Declaring a national language.

[Chino]

How does everyone feel about declaring English as the official language of the United States? I personally am all for it. I understand this is the land of the free, and one could speak any language they choose, but I feel that the country can not be unified (to its fullest potential) without there being a definitive language. Granted people can group together in communities of their own languages, but they can't succeed. In the early 1900's when people of all different countries flocked here, they all learned English. They may have kept their native language in the home, but they still learned it for the sake of advancing within the country. I'm not sure how it is everywhere else, but there are some cities surrounding my town where people really can't speak english. They know enough to ring someone up at a register, but they can't communicate by any means. I don't think it is a coincidence that these are the places and people that are struggling the most financially.

I believe this country took a turn for the worse once it began printing road maps in Spanish as well as English. That act opened the floodgates to printing everything, not just in Spanish, but in dozens of languages. This applies ten fold to our education system. For some reason we think it is not appropriate to force children to learn English in order to get through our school systems, instead we accomnodate them by offering the same classes with instructors that teach them in their language. That's cool and all, but how are they suppose to get anywhere in life? Whether declared the national language or not, speaking English is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, key to success in this country. I can't think of a single job that will pay more than 12 dollars an hour, other than construction, that can be done by someone who is not fluent in English.

I believe the lack of a national language has also made our country less unified. It's hard to see America as a country made of people that all have a common goal in mind. I feel this is mostly do to the language barriers that have seperated us as people. In a sense, I feel like 'America' is gone, it is more like many countries all sharing the North American region.

I had to type this quick, so forgive me for grammatical errors and if some things don't make much sense, I have to get to class.

Discuss.

[7StringedBeast]

I concur with your post and sentiment.  I think English most definitely should be the national language.  Nothing else makes sense.

[yorost]

I'm against declaring national languages.  If you're part of a small minority that speaks a different language in a country, the onus should be on you to translate.  If you're part of a group that has a significant presence and a unique language, it isn't unreasonable to assume documents take your language into account.  That's perfectly fine if 3-4 languages cover 95% of the population, but challenging if no language represents 15%.

The problem is trying to declare a language is usually a grasp at holding on to the past.  It's an attempt to stuff out change and keep your own group more prominent, a sign of decline in power.

[rumborak]

I am all for it too I have to say. Being someone who works daily on overcoming language barriers between people, I can say that whenever people can't communicate, they assume the worst of the other side.

The question is though: Declaring English as the official is all nice, but what's the conclusions drawn from that? No longer non-English gov't forms for example?

rumborak

[El Barto]

I don't honestly give a shit one way or the other.  I speak English so I'm completely unaffected.

I will point out a couple of things.  Just so we're all clear,  this is only about Mexicans.  Trying to couch it differently is about as valid as the confederate flag/=racism thing.  Nobody (except me, presumably) likes hearing Mexicans speak in Spanish,  and they get pissy about it.

Secondly,  the problems are hugely overblown, save for the one about annoyance.  The notion that Spanish speakers is contributing to the disunity in this nation is absurd.  We've allowed out society to be boiled down to the two lowest denominators,  and used that difference to further separate agendas.  This is the fault of us and the nature of our government,  not the Mexicans. 

I'll also point out,  as I have before,  that the younger generation of Mexicans all speak English well.  It's the older ones who don't/won't/can't adapt,  and they'll die off in the end, anyway.  Contrary to popular belief,  they do tend to learn English while attending school. 

It actually occurs to me that trying to force them out of being able to use Spanish would probably hinder the process, as well.  The people who don't speak English will still figure out ways to adapt,  and that'll further isolate them from the rest of us.

Lastly,  I live in a city with a huge Mexican population,  and I grew up in Oak Cliff where the Mexicans far outnumbered everybody else,  and I have a hard time thinking of an instance where I've actually been inconvenienced by Spanish being used.  Like they're the only ones that occasionally hold up the line at the grocery store?

[Ryzee]

^ That


Born, raised & still living in So Cal, been around Spanish and Spanish speakers my whole life, never had a problem with it, not sure what anyone else's problem with it is. 

[GuineaPig]

Don't see a point, really. 

[yorost]

Don't see a point, really. 

To exert one culture's dominance over another's.

[Chino]

It actually occurs to me that trying to force them out of being able to use Spanish would probably hinder the process, as well.  The people who don't speak English will still figure out ways to adapt,  and that'll further isolate them from the rest of us.

