Heritage Not Hate

[Implode]

I was reminded of this when a friend showed me what was going on in her school.

https://www.kstp.com/article/12303/?vid=3221065&v=1

Some kid got suspended for refusing to cover a tattoo of the Confederate flag on his arm. He argues that it violates his right to free speech. He attends a private school, so obviously that argument doesn't hold up. She's informed me that other students are now putting Confederate flags on their cars in protest, all arguing that it's about the history of the south and has nothing to do with racism.

Personally I think it as the same as flying a Nazi flag and claiming that you're celebrating the history of Germany, but what do you guys think about the whole "heritage not hate" saying?

[lordxizor]

I agree that it's a blatant symbol of racism. Heck the history of the south that they're referring to is based on a system of slavery. That said, they should have every right to display a confederate flag if they're dumb enough to want to do that.

[bosk1]

Personally I think it as the same as flying a Nazi flag and claiming that you're celebrating the history of Germany, but what do you guys think about the whole "heritage not hate" saying?

Except for the fact that it's not.  There is a lot more to being proud of southern heritage that has nothing whatsoever to do with racism. 

[yorost]

Is it this flag?



I find it odd when people fly that flag and claim heritage.  If you're really after heritage why fly a military flag and not one of the Confederacy's national flags?  Displaying this just makes me think you don't know your heritage.  Outside military use, this pattern was never more than the equivalent to the 'stars field' on the US flag.

[lordxizor]

There is a lot more to being proud of southern heritage that has nothing whatsoever to do with racism. 

I agree... so use a symbol for that heritage that wasn't used as a symbol for "F-you north... we want to keep our slaves." It may have been a symbol for the south before the civil war, but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.

[bosk1]

...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.

I don't think this is true at all.

[Implode]

...but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.

I don't think this is true at all.

Most people I talk to would associate it with slave culture.

It's kind of interesting. I think most people that are okay with it are from the south, and most that associate it with slave culture are from the north.

What about my comparison? What's the difference between that and the Nazi flag? Say someone wanted to fly it because they were just truly fascinated with the history behind it rather than the racism. Is that okay? Bad?

[lordxizor]

It's kind of interesting. I think most people that are okay with it are from the south, and most that associate it with slave culture are from the north.

Part of it is that in the north we don't really learn about how the symbol was used in the south prior to the civil war. Other than the vague knowledge that it was, I can't say how or why. 99% of the time we see that symbol in a picture, it has to do with the civil war. While racism is still a problem all over the US, it is worse in the south in my experience, so it doesn't surprise me that they would be more tolerant of a symbol that brings racism to mind.

[El Barto]

Proctor: All right, here's your last question.  What was the cause of
         the Civil War? 
    Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes.  Aside from the obvious
         schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists,
         there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--
Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.
    Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

I agree... so use a symbol for that heritage that wasn't used as a symbol for "F-you north... we want to keep our slaves." It may have been a symbol for the south before the civil war, but the vast majority of people in the US would instantly associate it with a slave culture.

I think a symbol of "Fuck You North" is a perfectly valid sentiment to express.  There are a gazillion differences between the two cultures,  and the prior history of slavery isn't the entire point.

That said,  most people who get up in arms about their right to display the battle flag are doing it entirely to ruffle people's feathers.  I agree with their right to do it,  and as y'all have probably noticed I'm somewhat fond of much of my Southern heritage,  but so are a lot of real assholes. 

[bosk1]

Must depend on where you are from.  I've lived in California my whole life except for my military stint, and I wouldn't associate it with slavery and don't know many who would.  During my military time, I spent a lot of time in North Carolina where I was based, and in South Carolina and Georgia with friends I had made (as well as in some northern states with friends I made who were from those states as well).  My experience was about the same.  Sure, there were some who would use it in a racist way.  But most, whether northern or southern, and whether black or white, didn't view it as a racist thing; they viewed it as a southern thing.  Either that, or I just missed the point.

[yorost]

Part of it is that in the north we don't really learn about how the symbol was used in the south prior to the civil war. Other than the vague knowledge that it was, I can't say how or why. 99% of the time we see that symbol in a picture, it has to do with the civil war. While racism is still a problem all over the US, it is worse in the south in my experience, so it doesn't surprise me that they would be more tolerant of a symbol that brings racism to mind.

