Author Topic: Jesus never existed?  (Read 39305 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #350 on: February 25, 2012, 08:56:37 PM »
Matthew's account was written in 41 C.E.

Pray tell, which of your sources give that exact date? Most scholars place Matthew at 80-90AD.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #351 on: February 25, 2012, 08:58:46 PM »
You're inferring a whole lot. I don't see how that can be considered reasonable. Modern scholars mostly agree that the genealogy of Jesus was crafted by the writers.

rumborak


Funny that his enemies never saw fit to bring that up.   EVERYTHING was all about genealogy back then.   If the Jews wanted to stop Christianity...they had access to Jesus genealogy all the way up until 70 C.E.   

If Jesus didn't have the bloodline to be the Christ...don't you think it might have been wise for that to have been made public?   Maybe even from the moment he started to make a nuisance of himself?   

Seems to me like they had 40 years to pull that Ace out of the deck if they had it....and *extremely* odd that they never did.

I'm curious, how did everyone keep track of thousands of years of  genealogy? Why would the Pharisees even have access to things like of what they considered to be some random trouble maker? Keep in mind he wasn't exactly a big deal at the time.

He wasn't anything at all to the Romans.   That's why Pilate would rather just let the Jews do as they will with this guy rather than jeopardize his political career.   (there's a veiled threat in the account that if he didn't execute Jesus...they would report Pilate to Caesar...something Pilate didn't want...but that's another discussion.)

To the Jews...the Messiah was *EVERYTHING*...their whole lives revolved around the appearance of the Messiah.  The first 10 chapters of Chronicles are NOTHING but genealogy.   They knew that when Messiah came to save the nation...he would have to be through the bloodline that God had spoken of.  That was why they kept * meticulous* records...and yes, the Jewish religious leaders had access to these records.  It would have been no trouble at all to discredit Jesus openly and quickly if they could.  But they couldn't.   
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #352 on: February 25, 2012, 08:59:47 PM »
They wouldn't have had to.  The "Christ" that the Christians were claiming didn't bear very much resemblance to the Messiah the Jews were awaiting.  It would've been a circular argument. 

You make it sound here as if Jesus were no big deal.   A gnat in the ointment.   If he was so insignificant, why kill him?   Again...your line of reasoning makes no sense.   Even if the Jewish leaders didn't like him and just wished he would go away...the easiest way to get people to quit following him would be to make his genealogy public...and that would have been the end of it.   Especially since they were the keepers of the records and hated him so much.   Sorry...this just doesn't fit the facts of record...or even human nature for that matter.
He was killed by the Romans.  Just the same as thousands of other Jews during the first century CE in Palestine.  He wasn't all that big a deal until his followers began experiencing him after his death.  Even then, they stayed faithful Jews.  Your genealogy argument doesn't hold any water at all.

Besides, what the Jews or Christians may or may not have said to each other would have been moot by the time the gospels were written, when any such records would have been destroyed during the Jewish War.  Which is another reason that most scholars think that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke aren't historical.  They are, rather, confessional and very pointed in the assemblage.

Matthew's account was written in 41 C.E.  Luke's was sometime between 56-58 C.E. when Paul was confined in Caesarea.
There is simply no evidence for that whatsoever.  Both gospels are normally dated to sometime between 80-100 CE.
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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #353 on: February 25, 2012, 09:03:05 PM »
You're inferring a whole lot. I don't see how that can be considered reasonable. Modern scholars mostly agree that the genealogy of Jesus was crafted by the writers.

rumborak


Funny that his enemies never saw fit to bring that up.   EVERYTHING was all about genealogy back then.   If the Jews wanted to stop Christianity...they had access to Jesus genealogy all the way up until 70 C.E.   

If Jesus didn't have the bloodline to be the Christ...don't you think it might have been wise for that to have been made public?   Maybe even from the moment he started to make a nuisance of himself?   

Seems to me like they had 40 years to pull that Ace out of the deck if they had it....and *extremely* odd that they never did.

I'm curious, how did everyone keep track of thousands of years of  genealogy? Why would the Pharisees even have access to things like of what they considered to be some random trouble maker? Keep in mind he wasn't exactly a big deal at the time.

He wasn't anything at all to the Romans.   That's why Pilate would rather just let the Jews do as they will with this guy rather than jeopardize his political career.   (there's a veiled threat in the account that if he didn't execute Jesus...they would report Pilate to Caesar...something Pilate didn't want...but that's another discussion.)

