is seriously one of the silliest things in the world.  I just don't understand why people on both sides of the argument, engage in it so much.  Especially because the debates typically involve two groups of people that will likely never be convinced by the other side.  It's all for show and the show is empty and pointless.  Granted, there may be people who go 'Well, that argument makes sense...' but I just don't see it happening much at all to warrant it.

Plus, to me, religion is all about faith.  It doesn't matter that you can or can't prove whether it's true, it's only important that you believe it's true.  And I say this as an atheist.

Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2012, 11:23:11 PM »
I have to agree with you, as a Christian.  God does not need a person to prove his existence any more than a father who is an architect needs his his son to draw up a house for him on "take your kid to work day".  Also, the Bible teaches that God is the one responsible for saving people, not people.  It is not my responsibility to argue my way into your heart to believe in God, and further to believe that Jesus was who he said he was, and did the things he said he did.

It is possible to share your thoughts and beliefs on the internet in a civil and respectful way, agree to disagree, and walk away having learned something.  Shockingly enough, most adults practice this.

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2012, 11:32:20 PM »
Good point King. I don't understand why some theists need to prove to atheists that they're wrong, or why some atheists need to prove to theists that they're wrong. Just believe what you believe and leave it at that.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2012, 12:53:43 AM »
Leibniz's Argument:

1.Everything that exists has an explanation for its existence.

2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

3. The universe exists.

4. The universe has an explanation for its existence.

2) It does not follow that if the universe has an explanation, that that explanation is God. Some versions of physics can posit multiverses, and some forms of quantum mechanics can almost make it so the universe exists because of itself. Or, to define God as such, basically tries to define away the argument, and doesn't actually answer the argument. Okay so, "God" exists, but what is it? How do you know it is such? And a variety of other questions. It's not an answer, it's a relocation of the problem.

And for number 1, if God exists, then what is his explanation for existing?

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The Kalam Cosmological Argument:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Basically, the same as the above.

Quote
The Design Argument:

1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.

2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.

3. Therefore, it is due to design.

And how is it that you so readily claim that it is not due to physical necessity or chance, and isn't that the question we're debating?

Perhaps there's more than one "universe," as we call them, and that in many others, the conditions aren't right for life, etc, and there's basically nothing. However, thermodynamics dictates the formation of most of the fundamental building blocks for life, and combine that with a very large universe, and lots of possibilities, and the very unlikely becomes true.

Quote
The Moral Argument:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

Number 1  works upon a fallaciously denying the antecedent (I believe I got the name right). Excuse my shorthand, but I'm feeling lazy: If God exists, then objective moral values exist. A -> B. God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist. ~A -> ~B. If it rains, and my car is outside, my car will be wet. It has not rained, therefor, my car will not be wet. As you can see, this is clearly false, because my car could be wet for other reasons.

Number 2 basically takes for granted something which doesn't appear to be true. There's some general consensus surrounding human morality, but there definitely isn't anything near enough similarity to say objective moral value exists. On top of that, this only takes into account human morality, and unwarrantly ignores how other animals and living things behave, act, and what kind of morality they follow.


The premises are rather dubious, if you ask me. Under the best case scenario, "God" becomes a term so broad and begging of questions, that it sorta defeats the point of what we set out to do in the first place. It becomes an empty answer.



Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2012, 01:15:56 AM »
To me it seems that all four arguments use the good old 'God of the Gaps', for all of them it would be easier and more philosophically sound to say 'we don't know yet' or 'we can't know' than to place God in the part of which we have no knowledge about and use this as evidence.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2012, 07:22:39 AM »
Those arguments are reaaaaaally begging the question.
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2012, 09:23:11 AM »
I fully expect to hear all sorts extremely silly "objections," and keep in mind that Craig doesn't simply state the arguments and sit back, expecting a slam dunk; he goes into great detail to reveal how each premise is more likely true than false and to expose objections.
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2012, 09:25:18 AM »
It would be silly, for example, to simply say "I the whole of Leibniz's argument is wrong!" Surely one wouldn't deny premise 3. that the universe exists, in a right state of mind, would they?
I agree.  But premises 1, 2 & 4 seem shaky to me.