What are you talking about?  The flag I posted a picture of?  That was a military designed flag for the Confederate's army.  It had some basis in older Southern military flags, but it was not a symbol of the South prior to the Civil War.

[Implode]

Must depend on where you are from.  I've lived in California my whole life except for my military stint, and I wouldn't associate it with slavery and don't know many who would.  During my military time, I spent a lot of time in North Carolina where I was based, and in South Carolina and Georgia with friends I had made (as well as in some northern states with friends I made who were from those states as well).  My experience was about the same.  Sure, there were some who would use it in a racist way.  But most, whether northern or southern, and whether black or white, didn't view it as a racist thing; they viewed it as a southern thing.  Either that, or I just missed the point.

I think you're right. I'd love to see statistics showing peoples' opinions matched with where in the country they live.

[lordxizor]

What are you talking about?  The flag I posted a picture of?  That was a military designed flag for the Confederate's army.  It had some basis in older Southern military flags, but it was not a symbol of the South prior to the Civil War.

I said it used as a symbol in the south, not of the south. You said yourself it was used in some older military flags. I knew it was used for something prior to the civil war, just wasn't aware of what. So thanks for the info.

Must depend on where you are from.

This is probably true. Having lived my entire life in either the upper Midwest or New England, I have definitely gotten the northern slant on the history of the civil war. Both of these place contributed heavily to the north's military efforts. Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.

[yorost]

@lordxizor: IIt was not used prior to the Civil War, though, anywhere.  When I said basis from older flags, I'm talking things like a lot of militias might have had St. Andrew's crosses in their flags, so they made the battle flag have a cross.  It was a completely new design, made specifically for the Confederate military during the Civil War.

[El Barto]

Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.

'Bout two miles down the road from my office is Robert E. Lee Park.     There's also an elementary school named for him pretty close to my home,  as well as quite a few other civil war figures.  Dallas's school for the deaf is Stonewall Jackson.

[Zook]

Is The Dukes Of Hazzard banned from TV?

[lordxizor]

@lordxizor: IIt was not used prior to the Civil War, though, anywhere.  When I said basis from older flags, I'm talking things like a lot of militias might have had St. Andrew's crosses in their flags, so they made the battle flag have a cross.  It was a completely new design, made specifically for the Confederate military during the Civil War.

OK. Guess that goes to show that I knew even less about it than I thought I did. If that's the case, I think it has less to do with southern heritage than I did before. Slavery, while not the only factor in the civil war, was one of the biggest and is the one the war is primarily remembered for. Though I'd imagine the other reasons are played up more in the south than in the north.

[Dr. DTVT]

Until I moved down to the South, I thought it was a symbol of racist rednecks and all the other negative stuff associated with it.  Southern culture is really different, and people down here are proud of their tradition and heritage.  They aren't racist, but they're proud of agricultural roots, southern cooking, and the fact that their ancestors fought bravely while largely being under-supplied and being out manned 2 to 1.  They see the flag as a uniting symbol.

It's sometimes hard to see that, especially when some places teach the Civil War as the "War of Northern Aggression" to this day.

[yorost]

Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.

'Bout two miles down the road from my office is Robert E. Lee Park.     There's also an elementary school named for him pretty close to my home,  as well as quite a few other civil war figures.  Dallas's school for the deaf is Stonewall Jackson.

Funny thing is, some of the Confederate generals are almost revered in the North, too, especially Lee.  Not that he gets many things named after him.

[El Barto]

Heck every town around me has a civil war memorial statue in the central square.

'Bout two miles down the road from my office is Robert E. Lee Park.     There's also an elementary school named for him pretty close to my home,  as well as quite a few other civil war figures.  Dallas's school for the deaf is Stonewall Jackson.

Funny thing is, some of the Confederate generals are almost revered in the North, too, especially Lee.  Not that he gets many things named after him.

Probably a combination of the facts that good generalship was a quality they were in short supply of,  and that plenty of the Southern generals had done some pretty nice work before the split. 

