MLB 2012 Season v. >Marlels

[snapple]

  da Pirrrrates are looking to trade for a certain, Mr. Allan James Burnett. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

The Pittsburgh FO should just sign these guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvUbbYX9BMs

Title.

Congrats to Larkin! Sure as shit deserved it!


Also, how did McGuire and Paliermo get more votes than Bernie? Bernie didn't juice.

[lonestar]

Go Giants!!!!

[snapple]

Go Giants!!!!

You know when Posey is due back? And do you have any idea if they can lock up both Cain and Lincecum?

[Cool Chris]

AL West Preview:

Angels: Signed Albert Pujols, and CJ Wilson during off-season
Rangers: 2-time AL champ, still young and largely the same team (sans Wilson), and have the rights to try and sign Yu Darvish

Mariners: Preparing to dazzle their fans with another year of mediocrity and bobble head doll nights.

Athletics: Well, Moneyball did well at the box office.

[juice]

Go Angels! 

[lonestar]

Go Giants!!!!

You know when Posey is due back? And do you have any idea if they can lock up both Cain and Lincecum?

Posey should be ready, I know there was thought that he might have been ready for the playoffs last year had we made it.  As far as my twin mancrushes, we got another year with each, then it's payday.(I  think)

[Dimitrius]

Congrats to Larkin! I was surprise to see Javy Lopez get a vote!

[antigoon]

I honestly do not even want to root for or support the Mets this year.

[snapple]

I honestly do not even want to root for or support the Mets this year.

Who can blame you? I'm with the "Selig, the Mets need a new owner" party.

[Tick]

Title.

Congrats to Larkin! Sure as shit deserved it!


Also, how did McGuire and Paliermo get more votes than Bernie? Bernie didn't juice.

As far as we know, Bernie didn't juice. What we do know is he was never suspected or caught. Regardless, Bernie in not a Hall Of Famer, imo.
Also, I believe Barry Larkin just lowered the bar for hall of fame credentials. Not a hall of famer, imo.
Good solid player but someone needs to tell me what makes him a hall of fame player?
Surely his stats don't warrant his entry.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larkiba01.shtml

[Tick]

I honestly do not even want to root for or support the Mets this year.

I will! To my last breath!

[lordxizor]

Title.

Congrats to Larkin! Sure as shit deserved it!


Also, how did McGuire and Paliermo get more votes than Bernie? Bernie didn't juice.

As far as we know, Bernie didn't juice. What we do know is he was never suspected or caught. Regardless, Bernie in not a Hall Of Famer, imo.
Also, I believe Barry Larkin just lowered the bar for hall of fame credentials. Not a hall of famer, imo.
Good solid player but someone needs to tell me what makes him a hall of fame player?
Surely his stats don't warrant his entry.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larkiba01.shtml

I've heard people say he redefined the shortstop position. Not sure how, but if it's true, along with his solid but not spectacular stats, it warrants entry, IMO.

[Tick]

Title.

Congrats to Larkin! Sure as shit deserved it!


Also, how did McGuire and Paliermo get more votes than Bernie? Bernie didn't juice.

As far as we know, Bernie didn't juice. What we do know is he was never suspected or caught. Regardless, Bernie in not a Hall Of Famer, imo.
Also, I believe Barry Larkin just lowered the bar for hall of fame credentials. Not a hall of famer, imo.
Good solid player but someone needs to tell me what makes him a hall of fame player?
Surely his stats don't warrant his entry.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larkiba01.shtml

I've heard people say he redefined the shortstop position. Not sure how, but if it's true, along with his solid but not spectacular stats, it warrants entry, IMO.

He was a good offensive shortstop coming out of an era of a lot of great defensive shortstops. His defense was good, not great.
Ozzy Smith refined the shortstop position, not Barry Larkin. I watched Larkin play his whole career. Great player, just not a hall of famer. Their should be a distinction.
Just my opinion. Everyone is free to disagree.

[snapple]

First 30-30 SS.

Not just based on that, but Larkin was great. But, opinions are just that.


I'm going to try really hard to keep this thread active. Over on MP.com, the most active thread is EASILY the baseball thread. And it's just >10 members posting on it, for the most part. Let's be more active than that!

[chrisbDTM]

hip hip Jorge!

sad to see Posada go, gonna miss him

its down to Jeter and Mariano now

[snapple]

hip hip Jorge!

sad to see Posada go, gonna miss him

its down to Jeter and Mariano now

It was certainly his time. He's had an outstanding career.

I don't know if it's just because he just now is going to retire, but a lot of sports writers (at least that I've seen) say they would vote Posada in the hall. I don't know if I would, but he certainly makes for an interesting case.

