Author Topic: Mormonism  (Read 11101 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2012, 07:27:00 PM »
Fascinating discussion....and I'm agnostic  :lol

And what's funny is, so am I.


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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2012, 07:33:41 PM »
You guys lost me when you said that Mormonism isn't an offshoot of Christianity, I always considered it a christian religion.  Imagine confusion like this coming from a man with ten years of parochial school under his belt. :lol

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2012, 07:41:22 PM »
You guys lost me when you said that Mormonism isn't an offshoot of Christianity, I always considered it a christian religion.  Imagine confusion like this coming from a man with ten years of parochial school under his belt. :lol

Oh, I think it's an offshoot. But I think it's as much of an offshoot as Christianity is from Judaism.


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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2012, 08:38:43 PM »
Yes it is.  Although Islam does refer to Jews, Christians, and Muslims as all 3 being "people of the book."

Islam considers Isa (Jesus) a mere prophet, while Christians consider him God. I don't think it's be fair to say that LDS and Islam are just as Christian.


Without Judaism, there would be no Christianity, Islam or Mormonism. They're all offshoots from the same theological tradition, though they take very different approaches and interpret the "true way," or whatnot, completely differently. Mormonism is more similar to Christianity than Islam, and of course Judaism, but it's basic tenants are basically that everything known or thought of about the teaching of Christ is wrong. It's not that much farther, from this, to say that Christ was simply a prophet and not the son of god, as Muslims do.

I mean, what differentiates a Christian from a Jew? Jesus, and taking him as the son of god, and following the New Testament. Both have the same "God." What differentiates a Mormon from a Christian? Joseph Smith, thinking he is a prophet, and following his Book of Mormon. Both have the same "God" (this time Jesus).

Whoa no no young buck-eh. Because one of the main differentiating factors, one that actually places Judaism closer to Islam (in a very limited sense), is that there is no Christian "nation." To be a Jew is to belong to an ethnoreligious group, an identity that stretches beyond the mere religious.

Not to mention the ritual nature of Judaism is so detached from anything resembling Christianity. In a way, it would make more sense to say that their common history is the only tie that binds.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2012, 11:46:55 AM »
Christianity is not "just" about believing in Christ as the Son of God and the messiah, although holy Scripture is the essential source of Christian theology. There is a LOT more to it than that. You have the traditions that were passed down from the Apostles, the Church itself as created by Christ, the early church fathers who carried the same traditions and passed them down, plus the councils and creeds that define the articles of faith as holy Scripture has them. You also have philosophy, natural reason, theologians and history. Each form of Christianity, protestantism, Mormons, JW, each have their methodology to theology. However it begs the question how much needs to change in order for something to become non christian. In my opinion, that would be the basics, Holy Scripture and Tradition. The protestants for the most part stick with most of the traditions except when it comes to the sacraments. Given that Mormonism is gnostic with a tradition to itself, it does ride the fine line of following in the traditions of the apostles. In this sense it could be classified as something parallel to Christianity, but lacking the tradition that would make it so.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2012, 11:21:01 PM »
Yes it is.  Although Islam does refer to Jews, Christians, and Muslims as all 3 being "people of the book."

Islam considers Isa (Jesus) a mere prophet, while Christians consider him God. I don't think it's be fair to say that LDS and Islam are just as Christian.


Without Judaism, there would be no Christianity, Islam or Mormonism. They're all offshoots from the same theological tradition, though they take very different approaches and interpret the "true way," or whatnot, completely differently. Mormonism is more similar to Christianity than Islam, and of course Judaism, but it's basic tenants are basically that everything known or thought of about the teaching of Christ is wrong. It's not that much farther, from this, to say that Christ was simply a prophet and not the son of god, as Muslims do.

I mean, what differentiates a Christian from a Jew? Jesus, and taking him as the son of god, and following the New Testament. Both have the same "God." What differentiates a Mormon from a Christian? Joseph Smith, thinking he is a prophet, and following his Book of Mormon. Both have the same "God" (this time Jesus).

