Author Topic: Jesus never existed?  (Read 38906 times)

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Offline SeRoX

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #175 on: February 19, 2012, 10:14:17 AM »
As a deist, I believe he existed, like Mohammed or like other prophets but in a way how historical papers said, not religion related.

History always gives a human being that leads the people. Religion was (and still) a good weapon to gather people. Jesus was one of them, probably a clever one like others. Back in the days, religion was a important thing, people tended to believe no matter what, it's kinda human nature (which is why I don't understand ateism) So, some one had to do something. But in religion way, I don't believe he had power beyond nature. Just a human being, that's all.
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2012, 10:25:14 AM »
, religion was a important thing, people tended to believe no matter what, it's kinda human nature (which is why I don't understand ateism

I think people have the need to make sense of the world around them, we need some explanation to cope with the (often hostile) world around us and go on with our daily life and in the last 150 years new satisfactory non religious explanations about the world have developed which have substituted religious explanations.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #177 on: February 20, 2012, 10:14:28 AM »
Slightly related to this thread, I was looking at a recent National Geographic issue about the travels of the apostles. To my annoyance they just used the idea that the apostles also wrote the gospels as plain fact.

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Offline Onno

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #178 on: February 20, 2012, 10:57:47 AM »
I think people have the need to make sense of the world around them, we need some explanation to cope with the (often hostile) world around us and go on with our daily life and in the last 150 years new satisfactory non religious explanations about the world have developed which have substituted religious explanations.
This.

Offline Bombardana

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #179 on: February 20, 2012, 02:54:51 PM »
Jesus may have existed but it's really of no importance to his divine claims whether he existed or not. Even if he existed, was born of a virgin, even if he was resurrected, that wouldn't prove that he was right about about anything he said. I seriously doubt most of the key claims about his supposed life simply of the basis that those same traits pop up over and over throughout ancient religious myths, Christianity is just another one. His teachings are far from unique as well, but frankly the idea that you and I need to be "taught" morality like we are inherently immoral is an insulting aspect of religion. But of the main point, I will just reiterate that if it could ever be shown that Jesus the man did exist, there is still all the work in the world needed to then prove his divinity.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #180 on: February 20, 2012, 05:48:19 PM »
Even if he existed, was born of a virgin, even if he was resurrected, that wouldn't prove that he was right about about anything he said.
Really?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #181 on: February 20, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »
Yeah, that statement is rather peculiar. I think if Jesus' divinity could be established without doubt, from thereon just about anything he said should be considered unquestionable. I mean, from my point of view the claims of his divinity came from that motivation.

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Offline Bombardana

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #182 on: February 21, 2012, 02:25:07 AM »
Even if he existed, was born of a virgin, even if he was resurrected, that wouldn't prove that he was right about about anything he said.
Really?
Yeah, that statement is rather peculiar. I think if Jesus' divinity could be established without doubt, from thereon just about anything he said should be considered unquestionable. I mean, from my point of view the claims of his divinity came from that motivation.

rumborak
So, if someone can be proven to do something supernatural, you will believe whatever they tell you based on that?
Let's say Jesus could walk to water. Does it make him divine necessarily? No. Does it mean God exists necessarily? No, it just means that he could walk on water.

Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #183 on: February 21, 2012, 08:56:28 AM »
Yeah, that statement is rather peculiar. I think if Jesus' divinity could be established without doubt, from thereon just about anything he said should be considered unquestionable. I mean, from my point of view the claims of his divinity came from that motivation.

So, if someone can be proven to do something supernatural, you will believe whatever they tell you based on that?
Let's say Jesus could walk to water. Does it make him divine necessarily? No. Does it mean God exists necessarily? No, it just means that he could walk on water.

What about the other claims Jesus makes concerning his divinity?  If those claims and supernatural acts that are more directly related to his divinity (God the Father's approval of Jesus post baptism, the transfiguration) were proven by the method you see fit, wouldn't that validate his divinity?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #184 on: February 21, 2012, 09:23:00 AM »
I think he was specifically referring to the performance of miracles. After all, Christian bishops in Late Antiquity won many converts by performing miracles of their own: exorcisms, healing, clouddriving, locating lost iron tools. Does this make them divine as well?
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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #185 on: February 21, 2012, 09:33:30 AM »
In response to your question, no, but upon my reading, the current discussion is regarding the divinity of Christ based upon all of his actions and statements, not just his actions that could be considered parlor tricks.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #186 on: February 21, 2012, 09:41:36 AM »
Even if he existed, was born of a virgin, even if he was resurrected, that wouldn't prove that he was right about about anything he said.
Really?
Yeah, that statement is rather peculiar. I think if Jesus' divinity could be established without doubt, from thereon just about anything he said should be considered unquestionable. I mean, from my point of view the claims of his divinity came from that motivation.