But it's that isolation that is hindering the country, in my opinion. That isolation does nothing but form groups of a common poverty (in most cases) and poor education. It's not adaption, it's barely hanging on to survival. This costs tax payers a shit load, because they now have to support communities that can't support themselves. I'm not saying this is the case in every non speaking english community, but the majority.

Born, raised & still living in So Cal, been around Spanish and Spanish speakers my whole life, never had a problem with it, not sure what anyone else's problem with it is. 

How are they with English? I'm not saying to discourage people from speaking other languages, I'm saying just make sure you can speak English.

The problem is trying to declare a language is usually a grasp at holding on to the past.  It's an attempt to stuff out change and keep your own group more prominent, a sign of decline in power.

The problem is that a country with many different languages hinders change. The rate at which we can change is greatly slowed down because we have to wait for everyone to catch up. Look at what our country accomplished in the 60's. Everyone was on board with the common goal of improving our country. Today, it seems people don't wan't to part of a country, they just want to live on a plot of land with no care in the world about others that are not like them. I feel like our power has declined because of too many languages. It's not holding onto the past for the sake of keeping dominance, it's preserving the elemnet of this country that allowed up to succeed and prosper.

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[juice]

Isn't English already the national language?

[El Barto]

I disagree with most of that.  Typically,  Mexicans tend to be much more community and family active than white Americans.  If you view isolationism as a problem with our society,  it's really people like me who are the bigger issue.

Today, it seems people don't wan't to part of a country, they just want to live on a plot of land no care in the world about others that are not like them.

Welcome to Barto's world.

As for poverty,  the numbers don't support it either.  People of all ethnicity tend to grab themselves some welfare at the same rate.  The ones we object to are the lazy fucks that would rather collect handouts than work,  and those aren't the Mexicans. 

Changing culture is an interesting thing.  What expedites change in this situation is the addition of new cultures.  Forcing them to adapt to ours doesn't help matters.  Consider the taco*.  What we consider a taco is an American thing,  loosely based on it's Mexican ancestor, but bearing little resemblance.  In the Mexican parts of Dallas,  you'll find tons of genuine Taquerías.  They're ubiquitous.  Over the last fifteen years or so,  white folk have developed a real taste for the old school variety.  Now we're seeing a huge influx of taquerias for Americans.  Everything is in English,  they're not quite as spicy,  and they cost 50% more.  Now more people get to eat good tacos,  and plenty of them will revert back to the places where the menu is written in chalk and in Spanish,  because they prefer lingua to skirt steak.  This is a change which happened entirely because of large pockets of Mexican culture.  We're adapting, they're adapting.  Everybody wins. 



*Consider the taco is now a phrase I intend to use far more often. 

[MetalMike06]

Don't see a point, really.

This. And besides, most states tend to declare an official language anyway. By default, it's to everyone's advantage to learn English, and like Barto said, most of the younger ones are learning it in school anyway. Codifying it into law, especially nationally, just isn't necessary IMO. I guess I don't really care one way or another though.

[eric42434224]

Don't see a point, really.

This. And besides, most states tend to declare an official language anyway. By default, it's to everyone's advantage to learn English, and like Barto said, most of the younger ones are learning it in school anyway. Codifying it into law, especially nationally, just isn't necessary IMO. I guess I don't really care one way or another though.

And what is declaring English the National Language going to do anyway?
Its not like every person who doesnt speak English is going to run out and sign up for night scool english classes.
What will we do if you cant, or wont, speak it?

But I agree that everyone living in America should try and learn the language.

[Ryzee]

[

Born, raised & still living in So Cal, been around Spanish and Spanish speakers my whole life, never had a problem with it, not sure what anyone else's problem with it is. 

How are they with English? I'm not saying to discourage people from speaking other languages, I'm saying just make sure you can speak English.

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In my experience they can usually get by.  It's a broad spectrum.  I've had tons of Mexican friends who spoke English just fine obviously but spoke Spanish too with their parents or other Spanish speakers.  I've known and worked with people who's English was fairly limited, or their accent was very heavy, but they made due.  I don't think English needs to be legally declared the "official" language of the U.S.  To me it already is basically the official language and that's always been my stance.  I don't really speak Spanish.  I may mess around with it here and there but whenever a Spanish speaker has asked me "speak Spanish?"  I'm always like "no, sorry" and then they make due with whatever English they can swing. 