Whoa no no young buck-eh. Because one of the main differentiating factors, one that actually places Judaism closer to Islam (in a very limited sense), is that there is no Christian "nation." To be a Jew is to belong to an ethnoreligious group, an identity that stretches beyond the mere religious.

Not to mention the ritual nature of Judaism is so detached from anything resembling Christianity. In a way, it would make more sense to say that their common history is the only tie that binds.

Oh, I simplified it horribly, to a historical standpoint, and historical events and historical items which caused the split we can notice. Which is why I think the same holds true for Mormonism. It has it's own prophet, it's own holy books and scripture, and a unique social and religious structure.


Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2012, 11:29:51 PM »
Christianity is not "just" about believing in Christ as the Son of God and the messiah, although holy Scripture is the essential source of Christian theology. There is a LOT more to it than that. You have the traditions that were passed down from the Apostles, the Church itself as created by Christ, the early church fathers who carried the same traditions and passed them down, plus the councils and creeds that define the articles of faith as holy Scripture has them. You also have philosophy, natural reason, theologians and history. Each form of Christianity, protestantism, Mormons, JW, each have their methodology to theology. However it begs the question how much needs to change in order for something to become non christian. In my opinion, that would be the basics, Holy Scripture and Tradition. The protestants for the most part stick with most of the traditions except when it comes to the sacraments. Given that Mormonism is gnostic with a tradition to itself, it does ride the fine line of following in the traditions of the apostles. In this sense it could be classified as something parallel to Christianity, but lacking the tradition that would make it so.

The problem with this logic is that it would make most Christians not Christian. Not every Christian attends church regularly or takes part in the traditions (not sure what they would be) but do pray to the Christian god and claim to be saved by Jesus.

Offline Vivace

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2012, 10:29:53 AM »
Christianity is not "just" about believing in Christ as the Son of God and the messiah, although holy Scripture is the essential source of Christian theology. There is a LOT more to it than that. You have the traditions that were passed down from the Apostles, the Church itself as created by Christ, the early church fathers who carried the same traditions and passed them down, plus the councils and creeds that define the articles of faith as holy Scripture has them. You also have philosophy, natural reason, theologians and history. Each form of Christianity, protestantism, Mormons, JW, each have their methodology to theology. However it begs the question how much needs to change in order for something to become non christian. In my opinion, that would be the basics, Holy Scripture and Tradition. The protestants for the most part stick with most of the traditions except when it comes to the sacraments. Given that Mormonism is gnostic with a tradition to itself, it does ride the fine line of following in the traditions of the apostles. In this sense it could be classified as something parallel to Christianity, but lacking the tradition that would make it so.

The problem with this logic is that it would make most Christians not Christian. Not every Christian attends church regularly or takes part in the traditions (not sure what they would be) but do pray to the Christian god and claim to be saved by Jesus.