[yorost]

That and he is viewed as honorable, with a strong sense of duty.  In some sense, he is the face of the 'good' South of the time.  It isn't right to call him anti-slavery, but he was open to slavery ending.  I think this helped foster that image after his death.

[Sigz]

I don't remember a ton from my childhood in Florida (which I don't think really counts as 'the south' anyways), but I do have a vivid recollection of the redneck next door flying a confederate flag on his house. The only other memory I have of him is when he almost killed himself trying to burn his garbage (why he felt the need to burn it I have no idea). His wife had thrown a bunch of hair spray cans and shit in the garbage, which of course didn't take well to being incincerated. lulz ensued.

So yeah, my only real experience with those who fly the confederate flag didn't exactly throw a point in their favor

[Vivace]

The problem here is basically the symbol itself and that for the most part it's associated with the negative aspects of the Civil War era south and not the other aspects. The same with the Nazi symbol. It's also a sign that we still as a human race refuse to let go of the trauma of the past thus allowing it to affect our emotions and judgement. What I find interesting is I find comments for symbols always leaning towards the negative of the symbol and never the positive things. It is rare we seek out the good in another or another heritage, we insist on seeking out the bad and being judgemental. Yes, people will have their opinions, some are reasonable while others are irrational and hate-bent. When I see the Confederate Flag I think of the South, sure, but I try to think of the people of the South in that time, and try not to be judgmental to their habits and culture. It's so easy to fling hate at slavery or racism, but since when it is fair for such judgment to trascend each generation? When does the judgmental behavior end? How many generations have to suffer for a contemporary opinion about a history we have no control of fixing? If the kid wearing the Confederate Flag is doing it for good then there really nothing immoral about it.

[El Barto]

That and he is viewed as honorable, with a strong sense of duty.  In some sense, he is the face of the 'good' South of the time.  It isn't right to call him anti-slavery, but he was open to slavery ending.  I think this helped foster that image after his death.

Stonewall Jackson was the same way.  He actually did a great deal of good for the blacks in Lexington,  and seemed to support slavery only insofar as he didn't think himself worthy to question the law of the land. 

And this is why I think it's reasonable to allow people to honor the battle flag, if they see fit.  Unlike the popular, Northern contemporary view,  quite a bit of their leadership really wasn't into it for the preservation of slavery.  Lee and Jackson had their own reasons for supporting secession,  and slavery doesn't really seem to be a particularly strong one. 

[7StringedBeast]

When I have talked to Southerners about the flag, they always tell me its just s symbol of Southern heritage and tradition and is not, in most cases, used as a symbol of racism.  The problem is, if someone racist uses it, then it just gives everyone a bad image if they use it to.

[ReaPsTA]

Wanting to display a Confederate flag to celebrate southern heritage is the same as wanting to say "f-g" to someone you don't like without implying they're gay.

Obviously, there's the fact that neither of these acts of speech exists in a vacuum.  Whatever you meant in your head, it's going to provoke a reaction in other people that are hearing it.  A black person who sees a confederate flag is going to be thinking about a time when - purely because of his race - he wasn't treated like a real human.  A gay person is going to hear f-g and think of a time he was beaten up in high school not as a reaction to anything he did but simply because of who he was.  As a society, we've chosen to care about these things.

And why shouldn't you?  I'm not saying to blow things out of proportion.  Tracy Morgan's public crucifixion was painful and awful to watch.  Nobody should support that.  But, when these displays bring up so much darkness, why shouldn't that concern you?  Why shouldn't that concern society?

How much does this kid really care about history and heritage?  Probably not very much.  So why is he going through this much trouble to wear a confederate flag tattoo?  It's neither heritage or hatred.  It's rebellion. 

Most forms of teenage rebellion are rightfully considered stupid.  Why is this an exception?  Most forms of teenage rebellion are also very selfish, just like this one.

If I was the head of the school, I wouldn't let any student come to class whose car had a confederate flag tattoo on it.  And if I had to send someone home more than twice for this reason, the kid would be at risk for expulsion without a tuition refund, pending a meeting with the parents.