rumborak
So, if someone can be proven to do something supernatural, you will believe whatever they tell you based on that?
Let's say Jesus could walk to water. Does it make him divine necessarily? No. Does it mean God exists necessarily? No, it just means that he could walk on water.
I don't know, that seems a step down from virgin birth and resurrection.  I mean, fucking resurrection? 
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #187 on: February 21, 2012, 10:00:07 AM »
Even if he existed, was born of a virgin, even if he was resurrected, that wouldn't prove that he was right about about anything he said.
Really?
Yeah, that statement is rather peculiar. I think if Jesus' divinity could be established without doubt, from thereon just about anything he said should be considered unquestionable. I mean, from my point of view the claims of his divinity came from that motivation.

rumborak
So, if someone can be proven to do something supernatural, you will believe whatever they tell you based on that?
Let's say Jesus could walk to water. Does it make him divine necessarily? No. Does it mean God exists necessarily? No, it just means that he could walk on water.
I don't know, that seems a step down from virgin birth and resurrection.  I mean, fucking resurrection?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #188 on: February 21, 2012, 10:09:45 AM »
Quote
A man and his ever-nagging wife went on vacation to Jerusalem.  While they were there, the wife passed away.

The undertaker told the husband, "You can have her buried here in the Holy Land for $150 or we can have her shipped back home for $5,000.

The husband thought about it and told the undertaker he would have her shipped back home.

The undertaker asked him, "why would you spend $5,000 to have her shipped home when you could have a beautiful burial here, and it would only cost $150????"

The husband replied, "Long ago, a man died here, was buried here, and three days later, rose from the dead.
I just can’t take that chance!"
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #189 on: February 21, 2012, 10:28:16 AM »
I might be hijacking a bit...but people tend to focus on the miracles a bit too much, when that was not the main thrust of his being here.

I was just reading the other night about how the apostles wanted him to come back and heal more people, but instead he said that he had to go into other villages to *preach and teach*...and that THAT was the main reason he was even here.   Not to heal the sick or feed the hungry.

I think focusing on the supernatural is missing out on the whole point.  Proof of divinity (to me) has nothing to do with the miracles.  (or at least, it's a very secondary point, since I believe there are evil spirits that are also capable of "supernatural" signs)   It has to do with fulfilled prophecy, and teaching.   


EDIT:  BTW...LOL @Bosk
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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #190 on: February 21, 2012, 10:38:27 AM »
I might be hijacking a bit...but people tend to focus on the miracles a bit too much, when that was not the main thrust of his being here.

I was just reading the other night about how the apostles wanted him to come back and heal more people, but instead he said that he had to go into other villages to *preach and teach*...and that THAT was the main reason he was even here.   Not to heal the sick or feed the hungry.

I think focusing on the supernatural is missing out on the whole point.  Proof of divinity (to me) has nothing to do with the miracles.  (or at least, it's a very secondary point, since I believe there are evil spirits that are also capable of "supernatural" signs)   It has to do with fulfilled prophecy, and teaching.   


EDIT:  BTW...LOL @Bosk

And part of fulfilled prophecy and teaching involves miraculous acts.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #191 on: February 21, 2012, 10:44:07 AM »
^^^^^

Well ya...but as I said.  It's not like it didn't matter *at all*...I was just saying that Jesus' attitude was that people were too focused on the miracles, and I think that should speak volumes.    The miracles do mean something in as much as they fulfill prophecy...but they really shouldn't be the main focus.

EDIT: They are not the "be all and end all" of proof of divinity.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #192 on: February 21, 2012, 10:49:48 AM »
I am a believer in everything Jesus taught and said.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #193 on: February 21, 2012, 11:02:46 AM »
Lol @ musicians and their views.

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Offline Bombardana

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #194 on: February 21, 2012, 04:01:14 PM »
What things did Jesus do that signifies his divinity then?

Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2012, 05:33:39 PM »
What things did Jesus do that signifies his divinity then?

This is where we start to get into a discussion of the reliability of the scriptural account itself.    I have done research on both sides.  I learned some scripture when I was young, became a skeptic later in life, and then really did some *deep* digging into the arguments on *both* sides of the issue.   My personal conclusions were that higher Bible criticism arguments completely fell apart under scrutiny...where as the scriptures were always accurate and reliable.   (*VERY* important to note...I'm talking about The Bible itself...NOT theology's interpretation of it!  MANY conclusions are drawn in "Christianity" that somehow get attributed to The Bible itself...(the earth being created in six literal days for instance)...that are just a misrepresentation of the facts.)