That's incorrect. Not attending and taking part in the traditions is different than actually throwing them to the side in favor of something else. I don't attend town meetings, rarely watch the State of the Union addresses, only vote in the "main" elections and most people would still consider me American. If they attend church and partake in the traditions once a week, or even twice a year, they are still taking part in the traditions of the Church albeit, not exactly in an enthusiastic way. My point is by forsaking tradition you are moving away from the main facets and tenets of the faith into different territory. This is not partaking causally, this is not partaking at all. Just believing that Christ is the Son of God and praying to this God would be the same as if I understood Obama is the president and Washington DC is the capital, but the constitution, various practices that are particular to Americans are not followed in their fullest sense, if at all. Ask yourself what makes an American? Is that just being born in the United States or does it entail a bit more than that? The same question can be asked of Christians? What makes a Christian? Does it mean worshiping Christ and believing he is the Son of God? A Pagan might do this at the same time believing in other Gods. This was quite common in the Roman Era during the early Church and was common with the Jews during the Exodus (to believe in Yahweh but still practice traditions from Baal).
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2012, 04:12:28 PM »
When I was eight years old my family and I joined the Mormon church. I was baptized a Mormon, and we were active in the church until I was about 17, when one day my dad suddenly declared that we all only needed the Holy Bible for the answers to our heavenly salvation, and that was that. To say that the Mormons are not Christian is very offensive to all Mormons. Mormons are indeed very much a part of the Christian faith. In fact, the official name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mormons believe in the Jesus of the Bible, the same that was born at Bethlehem, grew up in Nazareth, preached His gospel in Galilee and Judea, healed the sick, raised the dead, and finally offered Himself as a sinless ransom for the sins of the world. They believe that Jesus Christ was literally resurrected, that He lives today, and that He is the only name under heaven by which mankind can be saved. This is the Jesus whose name is depicted on the front of every Mormon place of worship. This is the Jesus in whose name every Mormon prays and every sermon is preached. This is the Jesus whose body and blood are commemorated in weekly worship services by Latter-day Saints from Australia to Arkansas, from Carthage to California. For Latter-day Saints who try to live their lives as they believe Jesus taught, assertions that they aren’t Christian are as bewildering as they are hurtful.

Mormons are well aware of the many deep doctrinal differences with other Christians. For instance, Mormons reject the Trinity as non-biblical, and believe the concept to be the product of the creeds that emerged from the 4th and 5th centuries. Further, while embracing the Bible (the King James version is preferred), they don’t interpret it the same way as some Protestants – for instance, that the earth was literally created in six days of 24 hours. Neither do they believe that the scriptural canon was closed with a period and an exclamation mark after the death of the apostles, but that God is perfectly able to talk to prophets today as He did in ancient times. When someone says Mormons aren’t Christian, I'm assumimng that he or she usually means that Mormons don’t embrace the traditional interpretation of the Bible that includes the Trinity. “Our Jesus” is somehow different from “their Jesus.” Further, they mean that some Mormon teachings are so far outside Christian orthodoxy of past centuries that they constitute almost a new religion. Mormons have no argument with assertions that they are not “creedal Christians,” or not “orthodox” Christians or “Trinitarian Christians.” Frankly, the whole point of Mormonism is that it is different.

The folllowing are the Mormon Articles of faith:
Thirteen brief statements written by Joseph Smith that summarize some of the basic doctrines of the Church.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
 

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
 

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

 4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

 6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

 7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

 8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

 9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

 10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

 11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

 12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

 13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

My family "tried out" about a dozen or so different faiths and churches through the years. At one time or another I have attended or been a part of the following churches: Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Church of God, Lutheran, Presbyterian, LDS (Mormon), Episcopal, and in law school I briefly dated a very hot black girl and went with her for a while to her AME Church. The thing I took from all of those experiences is that while there are some fundamental differences in those Christian based faiths, they are all still very much Christian based faiths.

Saying Mormons aren't Christian would be the same as saying Catholics aren't either. I mean ask a Catholic to describe the Book of Revelation to you, or better yet, ask a Catholic priest why Revelation isn't preached in the Catholic church on Sunday (er...Saturday  :biggrin: ). Or because most all protestant based faiths (including the LDS Church) use the New Testament usage for the term "saints", as referring simply and generally to all Christians, and the Catholic church does not, does that make either of them any less Christian? No, it does not.

In a speech in Salt Lake City at the Mormon tabernacle there, John Kennedy said about the Mormon faith, “And what has been true of the Mormons has been true of countless other religious faiths - Jews, Quakers, Catholics, Baptists, Unitarians, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many, many others. All encountered resistance and oppression. All stuck by both their rights and their country. And in time the fruits of liberty were theirs to share as well; and the very diversity of their beliefs enriched our Nation's spiritual strength… Many a great nation has been torn by religious feuds and holy wars - but never the United States of America. For here diversity has led to unity - liberty has led to strength. And today that strength - that spiritual, moral strength - is needed as never before.”