[chrisbDTM]

he's not gonna make it. but he was a good Yankee. gonna be weird to not have him there after all this time

[snapple]

he's not gonna make it. but he was a good Yankee. gonna be weird to not have him there after all this time

You never know. Offensively, he was a great catcher. Right up there with Fisk and Bench. Defensively, not so much.

[chrisbDTM]

i gotta go back and watch my '98 yankees VHS tape. what a team

[King Postwhore]

he's not gonna make it. but he was a good Yankee. gonna be weird to not have him there after all this time

You never know. Offensively, he was a great catcher. Right up there with Fisk and Bench. Defensively, not so much.

A good man and nice to see a guy retire with one team in this day and age.  That story I saw about the trouble they've had with his kid and all the surgeries choked me up.

[antigoon]

I honestly do not even want to root for or support the Mets this year.

I will! To my last breath!

I mean, who am I kidding? I'm going to.

I just need a good AL team to follow this season not named the Yankees.

[Tick]

he's not gonna make it. but he was a good Yankee. gonna be weird to not have him there after all this time

Legendary Yankee, and a Yankee hall of famer. Just not a Cooperstown hall of famer.

[YtseBitsySpider]

Congrats to Jack Morris for continuing to make the current voting system look like an utter and complete joke.

Oh wait...I change my mind.
no..now...um..I'm going to change it again this year...we'll see how I feel next year.
Who is jack morris again?

[lordxizor]

Yeah, I realize changing the system would be hard to do, but I've never understood why a person isn't good enough to make the HOF for years, yet suddenly becomes worthy (see Bert Blyleven last year)? To me, you're either worthy or not on the first ballot. Perhaps you get a second chance 3 year or 5 years later or something. Sometimes the true value of your contributions take some time to appreciate, but it's still a crazy system.

And Jack Morris is the holder of one of the greatest pitching performances in the history of baseball. A 10 inning complete game shutout in game 7 of the 1991 WS. One of the best baseball games of all time. If it weren't for that one game, Morris wouldn't even be remotely considered for the HOF. He was also one of the best pitchers in baseball during the 80s and early 90s, but wasn't HOF material IMO.

[Tick]

Yeah, I realize changing the system would be hard to do, but I've never understood why a person isn't good enough to make the HOF for years, yet suddenly becomes worthy (see Bert Blyleven last year)? To me, you're either worthy or not on the first ballot. Perhaps you get a second chance 3 year or 5 years later or something. Sometimes the true value of your contributions take some time to appreciate, but it's still a crazy system.

And Jack Morris is the holder of one of the greatest pitching performances in the history of baseball. A 10 inning complete game shutout in game 7 of the 1991 WS. One of the best baseball games of all time. If it weren't for that one game, Morris wouldn't even be remotely considered for the HOF. He was also one of the best pitchers in baseball during the 80s and early 90s, but wasn't HOF material IMO.

I don't think Morris is anymore then other guys had a few years of brilliance. Orel Hirshiser is a great example of a guy who was unhitable for a stretch. Doc Gooden is another.
I do think Blyleven is borderline but  I'm personally glad he got it.

[TempusVox]

I watched Larkin play his whole career. Great player, just not a hall of famer. Their should be a distinction.
Just my opinion. Everyone is free to disagree.

 I disagree. I too watched Larkin play his entire career. Perhaps my perspective is a little biased since I am a lifelong Reds fan, but he DID redefine the SS position. You argue that Ozzie did, and he did to an extent during HIS time, but I'd argue Davey Concepcion was the same caliber of defensive player as Smith (actually better imo). Barry Larkin transformed the way organizations drafted and evaluated shortstops. Teams started looking at shortstops with a little more power. Guys that were bigger and stronger and more athletic than the typical shortstop. You used to get these short, little guys who would hit eighth and just slap at it. Barry changed all that and how teams drafted.

 His WAR numbers (Wins Above Replacement-WAR calculates the total number of wins that any player adds to his team over the course of a season by comparing the player's performance with that of a fictitious replacement) is better than every other retired shortstop NOT in the HOF, and ranks fifth among those who are; and is better than Ozzie Smith, Lou Boudreau, Pee Wee Reese, Luis Aparicio, Bobby Wallace, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, and Dave Bancroft — who are all currently in the Hall of Fame. In addition the guy had a career .366 OBA — better than the career numbers for Hall of Fame shortstops Banks, Pee Wee Reese, Cal Ripken Jr., Robin Yount, Dave Bancroft, and Bobby Wallace. He was the first SS to be in the 30-30 club, was a 12-time All Star, was intregal to the Reds winning the 1990 World Series, and won the 1995 MVP in the National League.

He does not have 500+ home runs like Ernie Banks, 3,000 hits like Yount, the record for most consecutive games started like Cal Ripken Jr., or 13 Gold Glove awards like Ozzie Smith. He does, however, possess the cumulative statistical resume to be worthy of a Hall of Fame induction, and I'm happy for him. He deserves it. 

