Author Topic: Heritage Not Hate  (Read 8946 times)

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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2012, 02:34:20 PM »
In addition to that, I just think Reap is way off base with that analogy.  Using the word "fag" is not a symbol of one's heritage in any way, shape, or form.  It's a slur against a particular group, plain and simple.

When I grew up though, it wasn't.  It was just something to say to someone you really didn't like.  It wasn't about gay or not gay.  But, obviously, that meaning of the word has become culturally irrelevant.

At this point, if you try to call someone a fag and say "but I wasn't trying to say anything negative about gay people as a whole," you're either really out of touch or intentionally trying to ruffle features.  I don't see how fighting to display the confederate flag as a symbol of heritage when you don't even live in the south is any different.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2012, 03:03:25 PM »
I'm kind of surprised that so many people think that the culture of pre-civil war South is defined by slavery.  When I think of Southern culture,  I think about how we know how to cook a fucking breakfast.  The fact that the civil war is strictly defined as pro vs anti slavery is also kind of disconcerting.
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2012, 03:11:14 PM »
I'm kind of surprised that so many people think that the culture of pre-civil war South is defined by slavery.  When I think of Southern culture,  I think about how we know how to cook a fucking breakfast.  The fact that the civil war is strictly defined as pro vs anti slavery is also kind of disconcerting.

I agree with this.  I am not from the south, but I do have a lot of family there and have spent a good amount of time visiting there.  I really like the south.  It's nice and the people are usually very nice.  They have a certain way of living and a different culture.  It has nothing to do with racism.  There is racism everywhere in the country, not just the south.

The way I see it is you can use the confederate flag to show some southern pride or if you are racist, I'm sure you can find a way to use it in an offensive manor as well.  I think it is a huge misconception by northerners that the confederate flag means "I fucking love slavery" to southerners.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2012, 03:13:47 PM »
Same here.  But whatev.  I don't really have a dog in this fight, so I'm willing to leave well enough alone.  It's kind of disappointing to have people imply you must be a racist just because you stand up for someone else's right to display something that doesn't have racist connotations.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2012, 03:18:26 PM »
The fact that the civil war is strictly defined as pro vs anti slavery is also kind of disconcerting.

But wasn't that the root of the problems? I thought pro vs anti slavery was the reason that states succeeded in the first place.

It's kind of disappointing to have people imply you must be a racist just because you stand up for someone else's right to display something that doesn't have racist connotations.

I don't think anyone was implying that you, anyone else here, or anyone that defends the right to display that was a racist. I'm just not sure if there's a right side. Most who display it don't view it as racist, but at the same time lots of people do view it as a racist symbol regardless of what the displayed intends. Who is right? Is there even a right answer, or is it just cultural differences that'll never be settled?

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2012, 03:22:36 PM »
Well as far as this kid in the private school, he was in the wrong.  This is because its a private school and what they say goes.  So that's case closed there.  But I think it's wrong for people to look down upon flying a confederate flag.  People will always be offended by things.  We can't go around banning shit like this. 
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2012, 03:25:13 PM »
The funniest part of this conversation is that most southerners didn't own slaves during the war. The wealthiest Southerners obviously did and wanted to preserve the institution, but it's incorrect to associate the South with racism by default because of that. Legally sanctioned racism was very common in the North during the period in question, too.

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2012, 03:30:45 PM »
^^ Truth
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2012, 03:37:17 PM »
Sometimes, a picture speaks a thousand words. 

I'm not saying that the Confederate Flag should be viewed as a symbol of racism.  I'm saying thatit's only natural for it to be viewed as a symbol of racism, since it has been blatantly used as a symbol of racism in the past. 
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2012, 03:39:09 PM »
Sometimes, a picture speaks a thousand words. 

I'm not saying that the Confederate Flag should be viewed as a symbol of racism.  I'm saying thatit's only natural for it to be viewed as a symbol of racism, since it has been blatantly used as a symbol of racism in the past.

That's such a bullshit picture and you know it.  It has white power written all over it.  The flag itself is not racist, but when you make it racist it obviously is.  I mean holy manipulation there.  Sorry that was a shit example.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2012, 03:44:48 PM »
I'm not trying to say the flag itself is racist.  It isn't.  I'm saying people have definitely associated it with racism in very real ways. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag#Displaying_the_flag

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Some groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan.

https://www.indyposted.com/151948/new-mississippi-license-plate-would-honor-kkk-member/

When people make flags combining the Confederate Flag with the Ku Klux Klan symbol, and the KKK use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols from time to time, and a simple Google search yields plenty of results of KKK member toting the Confederate Flag, is it really surprising that people come to associate the flag with racism? 
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2012, 03:50:03 PM »
The flag is not racist.  Yes.  Also yes that people find it offensive.  But that's because of racist people using that flag.  Not the flag's history per se.  The only way to make this negative view of the flag leave however, is to keep using it in the correct way and ignore the people who use it for racist means.  Then it will start to lose its power as a negative symbol in people's eyes.