The whole argument about Mormons being Christian reminds me of the "joke" my grandfather told me when I was little. In it a man dies and goes to heaven. He stands before the Pearly gates and says to St. Peter, "I cannot wait to get in here with all those other Lutherans."  St. Peter calmly tells the man, "We don't have any Lutherans in Heaven." The man is beside himself. "What? No Lutherans? Then what do you have here? A bunch of Methodists?"
"No Methodists either", says St. Peter.
The man growing more exasperated asks "Baptists?"
"No." says Peter.
"Don't tell me just Catholics!" says the man.
"No Catholics either." says Peter.
Fully enraged the man demands, "Well what do you have here then ??!!!"
St. Peter says, "Christians."

 :biggrin:

Growing up more or less a Mormon, there was one BIG thing that stood out to me more than any other faith I have ever been exposed too; their devotion to family. The concept and belief in a strong and loving "family" is REALLY big to the Mormons. Mormons are basically taught to even have "family nights' each week, or to dedicate an entire weekend day to a family endeavor. I always thought that was very cool, and overall is lacking in this country in a biiiig way today.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2012, 04:32:46 AM »
I understand your need to defend the Mormons, but I couldn't help but notice you left out the really weird stuff that is the reason that many Christians see them as non-Christian.
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Offline Gadough

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2012, 05:26:19 AM »
I knew a mormon girl all throughout school as a child....meaning K-12, I had classes with her from the age of 5 up to the age of 18. She's one of the nicest, sweetest girls I've ever met. A true gentle soul.

....Almost to the point of being very creepy and unnerving.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2012, 10:33:05 AM »
I understand your need to defend the Mormons, but I couldn't help but notice you left out the really weird stuff that is the reason that many Christians see them as non-Christian.

I think Pentacosts, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and those who take up serpents do "really weird stuff". Maybe they're not really Christian either then.  :\
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 10:38:37 AM by TempusVox »
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2012, 01:42:41 PM »
I understand your need to defend the Mormons, but I couldn't help but notice you left out the really weird stuff that is the reason that many Christians see them as non-Christian.

I think Pentacosts, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and those who take up serpents do "really weird stuff". Maybe they're not really Christian either then.  :\
You can't lump all those churches together. Some are worse offenders than others. Rejecting the trinity and "speaking in tongues" are not on the same level. By the way, your defense amounts to "we're really similar to Christians, except where differ on fundamental theological issues."

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2012, 02:51:24 PM »
I understand your need to defend the Mormons, but I couldn't help but notice you left out the really weird stuff that is the reason that many Christians see them as non-Christian.

I think Pentacosts, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and those who take up serpents do "really weird stuff". Maybe they're not really Christian either then.  :\
You can't lump all those churches together. Some are worse offenders than others. Rejecting the trinity and "speaking in tongues" are not on the same level. By the way, your defense amounts to "we're really similar to Christians, except where differ on fundamental theological issues."

 First of all, who said anything about lumping anything together? And some are worse offenders?? Really? Jesus Christ! No wonder we have so damn many religious wars on this planet. I was using those I listed as an example of how ridiculous Hefs theory was. Personally, I don't really give a rats ass about any one churches divine claim to anything. I more subscribe to the Church of God theme of Christianity. Best church I ever attended was a Church of God, because there was no role or registry to sign or join. They didn't care if you were raised Catholic, Mormon, Baptist or whatever. There was no worry about "back slidin'", women could wear their hair any way they saw fit, and wear just about any style of clothes they chose as well. AND they never claimed to be THE Divine and right church. In fact, if you asked the Pastor he would have told you that so long as you followed the teachings of Jesus, and worshipped God according to scripture, AND were saved, you'd be back home in Heaven someday. Not every Christian church believes that. If you don't see their ideology, you're doomed to hellfire. I say whatever?

