Men's groups dealing with sexual morality/accountability (NSFW)

[Ħ]

So I'm part of this men's group (Christian group) where we talk about lust issues.  We keep each other accountable from basically four things:


1) Sex/being too sexual with relationship partners
2) Pornography
3) Masturbation
4) Checking out girls


I'm scratching my head because lots of these issues are not totally addressed in the Bible.  I am quite confused, so forgive me for my naive questions.


1) Premarital sex is an obvious no-no.  But then again, what really is marriage?  Is it legal marriage?  Must it involve a wedding?  Can it just be consensual "Oh, we're engaged but we're pretty much married so let's do it"?


2) I've struggled with this at times, especially in high school and early college, but not really anymore.  All Jesus really says is not to look at a woman with lust in our heart.  So...playing devil's advocate, what's the protocol on cartoon pornography, or even pornographic audio files?


3) Is this actually ever condemned?  I don't think the Bible mentions this at all.  But is it a sin to "fantasize" while you're doing it? Does that fall under the "look at a woman with lust" category?


4) Of course, checking out girls I'm pretty sure fits the lust category.  But where exactly is the line?  If we look in someone's eyes and our heart skips a beat, is that too far?  Or is it just when we check out their assets from afar?


Sorry if these questions are a little uncomfortable....hopefully we can have some mature discussion.  My stance right now is just not to risk anything.  But masturbation sure helps to subdue sexual urges, and that's the issue I'm a little more confused about.

[Jamesman42]

Oh wow. Uh.

Number 4 - Thinking a woman is attractive, beautiful etc. cannot be lust. No way. I believe that is more to think about wanting to hit it.

[yeshaberto]

the clearest picture I have found in my study of Scripture on the subject is that intercourse is what creates a marriage.  From the "one flesh" picture of Gen 2, to "entering the tent" representing marriage (can't remember who it was right now), to I Cor 6 and the analogy that sex with a prostitute is becoming "one flesh" with her. 
the wedding ceremony and marriage license is of men.
ideally, what I believe is God's view of how marriage begins doesn't play out very often in man's view of marriage.
nevertheless, I still think this picture demonstrates that sexual intercourse is reserved for husband and wife, and even potentially initiates the marriage.

as for the questions regarding lust, it certainly is a fine line.  I don't think "heart skipping a beat" falls under the category, but it seems to be a matter of conscience when we cross that line.

I tend to think of masturbation as many other things of life.  there is nothing wrong with it innately, but there are principles that can be crossed to where it becomes harmful to us spiritually.

[lordxizor]

1) Premarital sex is an obvious no-no.  But then again, what really is marriage?  Is it legal marriage?  Must it involve a wedding?  Can it just be consensual "Oh, we're engaged but we're pretty much married so let's do it"?

2) I've struggled with this at times, especially in high school and early college, but not really anymore.  All Jesus really says is not to look at a woman with lust in our heart.  So...playing devil's advocate, what's the protocol on cartoon pornography, or even pornographic audio files?

3) Is this actually ever condemned?  I don't think the Bible mentions this at all.  But is it a sin to "fantasize" while you're doing it? Does that fall under the "look at a woman with lust" category?

4) Of course, checking out girls I'm pretty sure fits the lust category.  But where exactly is the line?  If we look in someone's eyes and our heart skips a beat, is that too far?  Or is it just when we check out their assets from afar?

1) I would think as far as God is concerned marriage is a public declaration of a union. I doubt God cares much whether it is validated by any particular government. Whether an engaged couple can be considered "close enough", I don't know. It would be easy to argue that you've committed to each other for life at that point, but it would really depend on the couple and what was in their hearts.

2) I would imagine that audio, drawings, etc are still wrong. You're still lusting after something and are likely picturing something in your head.

3) I don't think masturbation is wrong in all circumstances, but it's hard to separate it from lust. I've always wondered if it's wrong to lust after your wife, which I'd imagine most men do.