To the Jews...the Messiah was *EVERYTHING*...their whole lives revolved around the appearance of the Messiah.  The first 10 chapters of Chronicles are NOTHING but genealogy.   They knew that when Messiah came to save the nation...he would have to be through the bloodline that God had spoken of.  That was why they kept * meticulous* records...and yes, the Jewish religious leaders had access to these records.  It would have been no trouble at all to discredit Jesus openly and quickly if they could.  But they couldn't.

I didn't say the messiah wasn't a big deal, I'm jewish you know, I know what we are like. I said Jesus wasn't a big deal. He wasn't the only person claiming to be the messiah and he didn't have a crap load of followers in his life time. He merely wasn't very important. Why kill him? Because they killed tons of people for tons of things back then, it was a horrible time for people.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #354 on: February 25, 2012, 09:07:12 PM »
Matthew's account was written in 41 C.E.

Pray tell, which of your sources give that exact date? Most scholars place Matthew at 80-90AD.

rumborak

Which is pure conjecture, because they believe it was copied from Mark.   A theory that has absolutely not a shred of credible evidence to support it.    Other than, "I have a degree, and these passages look the same." 

Older manuscripts have a subscription that it was written approximately 8 years after Jesus ascension...internal evidence harmonizes with the claim...and there is not credible evidence to the contrary. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #355 on: February 25, 2012, 09:13:46 PM »
Matthew's account was written in 41 C.E.

Pray tell, which of your sources give that exact date? Most scholars place Matthew at 80-90AD.

rumborak

Which is pure conjecture, because they believe it was copied from Mark.   A theory that has absolutely not a shred of credible evidence to support it.    Other than, "I have a degree, and these passages look the same." 
It's not that they believe it was copied from Mark, but that both Matthew and Luke used Mark as their main source.  And if you think there is "absolutely not a shred of credible evidence to support it"...I'm sorry, but you haven't read the evidence.  It isn't like this is some idea that some scholars whipped up one day as a conspiracy.  There are reasons that so many critical scholars believe this to be the case.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #356 on: February 26, 2012, 11:42:18 AM »
You're inferring a whole lot. I don't see how that can be considered reasonable. Modern scholars mostly agree that the genealogy of Jesus was crafted by the writers.

rumborak


Funny that his enemies never saw fit to bring that up.   EVERYTHING was all about genealogy back then.   If the Jews wanted to stop Christianity...they had access to Jesus genealogy all the way up until 70 C.E.   

If Jesus didn't have the bloodline to be the Christ...don't you think it might have been wise for that to have been made public?   Maybe even from the moment he started to make a nuisance of himself?   

Seems to me like they had 40 years to pull that Ace out of the deck if they had it....and *extremely* odd that they never did.

I'm curious, how did everyone keep track of thousands of years of  genealogy? Why would the Pharisees even have access to things like of what they considered to be some random trouble maker? Keep in mind he wasn't exactly a big deal at the time.

He wasn't anything at all to the Romans.   That's why Pilate would rather just let the Jews do as they will with this guy rather than jeopardize his political career.   (there's a veiled threat in the account that if he didn't execute Jesus...they would report Pilate to Caesar...something Pilate didn't want...but that's another discussion.)

To the Jews...the Messiah was *EVERYTHING*...their whole lives revolved around the appearance of the Messiah.  The first 10 chapters of Chronicles are NOTHING but genealogy.   They knew that when Messiah came to save the nation...he would have to be through the bloodline that God had spoken of.  That was why they kept * meticulous* records...and yes, the Jewish religious leaders had access to these records.  It would have been no trouble at all to discredit Jesus openly and quickly if they could.  But they couldn't.

I didn't say the messiah wasn't a big deal, I'm jewish you know, I know what we are like. I said Jesus wasn't a big deal. He wasn't the only person claiming to be the messiah and he didn't have a crap load of followers in his life time. He merely wasn't very important. Why kill him? Because they killed tons of people for tons of things back then, it was a horrible time for people.

The Roman judicial system was actually a relatively fair system.   And the Jewish high court didn't have the authority to execute criminals (once they came under Roman rule)...that is why they had to bring Jesus to Pilate in order to get the execution they wanted.   