I used to work in a music store so I would get tons of banda groups with their cowbody hats and belt buckles and all of that.  They'd usually have one spokesperson who would come up to me, say "speak-a Spanish?" I'd say "no, sorry" they'd go back to their group and have a little meeting in Spanish, then the spokesperson would come back and work with whatever English he/she knew to indicate that they had cash and wanted to buy this stand-up bass, accordion, whatever.  This is 'merica, we speak English here, so if you want to get by here you ought to know as much English as you can.  If they choose to live a predominatly Spanish-speaking life here then that's their bad, but it doesn't bother me.  Lots of people choose to live their life here surrounded by their "own kind" all the time.  Living in communities with predominantly their own race, sending their kids to schools with predominantly their own race, going to churches with predominantly their own race, etc.  White people do it all the time.

[Chino]

Today, it seems people don't wan't to part of a country, they just want to live on a plot of land no care in the world about others that are not like them.

Changing culture is an interesting thing.  What expedites change in this situation is the addition of new cultures.  Forcing them to adapt to ours doesn't help matters.  Consider the taco*.  What we consider a taco is an American thing,  loosely based on it's Mexican ancestor, but bearing little resemblance.  In the Mexican parts of Dallas,  you'll find tons of genuine Taquerías.  They're ubiquitous.  Over the last fifteen years or so,  white folk have developed a real taste for the old school variety.  Now we're seeing a huge influx of taquerias for Americans.  Everything is in English,  they're not quite as spicy,  and they cost 50% more.  Now more people get to eat good tacos,  and plenty of them will revert back to the places where the menu is written in chalk and in Spanish,  because they prefer lingua to skirt steak.  This is a change which happened entirely because of large pockets of Mexican culture.  We're adapting, they're adapting.  Everybody wins. 

*Consider the taco is now a phrase I intend to use far more often.

I agree with that completely, but you also agreed with what I said. If those places didn't have a good grasp of the English language, they would not succeed. If these places opened all over the country, only in spanish, they would be out of business in a month (in most parts of the country). They can have names of things on the menu in spanish because that's where the food is from and what it was originally called. They assimilated part of their business in order to succeed, and that was by doing things in English (ordering supplies, working with banks, marketing tactics, zoning issues within towns, etc). I gurantee that the majority of owners and their management teams know a great deal of English. I am in no way saying to get rid of culture. I think cultural diversity is a great and possitive thing.

[Chino]

[

Born, raised & still living in So Cal, been around Spanish and Spanish speakers my whole life, never had a problem with it, not sure what anyone else's problem with it is. 

How are they with English? I'm not saying to discourage people from speaking other languages, I'm saying just make sure you can speak English.

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 If they choose to live a predominatly Spanish-speaking life here then that's their bad, but it doesn't bother me.  Lots of people choose to live their life here surrounded by their "own kind" all the time.  Living in communities with predominantly their own race, sending their kids to schools with predominantly their own race.

But "their bad" causes a lot of poverty and shitty living conditions, and sending them to schools where the problem can't be corrected just makes the issue go on longer.

 

Don't see a point, really.

This. And besides, most states tend to declare an official language anyway. By default, it's to everyone's advantage to learn English, and like Barto said, most of the younger ones are learning it in school anyway. Codifying it into law, especially nationally, just isn't necessary IMO. I guess I don't really care one way or another though.

Where I am from, the younger one's aren't learning it. You can go all the way through 8th grade, and in some cases all of highschool, being taught in Spanish. These kids get out and can't go to college, and end up having to settle for a job paying minimum wage.

[eric42434224]

What does piss me off is when a customer gets pissed at me because I dont speak spanish!

[yorost]

What does piss me off is when a customer gets pissed at me because I dont speak spanish!

You don't speak Spanish, you probably just misinterpreted their pissiness

[eric42434224]

LOL.  Yes Im sure.  They speak some broken English, but feel more comfortable obviously in speaking Spanish.  So they get mad and frustrated because I, or any other advisor, speaks spanish.  I wont do business with anyone that cant fully understand, speak, and write English.

[Super Dude]

I'm against it. As comedian Eddie Izzard humorously points out, the Dutch speak seven languages and smoke marijuana. In Britain, radio and TV news broadcasts in English, Welsh, Hindi, Farsi and a mess of others. I don't see why we can't handle bilingual society. And I kinda like the idea of being able (and needing) to speak multiple languages, because it really opens up a realm of business and personal opportunities.

[Chino]

I'm against it. As comedian Eddie Izzard humorously points out, the Dutch speak seven languages and smoke marijuana. In Britain, radio and TV news broadcasts in English, Welsh, Hindi, Farsi and a mess of others. I don't see why we can't handle bilingual society. And I kinda like the idea of being able (and needing) to speak multiple languages, because it really opens up a realm of business and personal opportunities.