[lordxizor]

I do think Blyleven is borderline but  I'm personally glad he got it.

Me too, but that's mostly because I'm a Twins fan and he played for them and is a pretty amusing TV commentator for them these days.

[Tick]

I watched Larkin play his whole career. Great player, just not a hall of famer. Their should be a distinction.
Just my opinion. Everyone is free to disagree.

 I disagree. I too watched Larkin play his entire career. Perhaps my perspective is a little biased since I am a lifelong Reds fan, but he DID redefine the SS position. You argue that Ozzie did, and he did to an extent during HIS time, but I'd argue Davey Concepcion was the same caliber of defensive player as Smith (actually better imo). Barry Larkin transformed the way organizations drafted and evaluated shortstops. Teams started looking at shortstops with a little more power. Guys that were bigger and stronger and more athletic than the typical shortstop. You used to get these short, little guys who would hit eighth and just slap at it. Barry changed all that and how teams drafted.

 His WAR numbers (Wins Above Replacement-WAR calculates the total number of wins that any player adds to his team over the course of a season by comparing the player's performance with that of a fictitious replacement) is better than every other retired shortstop NOT in the HOF, and ranks fifth among those who are; and is better than Ozzie Smith, Lou Boudreau, Pee Wee Reese, Luis Aparicio, Bobby Wallace, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, and Dave Bancroft — who are all currently in the Hall of Fame. In addition the guy had a career .366 OBA — better than the career numbers for Hall of Fame shortstops Banks, Pee Wee Reese, Cal Ripken Jr., Robin Yount, Dave Bancroft, and Bobby Wallace. He was the first SS to be in the 30-30 club, was a 12-time All Star, was intregal to the Reds winning the 1990 World Series, and won the 1995 MVP in the National League.

He does not have 500+ home runs like Ernie Banks, 3,000 hits like Yount, the record for most consecutive games started like Cal Ripken Jr., or 13 Gold Glove awards like Ozzie Smith. He does, however, possess the cumulative statistical resume to be worthy of a Hall of Fame induction, and I'm happy for him. He deserves it. 

I'm sure if I was a homer Reds fan like you I would want him in as well.

[TempusVox]

^ Maybe...but he's in, so it doesn't matter. 

[Tick]

^ Maybe...but he's in, so it doesn't matter. 

No it doesn't. Glad you are happy. Sports is just fun to debate. The voters saw him as a hall of famer, so he is.

[Dimitrius]

Yeah, I realize changing the system would be hard to do, but I've never understood why a person isn't good enough to make the HOF for years, yet suddenly becomes worthy (see Bert Blyleven last year)? To me, you're either worthy or not on the first ballot. Perhaps you get a second chance 3 year or 5 years later or something. Sometimes the true value of your contributions take some time to appreciate, but it's still a crazy system.

Wasn't the advent of saber metrics what really helped Blyleven's case?

I just think that they need to change the voters, add more people who look at more than just AVG/HR/RBI/W/K.

And the steroid players, if they have the numbers to get in, they should be in. As ethically wrong as it may have been, they didn't break any rules.

[Tick]

Yeah, I realize changing the system would be hard to do, but I've never understood why a person isn't good enough to make the HOF for years, yet suddenly becomes worthy (see Bert Blyleven last year)? To me, you're either worthy or not on the first ballot. Perhaps you get a second chance 3 year or 5 years later or something. Sometimes the true value of your contributions take some time to appreciate, but it's still a crazy system.

Wasn't the advent of saber metrics what really helped Blyleven's case?

I just think that they need to change the voters, add more people who look at more than just AVG/HR/RBI/W/K.

And the steroid players, if they have the numbers to get in, they should be in. As ethically wrong as it may have been, they didn't break any rules.

but they won't get in, imo.

[Dimitrius]

Most likely they won't because of the dinosaur voters. But I can't take the HoF seriously if they're gonna left out people like Barry Bonds.

[blackngold29]

The Baseball Today guys had a great discussion about the HoF last week (https://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=2386164 the 1/3 show). It's not really fair to not vote some guys in because of suspicion they used roids while voting in guys who aren't with the same numbers. Nobody knows who did what. Just put them in, everybody knows what era they played in.

[lonestar]

Most likely they won't because of the dinosaur voters. But I can't take the HoF seriously if they're gonna left out people like Barry Bonds.

We'll see next year when Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa all hit the ballot.  I find it really hard to leave off the first two.  At some point they need to stop punishing that era of baseball and accept the widespread usage of PEDs as a developmental part of the game.  It happened, they took measures to curb it, move on, and honor the players who were the elite of said era.  Bonds and Clemens would have put up HOF numbers with or without the drugs.