I think people are being pretty fucking judgemental though to claim Mormons aren't Christians. In every Mormom church in every pew and I'd bet in every Mormon household there sits a King James version of the Holy Bible. Both Old and New Testaments. There is also a book of Mormon as well (and who am I to say Joseph Smith wasn't visited by angels? I wasn't there) , but my wife who was raised Catholic has a "Catholic Bible" and the entire chapter of Revelation is missing from it. Seems the "Church" thinks John was crazy when he wrote down all he saw. Fine. That's their interpretation. Does that make them "un-Christian"? No.  Mormons and damn near EVERY OTHER so called "Christian" denomination have their own interpretations as well. So, I never said Mormons were SIMILAR to Christians, I said they WERE Christians. Get it right.

Let me say this..I believe as do others that ones own salvation is a very personal thing. Who the hell gives anyone the right to makes claims on my salvation, or to call someone who follows the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they are not Christian? Especially when they follow Him as Lord, and worship at His feet.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2012, 09:46:41 AM »
I also believe that salvation is a personal thing.  But the Pentecostals and Baptists don't add anything to the texts.  Snake handlers are misguided and a little crazy, but they aren't non-Christian.  And none of them believe in celestial marriages (including celestal bigomy) or in becoming a god yourself or in secret names or any of that stuff.  But hey, I didn't say that I thought they weren't Christian.  I mentioned that many Christians don't see the Mormons as Christian.  Life is short, believe whatever it takes to get you there.

BTW, Revelation IS included in the Catholic Bible, as is the rest of the OT and NT.  They just also include the Apocryphal writings, although they don't carry the same weight as the OT or NT.
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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2012, 02:33:02 PM »
I understand your need to defend the Mormons, but I couldn't help but notice you left out the really weird stuff that is the reason that many Christians see them as non-Christian.

In Tempus' defense, Joseph Smith was smart enough to not include the really weird stuff when he wrote the Articles of Faith and sent them to a newspaper editor. 

The idea was that he was just sharing the basics of the religion, and that's exactly why Tempus repeated them here...to show that when you boil off the weirdness, the core doctrines of the church remain--and they are very much tied to the same Jesus that other Christians worship. 

Offline TempusVox

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2012, 03:16:58 PM »
@ Hef. I haven't stepped foot in an LDS Church in 31 years. I don't necessarily subscribe to that particular ideology myself (although there are many components...family strength especially...that I still find very appealling), but there are many faiths that either remove or add to the texts through their own interpretations; and one only need look at the attitude towards the acceptance of the scrolls of Qumran as evidence of just how charged the attidues toward doctrine differ. I think there are many people who dislike or share the sentiment that Mormons aren't Christians because they don't really understand the faith or hear only what their own fundamentalist leaders spew forth about the church and it's members. What makes that "hate speech" basically, so easy to accept is that it’s easier to hate and demonize a “they” that lives primarily in Utah, goes to Mormon-dominant universities, and stays within its own religious enclave of friends and family. It also doesn't help the church when they claim (as nearly all other Christian faiths do) so forcefully, that they are the ONLY divine and right church before God.

I can just share my own experiences with the church, and I can tell you with confidence that it is a Christian based faith. I just think that those who have never actually researched the faith for themselves, or have talked to a Mormon about what they actually believe (theres nearly as much false information floating around about what Mormons actually believe as the Masons. Okay, that's statement is total bullshit, it's not even close to all the crap flying around about the Masons..  :lol ), or actually attended a service, or they probably get their information from some TV preacher are being pretty damn judgemental of the faith. As Paul said (thats' Sir Paul, not St. Paul..  :) ), "The love you take...is equal to the love you make." So, it's all good my Christian brother...it's all good.  :)