If if the Jewish leaders would have done it themselves (a point of contention as to whether or not they had the authority to do so under Roman rule) they would have stoned him.   But they *wanted* this particular kind of death...because of the Jewish custom that every man who was hung up on a tree was cursed.  (Deut 21:23)  They wanted him to be a cursed man...they figured that no Jew would *ever* accept a man who had hung on a tree as their Messiah.   They didn't realize that this also played into fulfillment of prophecy. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #357 on: February 26, 2012, 12:21:45 PM »
The Roman justice system was just to their own citizens. For non-citizens it was hell.
Dude seriously, Jesus was not a big deal during his lifetime, and he was plain executed because nobody gave a rat's ass, I.e. neither the Romans nor the Jews. If he had been anything worth noticing the Romans would have mentioned him in their records. They didn't.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #358 on: February 26, 2012, 12:35:09 PM »
The Roman justice system was just to their own citizens. For non-citizens it was hell.
Dude seriously, Jesus was not a big deal during his lifetime, and he was plain executed because nobody gave a rat's ass, I.e. neither the Romans nor the Jews. If he had been anything worth noticing the Romans would have mentioned him in their records. They didn't.

rumborak

I would not have *ever* expected him to turn up in Roman records.   To me, it fits the pattern that he *didn't* get mentioned in Roman records.   Why would they care?   The entire Jewish nation was becoming a nuisance at that time...and the local high court is jealous of a lowly Jewish carpenter?   I honestly believe that Pilate tried to free Jesus because he thought the idea of executing this man for nothing was nothing short of ludicrous.    When he realized this was essentially an internal dispute that boiled down to nothing more than jealousy...he washed his hands of the whole thing.   He was the only Roman of importance that ever had anything to do with it...and he didn't want to have anything to do with it.   

I would question any Roman documentation if it ever turned up...because it wouldn't fit the pattern.   Why would any Roman give a gnat's butt about any of this???
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #359 on: February 26, 2012, 12:40:48 PM »
Your theories get wilder and wilder with every page of this thread. The Romans recorded the most inane shit, it was their obsession. Not being mentioned at all anywhere puts an upper limit on the impact Jesus had.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #360 on: February 26, 2012, 12:44:04 PM »
Also...I don't see why he would have ever turned up in Jewish records either...although maybe to a smaller extent. 

I mean, to confess Jesus as the Christ meant getting cast out of the synagogue, and sometimes possibly getting stoned and left for dead (as happened to Paul). 

It was only the brave that dared testify to what they believed.     The Jewish high court ordered that no one *even talk about him*...and they held more influence over the Jewish population than anyone else.   
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #361 on: February 26, 2012, 12:50:51 PM »
So now were getting Conspiratorial. Awesome.

So, Jesus was important enough to be killed, but not important enough to make contemporary written accounts?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #362 on: February 26, 2012, 01:02:50 PM »
Don't be dense.  There ARE contemporaneous written accounts--just not Roman accounts.  Which, as pointed out in this thread and in previous ones, is consistent with the fact that virtually nothing in Judea during this period is recorded in Roman records.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #363 on: February 26, 2012, 01:11:49 PM »
Jeeez, bosk. I take it your "contemporary accounts" are contemporary because you reject the mainstream dating of the documents? Paul's epistles are the earliest existing documents, and they were written decades after Jesus' death.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #364 on: February 26, 2012, 01:25:07 PM »
Plus...and this is for everyone.   I urge you to look at the pattern.   As I've grown older, I've seen the way human nature and life turns out.   I've been around the block.

The Bible holds up under its own claims.  Throughout the entire account, God's servants are ALWAYS in the extreme minority.   8 souls were saved out of possibly hundreds of thousands who, as Jesus put it, "TOOK NO NOTE" (the all caps are mine).    The pattern has ALWAYS been that those who are wise in God's eyes, will be honored by God...but treated as ridiculous by everyone else.    Even Jesus, the Bible describes as the "The stone that *the builders rejected" and has become the "chief cornerstone".  Again...rejected as meaningless by everyone, except God, and those who believed him. 