If you believe the Bible account, it's mostly the fulfillment of *HUNDREDS* of prophecies...as well as exact dates etc etc etc.   But God acknowledging his Son in a voice from heaven wasn't a bad one either.   Don't know that I'd call a voice from heaven as "a miracle" per se...just a father acknowledging a son.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2012, 09:31:11 PM »
Lol @ musicians and their views.

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Offline Bombardana

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #197 on: February 22, 2012, 07:22:54 AM »
What things did Jesus do that signifies his divinity then?

This is where we start to get into a discussion of the reliability of the scriptural account itself.    I have done research on both sides.  I learned some scripture when I was young, became a skeptic later in life, and then really did some *deep* digging into the arguments on *both* sides of the issue.   My personal conclusions were that higher Bible criticism arguments completely fell apart under scrutiny...where as the scriptures were always accurate and reliable.   (*VERY* important to note...I'm talking about The Bible itself...NOT theology's interpretation of it!  MANY conclusions are drawn in "Christianity" that somehow get attributed to The Bible itself...(the earth being created in six literal days for instance)...that are just a misrepresentation of the facts.)

If you believe the Bible account, it's mostly the fulfillment of *HUNDREDS* of prophecies...as well as exact dates etc etc etc.   But God acknowledging his Son in a voice from heaven wasn't a bad one either.   Don't know that I'd call a voice from heaven as "a miracle" per se...just a father acknowledging a son.
Respectfully, you didn't answer my question.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #198 on: February 22, 2012, 09:52:00 AM »
What I was trying to say is that I can't and still keep the thread on topic. 

That...and it's an answer that took me *months* of digging.  I'm just not sure that I have the capacity to sum up all of that in a single paragraph. 

The shortest answer wouldn't make any sense without the context of the extended research. 


How about "42"??   :D

EDIT:  The best succinct answer I can give you is, "he fulfilled all the hundreds of prophecies spoken about him in detail."...that's what proves to me that he was who he said he was. Period.  That includes where he was born, that children would be killed when he was born, his teaching activity, his death, dates of his arrival...etc etc etc etc...   
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 10:00:28 AM by jammindude »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #199 on: February 22, 2012, 11:46:18 AM »
Wasn't the Messiah supposed to be called Immanuel or something?

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #200 on: February 22, 2012, 12:00:52 PM »
Yes.  And he was.  (Matthew 1:22-24)
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Offline Tick

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #201 on: February 22, 2012, 12:59:13 PM »
Lol @ musicians and their views.

rumborak
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You knuckleheads do realize I made that for humors sake, don't you?
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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #202 on: February 22, 2012, 01:59:34 PM »
It seems you were misunderstood.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #203 on: February 22, 2012, 02:11:39 PM »
Yes.  And he was.  (Matthew 1:22-24)

Quote
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, [..] and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
[..]
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, [...] and he called his name JESUS.

:lol

Was that Joseph's middle finger to God or something? "Yeah, you want me to call him Emmanuel?! Well, I'm calling him JESUS."

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #204 on: February 22, 2012, 02:16:30 PM »
the fact that his name would be jesus was also prophecied a number of times in Zechariah, whereas emmanuel was one of several titles that were prophecied.  Jeremiah prophecied that his name would be Jehovah Tsidkenu (Yahweh is our Righteousness), etc.  They were not intended as an actual personal name but as a descriptive title

Offline bosk1

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #205 on: February 22, 2012, 02:19:28 PM »
Verse 22 says that he was in fact called immanuel.

EDIT:  What Yesh said.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline rumborak

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #206 on: February 22, 2012, 02:19:53 PM »
Jeremiah prophecied that his name would be Jehovah Tsidkenu,

:lol

You guys are not pitching this one particularly well.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2012, 05:25:38 PM »
Verse 22 says that he was in fact called immanuel.

EDIT:  What Yesh said.

And it would have been *impossible* for someone to insert Verse 22, so as to fulfill the prophecy?

Offline jammindude

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #208 on: February 22, 2012, 09:50:11 PM »
Verse 22 says that he was in fact called immanuel.

EDIT:  What Yesh said.

And it would have been *impossible* for someone to insert Verse 22, so as to fulfill the prophecy?

...and as I said, I've been through deep and thorough research into *both* sides of this argument. My personal conclusion was that the arguments against divine inspiration of the scriptures did not hold water. Your mileage may vary.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Jesus never existed?
« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2012, 09:55:16 PM »
Verse 22 says that he was in fact called immanuel.

EDIT:  What Yesh said.

And it would have been *impossible* for someone to insert Verse 22, so as to fulfill the prophecy?

...and as I said, I've been through deep and thorough research into *both* sides of this argument. My personal conclusion was that the arguments against divine inspiration of the scriptures did not hold water. Your mileage may vary.

Doesn't really answe the question.