A symbol only has the power that people associate onto it.  It seems like people just love to perpetuate the negative on things and get offended instead of trying to be open minded and understand the true history and what is really going on with it.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2012, 04:06:41 PM »
I don't disagree with you.  Everything you said in that post is perfectly logical.  I would simply ask why it is so important to hang on to that specific symbol of southern heritage.  As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the southern states had more than one flag. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SC-SovFlag.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CSA_FLAG_28.11.1861-1.5.1863.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonnieblue.svg

All of these are listed as flags of Confederate States of America.  If you want to have a symbol of southern heritage, and you want it separate from racism, why not choose a symbol of southern heritage that has not been associated with racism?  If people didn't stubbornly cling to that one flag as their symbol of heritage, the whole issue could probably be avoided. 
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »
Well that would be up to the southerners to decide.  It's just hard to change a symbol to another.  That's like saying change the American flag.  Or trying to change the national anthem or pledge of allegiance.  It's tradition and stuck with us.  That's why people are fighting hard to keep their symbol.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2012, 04:17:24 PM »
The flag is not racist.  Yes.  Also yes that people find it offensive.  But that's because of racist people using that flag.  Not the flag's history per se.  The only way to make this negative view of the flag leave however, is to keep using it in the correct way and ignore the people who use it for racist means.  Then it will start to lose its power as a negative symbol in people's eyes.

A symbol only has the power that people associate onto it.  It seems like people just love to perpetuate the negative on things and get offended instead of trying to be open minded and understand the true history and what is really going on with it.

So you'd be fine with people wearing swastikas in public?
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2012, 04:21:18 PM »
It's just hard to change a symbol to another.

That's how I see it, too.  The thing is, when you boil it down like that, what this debate really comes down to is, people clinging to tradition vs. people trying to avoid offending people.  And in my personal opinion, trying to avoid offending people is a nobler cause.  That's entirely subjective, granted. 

But still, I ask you: is the value of upholding tradition worth the risk of offending people's sensibilities?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 04:31:44 PM by Jaffa »
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2012, 04:25:08 PM »
I mean, define the word fine?  I don't approve of people being racist.  However, people have the right to wear the symbol in a public place. 

It also depends on who is wearing it and for what reason.  Say, a Hindu or Buddhist person has the symbol on a necklace or something.  I wouldn't be offended by it.  Well I wouldn't get offended by it even if it was being used offensively but thats another point.

I would think its really bad for someone to wear the Nazi swastika, but I wouldn't get all outraged over it.  I would probably just say to myself, man that guy is a fucking dick, and be on my merry way. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2012, 04:26:15 PM »
All of these are listed as flags of Confederate States of America.  If you want to have a symbol of southern heritage, and you want it separate from racism, why not choose a symbol of southern heritage that has not been associated with racism?  If people didn't stubbornly cling to that one flag as their symbol of heritage, the whole issue could probably be avoided.
Because the same people who automatically assume that a symbol of the confederacy is a giant SLAVERY ROCKS! banner would be quick to assume that of any other symbol.  If people are content to misunderstand the underlying meaning,  and I think that's pretty clear reading through this thread,  then the symbol is irreverent.

And I'd have no problem with somebody wearing a swastika around in public.  If nothing else,  it'd let me know what type of person they are. 

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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2012, 04:29:21 PM »
Also there is a big difference between the Nazi swastika, and the other version of it. 

I don't really care about offending people.  Our whole country is really too fucking bent out of shape over being offensive.  Fucking A. 
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2012, 04:29:31 PM »
No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.

Why's that something to be proud of?  I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.

The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2012, 04:30:31 PM »
No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.

Why's that something to be proud of?  I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.

The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.