And I never said I felt Pentecosts, Baptists, or even those who handle snakes weren't Christian, but because I don't subscribe to their particular ideology doesn't give me the right to claim they aren't either. For me, if you claim to be Christian, believe in and subscribe to the teachings of the Holy Bible, follow and accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, and are saved by receiving the Gift of Salvation...you my friend are a Christian. I don't care if you think the scripture literally means for you to take up dangerous snakes to prove your faith, or you think women shouldn't wear long pants or you leave Revelations out of your version of the Bible (and it is missing entirely...I don't recall what VERSION of the Catholic Bible it is, but it's not there, and it wasn't just a printing error), or manifestation, demonic possession, or even intercession so much that you'd let your child die, rather than have a life saving surgery or medicine...even though I might think you were crazy...I'd never say you weren't a Christian.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 03:32:20 PM by TempusVox »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2012, 08:55:22 PM »
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2012, 10:37:15 PM »
I don't get it. The Mormons believe in Adam and Eve. What's the point if this backtracking then, if everybody descends from those two? Obviously every human can trace their lineage to those two, and thus everybody is Mormon. Case closed. Stupid, but closed.

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2012, 11:18:33 AM »
One thing that most Western Christians and all Mormons that I have interacted with have in common is that they have a very limited understanding of what the intellectual and historical aspects of their religion are.

Lots of Christians try to draw a defining line between themselves and Mormons but fail to do so because they frankly do not understand what they believe fundamentally.  This is based upon my personal interactions, not all Christian people /twocents.

I wish I knew more about the Mormon religion.  I don't understand a lot of it, and that has a lot to do with the fact that when I discuss what I've read about it in their texts/books with actual Mormons, they say that they don't believe any of those things.

Either I am confused, or they are confused.

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2012, 04:17:20 PM »
The only Mormons I've known are people who were born into it, or people who converted in order to marry a Mormon. The latter happens quite a bit as Mormon girls are very cute for some reason.

But yeah, I've never known someone to convert to Mormonism for an intellectual reason. That should speak for itself...
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Online Adami

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2012, 05:30:58 PM »
The only Mormons I've known are people who were born into it, or people who converted in order to marry a Mormon. The latter happens quite a bit as Mormon girls are very cute for some reason.

But yeah, I've never known someone to convert to Mormonism for an intellectual reason. That should speak for itself...

I've never know anyone to convert to Christianity for an intellectual reason. The only thing that says is that I don't know most of the several billion christians out there.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2012, 05:43:37 PM »
I've been meaning to ask, Adami: what are you?

Jewish?

Agnostic?

Atheist?

?
ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

Online Adami

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2012, 05:52:18 PM »
I've been meaning to ask, Adami: what are you?

Jewish?

Agnostic?

Atheist?

?

Jewish Agnostic.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2012, 07:52:39 PM »
In Islam Jesus is not a "mere" prophet, he's one of the three main ones that complete the message. The funny part is that this is why Muslims couldn't respond to the offensive drawings controversies with nasty drawings of Jesus, they can't offend him either. Religious taboos are of insane sensitivities for them. A couple of days ago I met a preacher from a near by church and he had a very interesting point to make about the drawings story, but that's off-topic.
On topic: Did you guys here about Elie Wiesel's problem with Mormons? Apparently Mormons baptize dead Jews posthumously and he directs his anger about at Romney.
 And interview on CNN.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Online Adami

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2012, 07:56:38 PM »
In Islam Jesus is not a "mere" prophet, he's one of the three main ones that complete the message. The funny part is that this is why Muslims couldn't respond to the offensive drawings controversies with nasty drawings of Jesus, they can't offend him either. Religious taboos are of insane sensitivities for them. A couple of days ago I met a preacher from a near by church and he had a very interesting point to make about the drawings story, but that's off-topic.
On topic: Did you guys here about Elie Wiesel's problem with Mormons? Apparently Mormons baptize dead Jews posthumously and he directs his anger about at Romney.
 And interview on CNN.


Not sure how that's Romey's fault, but still that's a horrible thing to do.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2012, 08:32:04 PM »
Jewish Agnostic.


What do you mean? You retain cultural Jewish norms, values, traditions, etc, yet are agnostic?
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Online Adami

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2012, 08:42:00 PM »
Jewish Agnostic.