To clarify, hefdaddy, Number 4. is not a premise. It is the conclusion. Indeed all final steps in these arguments are not premises; they are the conclusion of the arguments.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 09:30:46 AM by Omega »
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2012, 09:27:47 AM »
I fully expect to hear all sorts extremely silly "objections," and keep in mind that Craig doesn't simply state the arguments and sit back, expecting a slam dunk; he goes into great detail to reveal how each premise is more likely true than false and to expose objections.
Well, see, you already have your answer, so it's pointless to argue with you.

Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2012, 09:32:19 AM »
Not an answer, mate, a defense. Bring these "objections" up in a high school philosophy class and you'll be praying you didn't. These are not philosophically rigorous objections.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2012, 09:34:05 AM »
It would be silly, for example, to simply say "I the whole of Leibniz's argument is wrong!" Surely one wouldn't deny premise 3. that the universe exists, in a right state of mind, would they?
I agree.  But premises 1, 2 & 4 seem shaky to me.


To clarify, hefdaddy, Number 4. is not a premise. It is the conclusion. Indeed all final steps in these arguments are not premises; they are the conclusion of the arguments.

I think he meant 1,2 and 4 as in the the premises for arguments 1, 2, and 4 - Leibniz, Kalam, and Moral.
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2012, 09:39:54 AM »
Hmm, I don't think so, Sigz.

Besides that the wording of his response which indicates otherwise, he was responding to a comment of mine in which I illustrated why it would be ridiculous to deny the entire Leibniz's argument as one would also deny premise

3. The universe exists

which no sincere seeker of truth would deny.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2012, 09:43:14 AM »
*shrug*
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2012, 10:06:44 AM »
Good point King. I don't understand why some theists need to prove to atheists that they're wrong, or why some atheists need to prove to theists that they're wrong. Just believe what you believe and leave it at that.

I don't think it's particularly surprising really. Theists see their worldview under attack (and not without reason), so it's only natural they want to fire back and prove they are right. Atheists, I think, mostly argue in response. When I'm amongst my fellow non-believers, God is never a topic really.

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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2012, 10:45:27 AM »
Bring these "objections" up in a high school philosophy class and you'll be praying you didn't. These are not philosophically rigorous objections.

lol, claiming that opposing arguments belong in a high school 101 is incredibly easy and childish and saying stuff like that doesn't really add to your credibility.

anyway, here's Daniel Dennett with pretty much the same response to WLC's arguments as people made in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb10QvaHpS4 (you can skip to 5 min) The criticism is sound, you can't just place a (Chrisitan) God in the equation... it is all just speculation.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 11:02:01 AM by the Catfishman »

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2012, 10:58:45 AM »
The idea that you can deduce a Christian god from first principles only shows how much blinders WLC has on really. You might argue for a god, but the Christian (i.e. Abrahamic) god is just a rather random historic conglomerate. And not shared by the majority of the world's populous.

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Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2012, 11:59:30 AM »
The idea that you can deduce a Christian god from first principles only shows how much blinders WLC has on really. You might argue for a god, but the Christian (i.e. Abrahamic) god is just a rather random historic conglomerate. And not shared by the majority of the world's populous.

rumborak

I don't know how many times you need to be told that these philosophical arguments point to a god and not the Christian God, and Craig never says otherwise.

I've never heard of Leibniz's Argument but it looks kind of weird to me. Actually, TBH, even as a huge supporter of Craig, I think only the Kalam Cosmological Argument stands it's ground. But of course all you need is one valid argument for something to be true.

Fine-Tuning Argument - basically converted by Sigz (congrats buddy). Life isn't scientifically 'special' and any given universe you hypothesize is going to be extremely unlikely. Even if a universe consisted of ten specks of dust in a volume of, say 100 cubic meters, the possibilities of the arrangement of those specks of dust are near endless. Yet you wouldn't look at that universe and say it was designed.