4) To me the line is crossed when you move from "wow that girl's attractive" to "man, I'd love to get me some of that." Looking at someone attractive and having your heart skip a beat is a reflex, not a conscious action.

[hefdaddy42]

So I'm part of this men's group (Christian group) where we talk about lust issues.  .

Why?  In my experience, these kinds of groups can be helpful for people with addictions to sex or pornography, but if you have no such issues, I think they are a waste of time and looking for problems where there may not be any.

I'm just sayin'.

Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation.  Wank away all you want with impunity.

[rumborak]

You keep each other "accountable"?! Are you guys doing a mini-Spanish Inquisition?

rumborak

[Ħ]

You keep each other "accountable"?! Are you guys doing a mini-Spanish Inquisition?

rumborak

No more like a AA kinda thing where we just be open with each other.

[rumborak]

I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.

rumborak

[snapple]

Well, I'm doing pre-marriage counseling and the pastor (scientists, other people and well, everyone) said that the average man basically needs to nut once every three days. If you never nut, you end up having problems. Just keep it classy.

[orcus116]

I've always found condemnation of lust to be incredibly unfair because it really is just a primal human instinct. You see someone that your body tells you would make a good mate and mentally you want to mate with them. To feel guilty and sinful because of that is absurd. At least that's how I've always known the Biblical definition of lust so maybe I have it all wrong.

[Dark Castle]

I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved agnostic.

rumborak

Me 

[Ħ]

I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.

rumborak

I don't have to be a part of the group.  It's what I'm choosing to do.

[rumborak]

I doubt leaving the group will be met with a mere "cool, ttyl".

rumborak

[ZBomber]

Yeah, joining a men's group where you discuss touching yourself sounds like something you're stuck in for life.

[Ħ]

I doubt leaving the group will be met with a mere "cool, ttyl".

rumborak

Sure.  They're pretty cool.  They're my friends.

[bosk1]

In my experience, these kinds of groups can be helpful for people with addictions to sex or pornography, but if you have no such issues, I think they are a waste of time and looking for problems where there may not be any.

As with a lot of things, I think whether there is any value in it depends on the specific group and its members.  (Eh-heh-heh-heh!  I said "member" in a thread about wanking.  ) 

But I respectfully disagree that they are a waste of time and "looking for problems where there may not be any."  IMO, the man who has no problem with lusting, immorality, or purity is the exception rather than the rule.  Other than perhaps idolatry, that is the problem discussed the most in the entire Bible.  Sex is an incredibly powerful desire, and the temptation to use it improperly has been rampant since the beginning of time.

[Jamesman42]

^Yeah. It is insane how passion can overtake reason.

[William Wallace]

Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation.  Wank away all you want with impunity.

DTF's resident Bible scholar.

[lonestar]

I can't give you opinions that are Christian based, since I am not a Christian, but here is my two cents on the subjects...

Marriage- I feel that it is a lifetime commitment to a woman, and if you're at that point with a lady, I think it's OK to get to the loving.

Pornography-  If you come across it, you were probably looking for it.  If you come across it by accident anyways, and keep looking, your natural desires and curiosities are acting up.  I am no saint in this category, and have given more than my fair share of coinage to the industry.  Always remember that most of what is portrayed in porn is FICTION. Almost all of the women that I have been with don't love being spanked, or liked facials, or most of the other BS that porn portrays as the kind of sex you need to be having to be considered a man.  My best sex always came with woman whom I loved and was familiar with.  The familiarity brings about the unified passion that makes sex truly great, and that only comes with a long term relationship.  If you buy into the bullshit of porn, you will be disillusioned by the reality of the loving, and it will hinder your sexuality.

Masturbating-  99% of men admit to spanking it, the other 1% are lying.  Just try not to break any records, and remember what I said about porn, keep it in the real world.

Checking out girls- If God doesn't want me to check out women, why did he make them so fucking hot.  Always keep in mind that that fine piece of ass is someone's daughter/sister/niece/mother/aunt/etc.  The moment you forget that she is a person, that is when I feel you are losing perspective.

