Heritage Not Hate

[rumborak]

Is there any point in trying to tease those two apart when they were so inextricably linked? Slavery was integral to their economy, so obviously they were going to oppose anything that would bring down their economy.

rumborak

[Implode]

No, not really. You're right.

[MasterShakezula]

 I really don't see a reason to be offended by one's flying a Confederate flag unless they've actually got racist/prejudiced reasoning behind doing so.

 Though, if a  school doesn't want that sort of thing, racist undertones or not, students really shouldn't be doing that. 

[El Barto]

Are you agreeing with me?

The war was caused by succession. Succession was caused by Lincoln being elected and the restrictions of slavery in the western states. I know that was taking away rights from the states being able to choose for themselves, but it was more the slavery than the principle only because the south's economy greatly depended on the agriculture.

Let's not overlook the fact that this thing was brewing for decades before Abe got elected.  This situation snowballed and the divisive blow was inevitable.  It might well have been Lincoln's abolitionist demeanor that sparked it,  but there had to have been the knowledge that confrontation was inevitable due to his election.  Still a state's rights issue.

[The King in Crimson]

A state's right issue to keep slaves.

[Implode]

Guys let's be honest. It was obviously about the money.

[rumborak]

Eh. You can't tell me there weren't a good number of people who wanted to defend their right to own and treat an inferior human being as they pleased. Which is the irony since the same area prides itself with being the most Christian.

rumborak

[Dr. DTVT]

Eh. You can't tell me there weren't a good number of people who wanted to defend their right to own and treat an inferior human being as they pleased. Which is the irony since the same area prides itself with being the most Christian.

rumborak

the South also has 9 of the 10 highest divorce rates.  Thank you Nevada!

In all seriousness though, it would be nice if they had a different symbol to express their Southern pride, because there is nothing wrong about being proud of where you're from.  But as someone else said, its really hard to give a symbol a new meaning, particularly if it has a very negative one attached to it.  Swastika history anyone?

[Progmetty]

I've done a lot of research on this subject last year. Just cause I wanted to compare the effect the confederate flag has to the NSDAP flag. I'm with the people who're against public display of the flag, it has nothing to do with what the flag originally mean or the history involved, a lot of people associate it with one sensitive part of the country's history that's offensive to Black people. The KKK and other white supremacy groups in the U.S have doubled the damage by consistently using the flag as their own. This is just a small example of how the confederate flag along side the NSDAP flag are used by these groups today and mean the same thing to the common man.
If you display the NSDAP flag and go "Well I'm honoring the party under which the first modern highway was built, initiated the fist animal rights laws, constructed the first universal health care system and without their technology we wouldn't have made it to the moon, etc" and I'll be correct but nobody remembers or cares about any of this, the NSDAP flag is a racist symbol that the common man would only associate with the master race ideology.
How does it work in Germany? Proudly display a NSDAP flag like they do the confederate flag here and you will be arrested and either fined a considerable sum or go to jail for up to three years.If you said Seig Heil in public you go to jail, if you raise your right arm in the NSDAP saluting manner you go to jail and I can go on about these German laws. Mofos are leaving nothing to chance.
Obviously the U.S wouldn't enforce a ban law on displaying anything no matter what it is  and that's one up on Germany as an indivisible part of the American identity is this freedom of speech we're really lucky to have. So I agree with whoever is against the display of the confederacy flag but I'm definitely against forcing people not to, like in the case from the OP. I'm even against the kid claiming heritage, he has the right to tell them off and say "This is who I am, fu" and take it to court.

[hefdaddy42]

I live in North Carolina, and have traveled throughout the South all of my life.  The only people who fly the Confederate flag are racist assholes.  People that really just take pride in their Southern heritage don't bother with flying the flag, because it is a symbol of slavery.  You people who say otherwise are fooling yourselves.

Yeah, the Civil War was about states' rights.  States' rights to slavery.

I DESPISE the fucking Confederate flag.  I view it as the symbol of a defeated nation.  It is a symbol of Southern history, yes; everything that is wrong with Southern history.

[El Barto]

I live in North Carolina, and have traveled throughout the South all of my life.  The only people who fly the Confederate flag are racist assholes.

Along with the entire state of Mississippi and drivers in nine Southern states.




As luck would have it,  we live in a place that affords one the right to be an asshole.

[hefdaddy42]

Oh yes, certainly.

[The King in Crimson]

And other people have the right to tell them that they are being assholes.

[jsem]

"I consider flags to be symbols, and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded."
- George Carlin


I don't agree 100% with that statement, but captures how I feel about this flag issue.