It isn't a matter of handling a a multiple language country, we are already doing that. It's trying to prosper in a muliple language country. Sure multiple languages is good for business, if we are doing business in other countries. My point is that it hinders business and a person's ability to find a decent job within this country.

[Super Dude]

Maybe at a certain level, but multilingual ability has found its way into domestic business as well, specifically because it's now necessary to be able to communicate with immigrants and other foreign-language clients.

[Chino]

Maybe at a certain level, but multilingual ability has found its way into domestic business as well, specifically because it's now necessary to be able to communicate with immigrants and other foreign-language clients.

Business can do that because their primary language is English and they can make bank by knowing other languages. However, those immigrants that are getting catered to couldn't do the same thing in reverse. That's the whole point of my argument is that we are dumbing down life for them, so much to the point that they don't ever get into a position where they could ever really succeed. The argument isn't whether business should learn other languages to accommodate the ones who don't speak English, but for those who don't speak English to learn it in order to succeed in business.

[Ryzee]

[

Born, raised & still living in So Cal, been around Spanish and Spanish speakers my whole life, never had a problem with it, not sure what anyone else's problem with it is. 

How are they with English? I'm not saying to discourage people from speaking other languages, I'm saying just make sure you can speak English.

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 If they choose to live a predominatly Spanish-speaking life here then that's their bad, but it doesn't bother me.  Lots of people choose to live their life here surrounded by their "own kind" all the time.  Living in communities with predominantly their own race, sending their kids to schools with predominantly their own race.

But "their bad" causes a lot of poverty and shitty living conditions, and sending them to schools where the problem can't be corrected just makes the issue go on longer.

 

Dang I'm going to sound like a right-winger for a minute here, but if they purposely choose to put themselves at a disadvantage then what can we do about it?  Also, I'm really not getting the "they go to schools that teach them in Spanish and they never learn English thing."  I know a ton of people who work in education here in the L.A. area, including my wife, and I've never heard of Spanish-speaking kids being taught in Spanish only at school and never learning English.  I have a co-worker who's Mexican, and who's first kid pretty much knew Spanish only until he went to school (in LAUSD) where he started learning English.  So I'm not getting that point.  My experience is limited though and I'm probably being pretty naive, I don't know.  I don't really know a lot about stuff which is why I shouldn't get involved in P/R discussions anyway.  Sorry guys!

[Super Dude]

Maybe at a certain level, but multilingual ability has found its way into domestic business as well, specifically because it's now necessary to be able to communicate with immigrants and other foreign-language clients.

Business can do that because their primary language is English and they can make bank by knowing other languages. However, those immigrants that are getting catered to couldn't do the same thing in reverse. That's the whole point of my argument is that we are dumbing down life for them, so much to the point that they don't ever get into a position where they could ever really succeed. The argument isn't whether business should learn other languages to accommodate the ones who don't speak English, but for those who don't speak English to learn it in order to succeed in business.

I see. Well, I'm sure there's a way to incentivize that shift without requiring a nationally mandated language.

[El Barto]

I agree with that completely, but you also agreed with what I said. If those places didn't have a good grasp of the English language, they would not succeed. If these places opened all over the country, only in spanish, they would be out of business in a month (in most parts of the country). They can have names of things on the menu in spanish because that's where the food is from and what it was originally called. They assimilated part of their business in order to succeed, and that was by doing things in English (ordering supplies, working with banks, marketing tactics, zoning issues within towns, etc). I gurantee that the majority of owners and their management teams know a great deal of English. I am in no way saying to get rid of culture. I think cultural diversity is a great and possitive thing.

I don't think you're right,  but if you are,  then why do we need to force them?  Let the market sort it out.  Seems to me that the biggest gripe would be from the people who saw all these great tacos going out,  but couldn't deal with the people making them not speaking English.  That's Whitey's problem.  The Mexicans would adapt if this was a market they wanted,  and Whitey would jump in if there were an untapped market.

Where I am from, the younger one's aren't learning it. You can go all the way through 8th grade, and in some cases all of highschool, being taught in Spanish. These kids get out and can't go to college, and end up having to settle for a job paying minimum wage.