[AndyDT]

I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.

rumborak

Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.

[rumborak]

I have yet to be called self-dominant or egotistical by anyone in real life. And hey, at least I don't need to start soul-searching threads once a week. So, with all due respect, I think I'm the more balanced of the two of us.

rumborak

[hefdaddy42]

I respectfully disagree that they are a waste of time and "looking for problems where there may not be any."  IMO, the man who has no problem with lusting, immorality, or purity is the exception rather than the rule.  Other than perhaps idolatry, that is the problem discussed the most in the entire Bible.  Sex is an incredibly powerful desire, and the temptation to use it improperly has been rampant since the beginning of time.

Sure, but joining a group therapy session seems pointless unless there is an actual problem.  He even compared it to AA.  Do non-alchoholics go to AA meetings?  What would be the point?  That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and masturbation is fine, there is nothing in the Bible against masturbation.  Wank away all you want with impunity.

DTF's resident Bible scholar.

I do what I can.

[yeshaberto]

I can't give you opinions that are Christian based, since I am not a Christian, but here is my two cents on the subjects...

Marriage- I feel that it is a lifetime commitment to a woman, and if you're at that point with a lady, I think it's OK to get to the loving.

Pornography-  If you come across it, you were probably looking for it.  If you come across it by accident anyways, and keep looking, your natural desires and curiosities are acting up.  I am no saint in this category, and have given more than my fair share of coinage to the industry.  Always remember that most of what is portrayed in porn is FICTION. Almost all of the women that I have been with don't love being spanked, or liked facials, or most of the other BS that porn portrays as the kind of sex you need to be having to be considered a man.  My best sex always came with woman whom I loved and was familiar with.  The familiarity brings about the unified passion that makes sex truly great, and that only comes with a long term relationship.  If you buy into the bullshit of porn, you will be disillusioned by the reality of the loving, and it will hinder your sexuality.

Masturbating-  99% of men admit to spanking it, the other 1% are lying.  Just try not to break any records, and remember what I said about porn, keep it in the real world.

Checking out girls- If God doesn't want me to check out women, why did he make them so fucking hot.  Always keep in mind that that fine piece of ass is someone's daughter/sister/niece/mother/aunt/etc.  The moment you forget that she is a person, that is when I feel you are losing perspective.

really good advice in there lonestar

[the Catfishman]

As a non-Christian... I must say.. a talking group where men talk about their masturbation habits and their 'lust' for random woman sounds like one of the most awkward/creepiest/depressing things ever.

Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.

and that made me laugh.

[yeshaberto]

I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.

rumborak

Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.

not cool, Andy.  consider this a warning

[yorost]

As a non-Christian... I must say.. a talking group where men talk about their masturbation habits and their 'lust' for random woman sounds like one of the most awkward/creepiest/depressing things ever.

No non-Christian requirement, there.

[AndyDT]

I have yet to be called self-dominant or egotistical by anyone in real life. And hey, at least I don't need to start soul-searching threads once a week. So, with all due respect, I think I'm the more balanced of the two of us.

rumborak

Sorry I meant that's the result of doing what you say for me (hence no thanks), as I see it. I didn't say you were egotistical. I said:
 a "week [sic] Self" - i.e. authentic self
", dominant ego" - the small self being dominant

I am sooooo happy I can go home and just rub one off. No Bible breathing down my neck, nobody holding me accountable for what I do with my own body. Just a happy and stress-relieved atheist.

rumborak

Just a week Self, dominant ego and no self-sovereignty. No thanks.

not cool, Andy.  consider this a warning

Please read the above.

[The King in Crimson]

I respectfully disagree that they are a waste of time and "looking for problems where there may not be any."  IMO, the man who has no problem with lusting, immorality, or purity is the exception rather than the rule.  Other than perhaps idolatry, that is the problem discussed the most in the entire Bible.  Sex is an incredibly powerful desire, and the temptation to use it improperly has been rampant since the beginning of time.