Lol here we are as northerners trying to defend southern people and their way of life and not trying to generalize, then you come in and say something stupid like that.
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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2012, 04:34:12 PM »
I've lived in NJ all my life

WELL THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM

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« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 04:46:27 PM by Sigz »
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2012, 04:34:53 PM »
I'm really surprised to find that Southerners think their food is great.  I think it's pretty damn terrible.
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2012, 04:37:09 PM »
I've lived in NJ all my life

As have I.  I don't share his sentiments.  My post was reiterating that generalizations are stupid.  That's one of the whole points of this debate.  Although the winters do suck.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2012, 04:48:49 PM »
Because the same people who automatically assume that a symbol of the confederacy is a giant SLAVERY ROCKS! banner would be quick to assume that of any other symbol.

Ok, granted.  The people who associate 'The Confederacy' with racism... there's not really anything to be done about that.  But that's not what I'm talking about.  That's people who have a problem with the actual underlying meaning of the symbol, and for them you're right: any symbol of the Confederacy is going to be a problem.  But there are also people who have a problem with this specific symbol, because it has associations not only with the Confederacy, not only with just slavery, but with racism in general.  And for those people, the symbol is very much so relevant. 

I don't really care about offending people.  Our whole country is really too fucking bent out of shape over being offensive.  Fucking A. 

Fair enough, but that's not really an argument.  I could say the same thing about tradition.  I don't really care about tradition. 

The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.

 :facepalm:
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2012, 04:53:49 PM »
The confederate flag doesn't stand for racism any more than the ole Stars and Stripes though.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2012, 05:37:49 PM »
No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.

Why's that something to be proud of?  I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.

The north blows, especially the north east. The winters are awful, the people are two-faced, and everyone is in a rush. They also can't drive for shit. Down south people are more laid back, the food is better, and you can still find a place where you don't always have to lock your door and worry about getting robbed. I've lived in NJ all my life and I hope the north burns when I leave.

Yeah...I spoke with everyone down here in the south, and we dont want you here.  Thx.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2012, 06:01:06 PM »
Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery. Granted, slavery was a large part of it. The Confederate Flag has everything to do with State's rights and very little (if at all, but there are always THOSE guys who ruin it for the majority) with slavery.

Again, I can always refer people to books if asked. I can't be bothered to source 40-45 great reads on the topic, including many contemporary sources (just for you, rumborak). But, if I have to, please ask.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2012, 07:01:24 PM »
Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery. Granted, slavery was a large part of it. The Confederate Flag has everything to do with State's rights and very little (if at all, but there are always THOSE guys who ruin it for the majority) with slavery.

Again, I can always refer people to books if asked. I can't be bothered to source 40-45 great reads on the topic, including many contemporary sources (just for you, rumborak). But, if I have to, please ask.

That's a bit of an understatement.  The Civil War had everything to do with preserving the institution of slavery.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2012, 07:24:44 PM »
Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery. Granted, slavery was a large part of it. The Confederate Flag has everything to do with State's rights and very little (if at all, but there are always THOSE guys who ruin it for the majority) with slavery.

Again, I can always refer people to books if asked. I can't be bothered to source 40-45 great reads on the topic, including many contemporary sources (just for you, rumborak). But, if I have to, please ask.

That's a bit of an understatement.  The Civil War had everything to do with preserving the institution of slavery.

I meant the usage of the Confederate Flag today. Re-read and noticed the error. For the South, slavery was about State's rights. If/When slavery was disbanded, the South's economic structure would be completely destroyed. And it sure as shit did happen.

Offline Implode

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2012, 08:38:45 PM »
Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery.

South Carolina was the first state to succeed because Lincoln was elected. They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests.

Offline snapple

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2012, 08:42:16 PM »
Uh, the Civil War started because of States leaving the Union, not slavery.

South Carolina was the first state to succeed because Lincoln was elected. They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests.

All it takes a little bit of research.

Offline Implode

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2012, 08:43:29 PM »
 :huh:

Are you agreeing with me?

The war was caused by succession. Succession was caused by Lincoln being elected and the restrictions of slavery in the western states. I know that was taking away rights from the states being able to choose for themselves, but it was more the slavery than the principle only because the south's economy greatly depended on the agriculture.

Offline snapple

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2012, 08:51:59 PM »
:huh:

Are you agreeing with me?

The war was caused by succession. Succession was caused by Lincoln being elected and the restrictions of slavery in the western states. I know that was taking away rights from the states being able to choose for themselves, but it was more the slavery than the principle only because the south's economy greatly depended on the agriculture.

I'm agreeing with what's said in here, but not the fact that slavery was the main issue. The economy of the South was the bigger picture, not slavery.

Offline Implode

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Re: Heritage Not Hate
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2012, 09:01:22 PM »
That's true. Like I said the economy depended on slavery. Had it depended on something else, I'm not sure how much a problem it would've been.