The Flood
Sodom and Gomorrah
The Exodus
Gideon

I could come up with a laundry list of examples of people who were treated as nothing by everyone else in the world...but not God.    Jesus said that the last days would be exactly like Noah and the Flood.   Noah was called a "preacher"...so he didn't keep the coming flood a secret.  EVERYONE was invited...the warning was given...but no one came.   Noah and his family were the only ones that obeyed.   Lot's sons and wife were told that the destruction was coming, but the sons just treated Lot like "a man who was joking" and his wife desired the things she left behind.   

Everytime God has taken action in the past....every single time...it has been in a situation where the overwhelming majority treated the obedient as....a bunch of insignificant nobodies. 

He intentionally rejects those who are "wise in their own eyes" and consistently chooses those who are honest, humble and usually feel completely inadequate and unqualified.

I submit that not *every* minority is right...but the majority is *usually* wrong.    So now it's a matter of finding out what fits the pattern.   If don't believe God exists...fine.  I don't judge you, nor should anyone else.   Maybe something will change your mind someday...maybe not.   If you DO believe that God exists...you need to look for the pattern.  What fits the pattern of God's activity?   Taking into account that there is false worship out there?   Who fit the pattern of the Pharisees?  The Scribes?   Who mirror their attitudes and actions?   Same for Jesus and the apostles....who imitate their spirit?  Who follow their *pattern*??    Everyone must make their own *educated* decision.   

Whatever anyone...on any side of any part of this issue...decides, please don't follow anything blindly.   Make an educated decision.   
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #365 on: February 26, 2012, 01:40:00 PM »
Jammin, I think you need to come down a bit from your high horse there. You may be yourself convinced that you've done a superb job at looking the evidence available, but to many of us here it looks you chose the literalist path, and from there it all fell into place by picking the evidence as needed while dismissing the rest. Putting Matthew at 41AD displays an extraordinary bias on your side that has nothing to do with careful examination of evidence.

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« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 01:50:51 PM by rumborak »
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #366 on: February 26, 2012, 02:22:21 PM »
If I ever sounded like I was on any "high horse"...I apologize.   That is the farthest thing from my mind.   

I will stand firm that if you claim there is no evidence whatsover for what I have claimed...it is a "guilty until proven innocent" approach.  I feel the evidence supporting the 41 C.E. date is stronger than the evidence against it. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #367 on: February 26, 2012, 02:27:46 PM »
If if the Jewish leaders would have done it themselves (a point of contention as to whether or not they had the authority to do so under Roman rule) they would have stoned him.   But they *wanted* this particular kind of death...because of the Jewish custom that every man who was hung up on a tree was cursed.  (Deut 21:23)  They wanted him to be a cursed man...they figured that no Jew would *ever* accept a man who had hung on a tree as their Messiah.   They didn't realize that this also played into fulfillment of prophecy.
That is a fundamental misreading of the text from Deuteronomy.  Here is the entire passage: "21:22 If a person commits a sin punishable by death and is executed, and you hang the corpse on a tree, 21:23 his body must not remain all night on the tree; instead you must make certain you bury him that same day, for the one who is left exposed on a tree is cursed by God. You must not defile your land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance."

He wouldn't have been cursed by the hanging itself; the curse would have been as a result of not being buried the same day.  And the point against this was that the land not be defiled by burying something that was cursed.  But according to the Gospels, Jesus was buried the same day so this is irrelevant.  Doubly irrelevant, since the passage from Deuteronomy has nothing to do with crucifixion, which is death by hanging on a cross, but with hanging up the body of someone who is already dead.  Furthermore, there is no evidence from the Gospels that such a thing was even thought of by the Jews, so this whole proposition is strange at best.


I honestly believe that Pilate tried to free Jesus because he thought the idea of executing this man for nothing was nothing short of ludicrous.    When he realized this was essentially an internal dispute that boiled down to nothing more than jealousy...he washed his hands of the whole thing.   He was the only Roman of importance that ever had anything to do with it...and he didn't want to have anything to do with it.   
This assumes that the Gospel accounts of Jesus's trial are accurate.  Which I seriously doubt.

Pilate is known to history as a horribly cruel and unjust man.  The portrayal of him in the Gospels is as a wishy-washy person who was afraid.  I can't speculate as to what really happened, but I know that all of the Gospels mentioned that all of Jesus's followers had deserted him, so none of them witnessed any such trial (as if they could have if they had wanted to). 