Sure, but joining a group therapy session seems pointless unless there is an actual problem.  He even compared it to AA.  Do non-alchoholics go to AA meetings?  What would be the point?  That's all I'm saying.

Maybe a future Tyler Durden in the making?

[JoiseyDTLovah]

I recall that in Genesis, there was an issue with Onan because he spilled his seed on the ground. some consider that to be a reference against wanking.

[bosk1]

Some need to read more carefully because that wasn't Onan's problem.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=29968.msg1166812#msg1166812

[lordxizor]

I recall that in Genesis, there was an issue with Onan because he spilled his seed on the ground. some consider that to be a reference against wanking.

Only people who are really against wanking consider it to be against wanking. In fact it's about something completely different as has been explained many times here, fairly recently in fact. Other could explain it better than me.

[JoiseyDTLovah]

Yeah, I'm not sure one way or the other, but if it is in fact against the rules then put me on the down escalator to hell - I have no chance.

[lordxizor]

Yeah, I'm not sure one way or the other, but if it is in fact against the rules then put me on the down escalator to hell - I have no chance.

No one does.

[Odysseus]

I'm scratching my head because lots of these issues are not totally addressed in the Bible.  I am quite confused, so forgive me for my naive questions.

The bible was written in the Bronze Age.  I get that you want to do the right thing, and respect to you for that, but it is now the 21st century and things have moved on in a lot of ways.  I wouldn't get too caught up in scriptural requirements else you'll end up doing your own head in.  Oh... and don't read Leviticus... 

1) Sex/being too sexual with relationship partners

1) Premarital sex is an obvious no-no.  But then again, what really is marriage?  Is it legal marriage?  Must it involve a wedding?  Can it just be consensual "Oh, we're engaged but we're pretty much married so let's do it"?

Personally I think you need to try before you buy, but if you're happy to take the risk of sexual incompatibility then that's your call - just bear in mind the religious views on divorce.. you could be celibate for a very long time.  Mind you, some people are fine with that.

2) Pornography

2) I've struggled with this at times, especially in high school and early college, but not really anymore.  All Jesus really says is not to look at a woman with lust in our heart.  So...playing devil's advocate, what's the protocol on cartoon pornography, or even pornographic audio files?

Lust is the precursor to sexual love - you surely like the looks of a girl before you want to go over there and chat her up, right?

 As far as porn goes, that's a whole topic in its own right - I think it's fine as nobody is being exploited.  It could be argued that even if the actors/actresses aren't being exploited, the punters are by being made to pay money for it. Big subject.  I wouldn't worry about it unduly.  Taken to a reductio ad absurdum level, we could end up insisting women wear burkhas so they don't tempt us males. Don't really want to take the Saudi Arabian route do we? Nope.

3) Masturbation

3) Is this actually ever condemned?  I don't think the Bible mentions this at all.  But is it a sin to "fantasize" while you're doing it? Does that fall under the "look at a woman with lust" category?

My friend's brother is a doctor.  He says an empty prostate is a happy prostate.  We're all entitled to a shot (har har!) at good health, so fap away regardless.  There's too much guilt associated with masturbation.

4) Checking out girls

4) Of course, checking out girls I'm pretty sure fits the lust category.  But where exactly is the line?  If we look in someone's eyes and our heart skips a beat, is that too far?  Or is it just when we check out their assets from afar?

Meh... covered in point 2.

Someone once said that religion is guilt with different holidays - there's a fair amount of truth in that.  As long as you try to live to the golden rule that is the basis of most cultures, you'll do fine.  Don't worry about it.

[Ħ]

I want to bring in something from another thread:

Any sexual contact outside marriage is sin.  Any sex within marriage is awesome.

What qualifies as "sexual"?  Oral sex?  Kissing? Kissing too much?  Hugging?  Any physical touch whatsoever?  As an unmarried person, should I avoid all these things just to be safe?