What do you mean? You retain cultural Jewish norms, values, traditions, etc, yet are agnostic?

I mean that my beliefs are agnostic, while I am culturally, historically and socially a jew. Judaism isn't just a set of beliefs or a religion.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2012, 09:07:44 PM »
Jewish Agnostic.


What do you mean? You retain cultural Jewish norms, values, traditions, etc, yet are agnostic?

I mean that my beliefs are agnostic, while I am culturally, historically and socially a jew. Judaism isn't just a set of beliefs or a religion.

Gotcha
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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2012, 01:10:36 PM »
I realize that I'm completely late to this discussion, but as someone who is outside of the whole thing now but once was on the inside, I don't see how Mormons aren't Christian.  If Christian branch believed the same thing, there wouldn't be so many branches.  Some people just don't want the groups that they see with very different beliefs associated with their own.  Most Christians don't want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church, but they are a Christian religion despite their largely "unchristian" behavior.
     

Offline jammindude

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2012, 07:47:39 PM »
I realize that I'm completely late to this discussion, but as someone who is outside of the whole thing now but once was on the inside, I don't see how Mormons aren't Christian.  If Christian branch believed the same thing, there wouldn't be so many branches.  Some people just don't want the groups that they see with very different beliefs associated with their own.  Most Christians don't want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church, but they are a Christian religion despite their largely "unchristian" behavior.

Sorry...I would never define them that way.   To me, anyone who claims to be Christian must be following the teachings of Jesus Christ.  "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

This isn't hard.  You can't be a vegetarian if you eat meat.   You can't be pregnant if you don't have a baby inside you.   

It's like belonging to "The Betty White Society of Animal Torture"...or the "The Ted Nugent Chapter of the Vegan Club"... 

I can read.  This isn't even something I could even possibly have an opinion on, even if I wanted to.  It's not an objective opinion.  There are guidelines.   I'm an electrician...that means I have to know the National Electrical Code...and if I don't follow it, I lose my licence.   If I continually ignore what the codebook says...I'm no longer an electrician.    Yes...there are electricians out there that shouldn't be...but their course of action will catch up with them.   You have to follow certain guidelines in order to maintain your station.     I can't just walk out onto the street and start pulling wire and call myself an electrician.   I've seen work that was done by "a friend of mine"...and just because they pulled wire (and did something really stupid and dangerous in the process) did not mean they were electricians. 
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Offline wolfandwolfandwolf

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2012, 10:49:23 PM »
Most Christians don't want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church, but they are a Christian religion despite their largely "unchristian" behavior.
That is fundamentally not true.

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2012, 09:36:02 AM »
Try telling them that.  Just because they preach a radically different version than the one you accept doesn't make their beliefs stem from someone other than Jesus.  You're just doing the same thing others try to do with Mormons, disavowing the connection just because you don't like it.

Jammindude, I offer this refutation of your example using your own example.  The National Electrical Code is an agreed upon set of definitions and standards.  Other people can make their own standards higher or lower, but there is a standard definition of what an electrician is.  The only standard definition of a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is the son of God, and he is worshipped.  You're definition of a Christian is a higher standard, but not the accepted standard - just as you may have a personal standard that exceeds the National Electrical Code standards.
     

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2012, 09:40:19 AM »
I would say that a Christian worships Jesus and believes in monotheism - that the God of Christianity is the only God.  That is a key component.  That is, to me, the big thing that separates Mormons from other Christians.

But whatever.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Mormonism
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »
I have great respect for many of the Mormons I've met. 
We share many similar values regarding morals.
Their commitment to family is impressive.
I think their courage in promoting their beliefs is commendable.
Their regard for Jesus Christ clearly sets them a part from other world religions and has similarities to mainstream Christianity.

But the things I know about Mormonism (an entire additional volume of revelation, Christology regarding his divinity, etc) are central themes in new testament and cannot just be overlooked in order to have blind unity.