The Gospels portray "the Jews" as feeling that Jesus committed blasphemy.  If this was true, they would have been well within their rights to execute him by stoning, and Pilate wouldn't have cared.  But that isn't what happened.  He was crucified, which was a Roman punishment for all kinds of things.  The most likely thing is that he was crucified because he was a public nuisance, including the "scourging of the Temple", during Passover Week.  That would have been reason enough, there is no reason for a Sanhedrin conspiracy.
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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #368 on: February 26, 2012, 03:02:35 PM »
I don't know where Luke took most of his eyewitness sources from.  I know he used Mark/Peter.  Does anyone know where he took the rest?

Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #369 on: February 26, 2012, 05:18:39 PM »
This assumes that the Gospel accounts of Jesus's trial are accurate.  Which I seriously doubt.

One thing that always left me scratching my head is John 18:33-38. Who recorded this private conversation between Pilate and Jesus?

Was Jesus wired?

rumborak
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #370 on: February 26, 2012, 05:53:32 PM »
I don't know where Luke took most of his eyewitness sources from.  I know he used Mark/Peter.  Does anyone know where he took the rest?
No one can know specifically, although the evidence that he used Mark is pretty strong.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #371 on: February 26, 2012, 07:20:01 PM »
So now were getting Conspiratorial. Awesome.

So, Jesus was important enough to be killed, but not important enough to make contemporary written accounts?
Yes, because the people who killed him and  the historians who were "supposed" to write about him didn't have the same interests. And bosk is correct. 

Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #372 on: February 26, 2012, 08:02:20 PM »
This assumes that the Gospel accounts of Jesus's trial are accurate.  Which I seriously doubt.

One thing that always left me scratching my head is John 18:33-38. Who recorded this private conversation between Pilate and Jesus?

Was Jesus wired?

rumborak


This is an answer that requires belief in God and the fact that he sent his son and resurrected him.   *IF* you believe that (I, and several others believe that this did, in fact, take place) then the very easy answer is that it's Jesus own testimony...given to his disciples after he was resurrected.   Again...this fits the pattern.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #373 on: February 26, 2012, 08:11:46 PM »
This assumes that the Gospel accounts of Jesus's trial are accurate.  Which I seriously doubt.

One thing that always left me scratching my head is John 18:33-38. Who recorded this private conversation between Pilate and Jesus?

Was Jesus wired?

rumborak


This is an answer that requires belief in God and the fact that he sent his son and resurrected him.   *IF* you believe that (I, and several others believe that this did, in fact, take place) then the very easy answer is that it's Jesus own testimony...given to his disciples after he was resurrected.   Again...this fits the pattern.
The text doesn't say that it is Jesus's own testimony given to his disciples after he was resurrected.  You are making an assumption.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #374 on: February 26, 2012, 08:56:02 PM »
This assumes that the Gospel accounts of Jesus's trial are accurate.  Which I seriously doubt.

One thing that always left me scratching my head is John 18:33-38. Who recorded this private conversation between Pilate and Jesus?

Was Jesus wired?

rumborak


This is an answer that requires belief in God and the fact that he sent his son and resurrected him.   *IF* you believe that (I, and several others believe that this did, in fact, take place) then the very easy answer is that it's Jesus own testimony...given to his disciples after he was resurrected.   Again...this fits the pattern.
The text doesn't say that it is Jesus's own testimony given to his disciples after he was resurrected.  You are making an assumption.

Oh good grief.   He hung out with them on and off for 40 days....  What do YOU think they talked about?   How about this...  "There are, in fact, many other things also which Jesus did, which, if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose, the world itself could not contain the scrolls written."  (John 21:25) 

There...that outta cover it.   :angel:   ::)
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Online Adami

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #375 on: February 26, 2012, 09:10:32 PM »
You're still making an assumption. One of course that you feel is fully logical, but an assumption none the less.


Which is not letting the text speak for itself.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #376 on: February 26, 2012, 09:28:21 PM »
You're still making an assumption. One of course that you feel is fully logical, but an assumption none the less.


Which is not letting the text speak for itself.


Using your level of absolutes....I can argue that reality isn't real....  Using that level of absolutes...you can disprove or prove *anything at all*...   At some point, one has to be reasonable.

I have presented arguments that water isn't really wet using the methods that you are using right now.   Of course...water not being wet is ridiculous...when a person enters these debates, they usually expect *some* level of reasonableness from the opposing side.    When that stops, it stops being fun.    This is supposed to be fun debate for the enrichment of everyone involved.     