Moral Argument - the second premise isn't necessarily true. Even if objective morality seemed obvious (i.e. a properly basic belief), one could easily say that natural selection made it seem obvious. Because we can never unbias ourselves by removing our humanity from our judgment calls, we can never really 'know' that morality is objective.

I do believe in objective morality and in the fine-tuning of the universe, but they are not useful in fundamental theist arguments.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2012, 12:06:53 PM »
I don't know how many times you need to be told that these philosophical arguments point to a god and not the Christian God, and Craig never says otherwise.

Sorry, I somehow had gotten the impression that that's what he was eventually aiming at. If not, then all the better, because it would otherwise massively undermine his credibility to argue for the provability of the Christian god.

Regarding Omega's list of arguments above, really only the Kalam one is of any interest. And even that one rests on things that are nowhere near axiomatic truth. (e.g. everything has a cause)
As others have pointed out, WLC is too eager to plug God into anything that hasn't been explained yet. His burden of proof is to show that a God is the only logical consequence for the universe we live in, but he is far away from that.
What he has shown is that you can't directly disprove God. But, that's not exactly news. However, WLC seems to jump from there to the conclusion that it must have been God who created the universe.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2012, 01:25:21 PM »
Not an answer, mate, a defense. Bring these "objections" up in a high school philosophy class and you'll be praying you didn't. These are not philosophically rigorous objections.

That's funny, because they did rather well in college level philosophy classes, classes where the proof of Leibniz was considered rather pathetic by everyone in the room - including the professor who barely tried to defend it, and basically just showed how it's a reformulation of other problematic proofs.

I also notice how you didn't refer to a single ONE of my reasons (of which there were many), and instead simply stated that they're "not rigorous," and with absolutely no justification. Try to pull that off in any philosophy class, and you'll get an F for not even doing the assignment.

You seem to be stuck on the idea that if the premises are true, then the conclusion follows, so that's proof. That's not a proof, and my bringing up objections to the premises in no way says anything about other premises.

ridiculous to deny the entire Leibniz's argument as one would also deny premise

3. The universe exists

Okay, see, this is just patently illogical, and not true. In denying that the second premise is true (and that the first premise is shaky), I am NOT making ANY statement about the third premise being True or False, and when I say that the conclusion is unreliable, I am again NOT saying that the Universe does not exist.

I can't even fathom how you think that's logically valid. I'd be willing to wager it's actually the fallacy of denying the antecedent. ~ B does NOT mean ~ A.

There's something even more wrong about this logic, but I can't put my finger on it just right now. But basically, if I put the premise, "The Universe Exists," in an absurdly illogical argument, that doesn't mean you have to agree with the argument, otherwise. Putting a obviously true premise in an argument, does not make that argument better, it does not make that argument sound, and it does not make that argument valid or true.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2012, 12:23:47 PM »
Debating the existence of God is seriously one of the silliest things in the world.  I just don't understand why people on both sides of the argument, engage in it so much.  Especially because the debates typically involve two groups of people that will likely never be convinced by the other side.  It's all for show and the show is empty and pointless.  Granted, there may be people who go 'Well, that argument makes sense...' but I just don't see it happening much at all to warrant it.

Plus, to me, religion is all about faith.  It doesn't matter that you can or can't prove whether it's true, it's only important that you believe it's true.  And I say this as an atheist.

I agree with every word of this, said the atheist-leaning agnostic.  :)

Offline Sigz

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2012, 12:36:05 PM »
I just find it interesting/fun to argue (well, sometimes :lol).
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2012, 01:40:49 PM »
I consider it an important and interesting enough question to never tune myself out of.

And then, seems like somewhat recently, people on this forum have begun to parade philosophy into the matter, as if anyone with any shred of philosophical training or honesty should agree with the theists, and that God exists. I guess you could say this irked my own education, and peaked my interest a little. Seeing as how I haven't seen anything new, and the responses are largely attacking straw men and the creations of false dichotomies, I'll probably go back to just ignoring all threads regarding religion.