For one thing,  I don't think anybody would object to making sure that a person had to read and write English before graduating high school.  In fact,  I suspect that it's already the law everywhere.  Like so many other issues,  fix the laws you  have before going out to make new ones.  Aside from that,  like Judge Smales said,  the world needs ditch diggers too.  Frankly,  the more people we have willing to take minimum wage jobs,  the better for society in general.  From my perspective,  Americans and their misguided sense of entitlement is a bigger issue than uneducated Mexicans working for cheap.



edit:  Won't somebody please think about the tacos!

[yeshaberto]

I can't see any value in declaring english a national language, but I do see harm in enabling those who don't speak english.  especially for all the reasons mentioned. 

[j]

Like Barto, I've spent much of my life in areas heavily populated by Spanish-speakers, and it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.  I don't know that public schools teaching classes in Spanish is actually keeping anyone from learning English who otherwise would.  The vast, vast majority of the younger generation is bilingual.

Chino, you make some interesting points, but I'm not sure what you're arguing.  Is it that it is too costly to provide services, documents, etc. in two languages?  Or that not knowing English is a disadvantage that is keeping individuals or a population from prosperity?  The "isolationist" argument doesn't make much sense to me; people have plenty of little differences, and will find reason to isolate themselves if they are inclined to do so.  Cultural identity and all that bullshit goes beyond just shared language.

I don't have strong feelings either way on this issue, I'm just trying to understand the arguments being made here.

-J

[El Barto]

And for that matter,  what about the black folk?  If we're concerned about Mexicans settling into their own cozy little neighborhood and not thoroughly integrating into ours,  the same could be said about any other ethnicity.  There are decidedly black parts of town down here,  and while they speak [kinda sort of] the same language as me,  there's absolutely no shared identity, nor is one desired by either party.  Hell,  I'd probably consider myself more connected to the Hispanic community than the black one,  despite only knowing two or three words of Spanish. 

(There doesn't appear to be any taco relevance between black and white culture.)

[Cool Chris]

(There doesn't appear to be any taco relevance between black and white culture.)

Fried chicken?

I used to be a proponent of a national language, but I have softened my views over the years. I hate having to listen to “for Spanish, press ocho” when I call someone, but it really isn’t that annoying. I wish everyone spoke proper English, just for sake of being able to understand everyone for business/consumer purposes. And I honestly think it might help them feel more connected to society. But as Barto said, there is much more to an ‘identity’ that language. When my family came here from (what was) Yugoslavia, they realized right away they better learn English if they expect to get by and prosper. That feeling seems to be lacking now, since we'll go out of our way to accommodate you.

Some of the parents of my wife’s students don’t speak English, and during parent-teacher meetings, the school is responsible for providing a translator. That bothers me. But again, not directly related to having a national language.

[Dr. DTVT]

I'm against it, namely because it's a waste of time to get it done and have little or no effect in the long term, as people will adapt one way or another.

Now if we could just get the world to agree to all use one language.  In chemistry (and probably other fields as well), the top journals are English, so English is usually required to get ahead.

[Omega]

It also greatly astounds me how some people (especially in the Southwest and in states bordering Mexico) say things like "Why are so many people speaking Spanish?" or "I can't be expected to know any language except English!" when Mexico - the world's largest Spanish-speaking country - is our next door neighbor.

You don't see many, say, French people living near Germany speaking only French, do you?

[El Barto]

Now if we could just get the world to agree to all use one language.  In chemistry (and probably other fields as well), the top journals are English, so English is usually required to get ahead.

Actually,  in some ways English really is becoming the world language.  Every pilot and every air traffic controller in the world speak, at least, rudimentary English. 

Any country with an interest in accommodating tourists speaks English, as well.  Hell,  I heard more English than French when I was in Paris.  Most of the young people in Europe spoke English passably.  Plenty of countries require you to learn it in school. 

Some countries actually include English as their official languages.

The 1987 constitution designated the Filipino language, which is based on Tagalog with the inclusion of terms from all recognized languages of the Philippines, as the national language. It also designated both Filipino and English as the official languages for purposes of communication and instruction, and designated the regional languages as auxiliary official languages in the regions to serve as auxiliary media of instruction therein.

Can you imagine the collective uproar if somebody proposed making English and Spanish official languages of The United States?

[PraXis]

I'm for a national language, but not a national language law.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know if a law is necessary, but El Barto is definitely right that this is only about Mexicans.  Other nationalities that come here (even other Latins) learn English, at least rudimentarily.  I get pissed when a customer calls and they get pissed that I don't speak Spanish.  But AFAIK, that is a frustration that they have to overcome, just like many others when you emigrate.