[eric42434224]

initiated the fist animal rights laws,

Say wha?  What kind of animals are being fisted?

[hefdaddy42]

Wow, that conjures up some disturbing imagery.

[The King in Crimson]

Wow, that conjures up some disturbing imagery.

Which is only one-click away on Google!

[Progmetty]

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I think I'll get a tattoo of a vagina, that way I can go around telling everyone that I'm proud of where I came from.

[snapple]

I think I'll get a tattoo of a vagina, that way I can go around telling everyone that I'm proud of where I came from.

 

I just think that today it's hard to say the Confederate flag stands for racism. But, I live in Northern Michigan and our black population can be counted on our hands (don't even need my feet to count them!).

[hefdaddy42]

I just think that today it's hard to say the Confederate flag stands for racism. But, I live in Northern Michigan and our black population can be counted on our hands (don't even need my feet to count them!).

Why do you think it's hard to say that?  Certainly no one currently flying it fought in the Confederate army.  They never lived through the time symbolized by the flag.  The Confederate Flag is NOT a symbol of the South in general; the Confederacy only existed for a few years.  Those few years are all that could possibly be symbolized by the flag in regards to Southern culture.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I didn't say that.

[hefdaddy42]

I didn't say that.

Fixed. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

It's most definitely not a symbol of racism.

[GuineaPig]

It's most definitely not a symbol of racism.

It baffles me how anyone could think this.

[hefdaddy42]

It's most definitely not a symbol of racism.

It baffles me how anyone could think this.

Me too.

[Implode]

I think the answer to that is simple:

"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.

[hefdaddy42]

I think the answer to that is simple:

"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.

That's not logic, that's stupidity.

[eric42434224]

It is an emotional issue.  Logic can go out the window when dealing with strong emotions, regardless of the emotions being "right" or "wrong".

[El Barto]

I think the answer to that is simple:

"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.

That's not logic, that's stupidity.

And that's pointless condescension,  as well as just plain simple mindedness.  It's a symbol.  People ascribe values to symbols.  Just because you associate it with racism doesn't mean that it is always intended as such.  Likewise,  racist assholes using it as such doesn't dictate it's overall meaning.  Frankly,  I'd say it's largely up to the person displaying it what the intended meaning is,  and while plenty of people might want to assume something,  that doesn't mean they're right. 

[lordxizor]

It really comes down to intent versus the actual effect. Kind of like the colleges who use Indian mascots and say "we do it it honor the native population of our area" while the Indians say "we don't feel honored by this." There may be people who fly the Confederate flag without a thought of racism, but there are tons of people who view it as being a racist symbol.

[eric42434224]

Lets be honest here.  The overwhelming majority of people displaying this flag do so not for purely racist reasons, or to support the confederacy.
It is displayed by posers that want to be identified as the southern Good Ole Boy redneck type.  It is no different than the 20 yr old white kid that lives at home and works at Wendys...and dresses/acts like he is a full on gangsta thug.
Wannabe posers wanting to be identified as belonging to a certain group. It is highly unlikely that most who display the flag have any clue as to its history.
But on the other side, the bad apples in that Good Ole Boy group are blatantly racist.  And many of that group, real or posers, definitely act racist.  I can easily see how that flag can be thought of as racist by some.
Go talk to that Good Ole Boy with the flag in the back of the pick up......I have.....Im related to some.....they may not show it in certain scenarios, but many/most are racist to varying degrees.

[hefdaddy42]

I think the answer to that is simple:

"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.

That's not logic, that's stupidity.

And that's pointless condescension,  as well as just plain simple mindedness.  It's a symbol.  People ascribe values to symbols.  Just because you associate it with racism doesn't mean that it is always intended as such.  Likewise,  racist assholes using it as such doesn't dictate it's overall meaning.  Frankly,  I'd say it's largely up to the person displaying it what the intended meaning is,  and while plenty of people might want to assume something,  that doesn't mean they're right.

Symbol is about communicating without language.  It isn't just up to the person displaying the symbol, it is a two-way street.

And eric, you are exactly right.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

I think the answer to that is simple:

"It doesn't make me/people I know think of racism, therefore it doesn't represent racism."

I'm not saying I agree with that, but I think that's the logic that's going on here.

That's not logic, that's stupidity.

And that's pointless condescension,  as well as just plain simple mindedness.  It's a symbol.  People ascribe values to symbols.  Just because you associate it with racism doesn't mean that it is always intended as such.  Likewise,  racist assholes using it as such doesn't dictate it's overall meaning.  Frankly,  I'd say it's largely up to the person displaying it what the intended meaning is,  and while plenty of people might want to assume something,  that doesn't mean they're right.

Yup.