I've given reasons...I've even supplied a source text (and there are more) to support my view.   My source of conclusion is the text itself.    If you're not going to be reasonable, and bring something to the debate...please move along. 
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Online Adami

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #377 on: February 26, 2012, 09:30:57 PM »
You're still making an assumption. One of course that you feel is fully logical, but an assumption none the less.


Which is not letting the text speak for itself.


Using your level of absolutes....I can argue that reality isn't real....  Using that level of absolutes...you can disprove or prove *anything at all*...   At some point, one has to be reasonable.

I have presented arguments that water isn't really wet using the methods that you are using right now.   Of course...water not being wet is ridiculous...when a person enters these debates, they usually expect *some* level of reasonableness from the opposing side.    When that stops, it stops being fun.    This is supposed to be fun debate for the enrichment of everyone involved.     

I've given reasons...I've even supplied a source text (and there are more) to support my view.   My source of conclusion is the text itself.    If you're not going to be reasonable, and bring something to the debate...please move along.


What? All I did was mention that you are making assumptions. I attached no judgement to that what so ever.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #378 on: February 26, 2012, 10:20:08 PM »
Surely the conversation with pilate isn't the only narrative or facts that they were not privy to.  In john 14-16 Jesus told 12 that he would leave them his spirit who would guide them into all truth.  This is the core of inspiration and is explanation for situation like pilates convo

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #379 on: February 27, 2012, 04:19:47 AM »
Surely the conversation with pilate isn't the only narrative or facts that they were not privy to.  In john 14-16 Jesus told 12 that he would leave them his spirit who would guide them into all truth.  This is the core of inspiration and is explanation for situation like pilates convo
That is still an assumption.  That text doesn't say anything about telling people what happened in certain situations. 

I mean, go ahead and believe it if you want to.  But that is an interpretation and an inferrance on your part, not something the text actually says.
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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #380 on: February 27, 2012, 05:53:26 AM »
Surely the conversation with pilate isn't the only narrative or facts that they were not privy to.  In john 14-16 Jesus told 12 that he would leave them his spirit who would guide them into all truth.  This is the core of inspiration and is explanation for situation like pilates convo
That is still an assumption.  That text doesn't say anything about telling people what happened in certain situations. 

I mean, go ahead and believe it if you want to.  But that is an interpretation and an inferrance on your part, not something the text actually says.
This means that there are lots of things left up to inference and assumption, or perhaps faith.

EDIT: Luke took his eyewitness accounts sometime when Paul was under house arrest.  I'd be interested in knowing which folks he spoke with.  No way of knowing for sure on that either.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 05:59:13 AM by wolfandwolfandwolf »

Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #381 on: February 27, 2012, 07:43:55 AM »
Given the usual dating of John, it would have required essentially an eyewitness account to float around for decades. I think it's rather more likely that the author of John just took artistic license, like in so many other passages of the gospel.

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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #382 on: February 27, 2012, 07:59:23 AM »
It's quite frequent that ancient texts, even history texts, contain conversation, or speeches, or what have you. 

It's just that historians don't believe that it happened verbatim, because it would be ridiculous to think that the details of a conversation could be passed down exactly over decades or centuries.  I don't see why anyone would consider any of the conversations in the Bible to have happened exactly as they appear.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #383 on: February 27, 2012, 08:03:36 AM »
It's just that historians don't believe that it happened verbatim, because it would be ridiculous to think that the details of a conversation could be passed down exactly over decades or centuries.  I don't see why anyone would consider any of the conversations in the Bible to have happened exactly as they appear.

What you are saying makes perfect sense in the abstract.  But as applied to specific conversations, such as the specific conversation with Pilate, the type of error you describe is mitigated by the fact that there is not a large quantity of dialog recorded, but only a few key lines.  It is much easier to preserve the integrity of a few sentences of dialog than a full 10-minute conversation.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #384 on: February 27, 2012, 09:03:03 AM »
Actually, if anything, the other way around. A short dialog is much less likely to be written down than a 10-minute discussion.
Either way, I find it highly doubtful that the Jesus-Pilate dialog was ever truly recorded. My guess is that the basics of the whole event were passed down (Jesus gets put before Pilate, Jews accuse Jesus), but the details were filled in by the respective gospels authors to make a compelling narrative.

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