People wonder what's wrong with America.  This kind of immaturity and lack of regard for other human beings is the problem.  Trying to pretend it's about any sort of bigger issue gives it false legitimacy.

[7StringedBeast]

I see your sentiment, but I think you are way off.  I believe you don't live in the south or don't talk to born and raised southerners too often.  They really do fly the flag down there very often.  It's not as taboo as us in the north think of it.  It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery.  There is more to the south than slavery.

[Implode]

Wanting to display a Confederate flag to celebrate southern heritage is the same as wanting to say "f-g" to someone you don't like without implying they're gay.

Obviously, there's the fact that neither of these acts of speech exists in a vacuum.  Whatever you meant in your head, it's going to provoke a reaction in other people that are hearing it.

What others have said about cutltural difference is true as well. Apparently it's not a big in the south as well as using the word "fag" is not a big deal in certain circles.

But I also agree with you. We should just keep in mind how what we do or say can effect negative feelings in other people. I guess we just have to be aware of when things are appropriate. (Though I really really hate the word fag)

[GuineaPig]

I see your sentiment, but I think you are way off.  I believe you don't live in the south or don't talk to born and raised southerners too often.  They really do fly the flag down there very often.  It's not as taboo as us in the north think of it.  It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery.  There is more to the south than slavery.

The culture of the Civil War and Reconstruction-era south was racist.  The confederate flag represents a racist culture, and one that was proud of its racism.  There's no way to get around that.

[ReaPsTA]

I see your sentiment, but I think you are way off.  I believe you don't live in the south or don't talk to born and raised southerners too often.  They really do fly the flag down there very often.  It's not as taboo as us in the north think of it.  It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery.  There is more to the south than slavery.

To be fair, you're 100% right about the fact I don't live in the South.

But, when it comes to this story, I'm not sure it takes place in the South.  The TV station broadcasting it is based in Minnesota.

Also, I hate to say this, but isn't Southern Culture using the confederate flag as a symbol a pretty valid reason for why so many people hate it?

This isn't some northern white superiority complex thing either.  I live in one of the most conservative areas in the country, and there's something about the kind of people who live here I really enjoy.  And they don't need a confederate flag to be this way.

[PraXis]

No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.

[Ħ]

It's expression through a symbol.  It's free speech.  A private school has the right to restrict free speech, and if it was in the school dress code rules, then the kid was in the wrong.

But regarding whether or not it is right or wrong to be proud of 'your' history, I don't see how it could be either.  I think it's kind of silly to hold to tradition, and count yourself as a part of a group just because you have a certain ancestry. "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."  But if you really want to, then no one should really stop you if you're not infringing on the rights of others.

[lordxizor]

It is a symbol of southern culture and heritage to them, not a symbol of slavery.

I find it interesting that they chose a symbol for southern heritage that was the symbol for a war that was primarily a war to save the practice of slavery. It just seems odd to me. It's a bit like Germans choosing to use the Nazi flag to celebrate German heritage (though not nearly as blatantly offensive). I suppose there really isn't any other symbol that unites the entire south, so that's probably why they cling to it despite it's racist undertones.

[ReaPsTA]

No it doesn't. The Confederate flag represents southern pride in how the culture of the south differs than in the north. The race card is being thrown at everything nowadays.

Why's that something to be proud of?  I'm not proud I'm part of a culture that's different from Southern culture.

[bosk1]

Wanting to display a Confederate flag to celebrate southern heritage is the same as wanting to say "f-g" to someone you don't like without implying they're gay.

Obviously, there's the fact that neither of these acts of speech exists in a vacuum.  Whatever you meant in your head, it's going to provoke a reaction in other people that are hearing it.

What others have said about cutltural difference is true as well. Apparently it's not a big in the south as well as using the word "fag" is not a big deal in certain circles.

But I also agree with you. We should just keep in mind how what we do or say can effect negative feelings in other people. I guess we just have to be aware of when things are appropriate. (Though I really really hate the word fag)

In addition to that, I just think Reap is way off base with that analogy.  Using the word "fag" is not a symbol of one's heritage in any way, shape, or form.  It's a slur against a particular group, plain and simple.