The two must underrated albums I've ever known: SC and BC&SL.

[chrisbDTM]

TDEN is just a little too cheesy. awesome musically with a cool instrumental section. 'grotesque creatures battle'

annoys me that its the first thing that shows up when you search youtube for DT

[Jaffa]

I've gone off piste again. Neither of those paragraphs ended up on topic. Just... rambles, vaguely dedicated to the memory of each album. I should have one of those collars.

Only if that collar enhances, rather than restricts, your magic powers. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The epic Suck that is TMoLS not only sucked so badly that it dragged SC into the cesspool of worst DT album ever, it also retroactively pulled Octavarium in the "meh" catagory, and cast a pre-emptive shadow of Suck over BCSL. In fact, the song was so bad, it tainted every other single song released by any band, anywhere, during the month it was released, as well as drastically decreased the property value of the studio building in which is was written and recorded. I've taken thousands of showers since last listening to it, and I still can't get the Suck off. I had to replace the CD player in my car, and it leaked suck all over the other songs on my .mp3 player, which also had to be disposed of in a toxic waste receptacle. TMoLS is the primary reason SC sucked, and the reason the rest of the SC tracks cannot be objectively evaluated apart from the residual Suck of that single track.

The only thing that rivals my passion for DT is my absolute revulsion of this worst, by the numbers, phoned in, bored to tears track. It is IMO the perfect snapshot of everything that was wrong with the band in the mid 00's. I fucking hate that song, and I hate it so much it makes me hate the whole album. Plus the lyrics to most of the songs are just plain silly. It was like they turned into some teen-age Norwegian death metal band writing about fantasy monsters and ghosts, and TMoLS is the ultimate example of this misguided and ridiculous image the band tried to develop when they signed to Roadrunner. Guys in their 40's singing about mummies and comic books. Really? It was embarrassing and transparent, DT trying to be something they weren't.

I fucking hate that song and everything it represents in DT history. By the time it reached the first chorus, I knew the train and the tracks were going in two different directions.

POTC (Post of the Century)

[Jaq]

Also:

The epic Suck that is TMoLS not only sucked so badly that it dragged SC into the cesspool of worst DT album ever, it also retroactively pulled Octavarium in the "meh" catagory, and cast a pre-emptive shadow of Suck over BCSL. In fact, the song was so bad, it tainted every other single song released by any band, anywhere, during the month it was released, as well as drastically decreased the property value of the studio building in which is was written and recorded. I've taken thousands of showers since last listening to it, and I still can't get the Suck off. I had to replace the CD player in my car, and it leaked suck all over the other songs on my .mp3 player, which also had to be disposed of in a toxic waste receptacle. TMoLS is the primary reason SC sucked, and the reason the rest of the SC tracks cannot be objectively evaluated apart from the residual Suck of that single track.

The only thing that rivals my passion for DT is my absolute revulsion of this worst, by the numbers, phoned in, bored to tears track. It is IMO the perfect snapshot of everything that was wrong with the band in the mid 00's. I fucking hate that song, and I hate it so much it makes me hate the whole album. Plus the lyrics to most of the songs are just plain silly. It was like they turned into some teen-age Norwegian death metal band writing about fantasy monsters and ghosts, and TMoLS is the ultimate example of this misguided and ridiculous image the band tried to develop when they signed to Roadrunner. Guys in their 40's singing about mummies and comic books. Really? It was embarrassing and transparent, DT trying to be something they weren't.

I fucking hate that song and everything it represents in DT history. By the time it reached the first chorus, I knew the train and the tracks were going in two different directions.

Wasn't Systematic Chaos recorded before they signed to Roadrunner?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Don't try and use any logic when reading that post. Just bathe in the sheer, unadulterated hatred.

[ElliottTamer]

I didn't really bother to read everyone's comments, but here's my two cents:

Just so you know where I'm coming from: I first became a DT fan with Octavarium, my second album being Awake (and then I don't remember anymore). Both SC and BC&SL are more up than down in my rankings (certainly over FII, WDADU, Awake, Train of Thought, competitive with the rest, excepting SFAM and maybe SDIT).
On the individual songs: Both ItPoE and CoT are amongs my top 10 DT songs, I love Wither and The Best of Times, actually find The Shattered Fortress the best part of the AA Suite, followed by Repentance. I also like The Ministry of Lost Souls quite a lot (though the instrumental section in the middle is somewhat unnecessary/out of place). The rest of the albums is, in my opinion, also pretty solid, excepting Constant Motion...

All in all, I think the problem with "underrated" DT albums or even songs is that they have produced so much that is so good that the standards have become too high.

[chrisbDTM]

Shattered Fortress as best 12step song? ive never heard that before

[hefdaddy42]

Wasn't Systematic Chaos recorded before they signed to Roadrunner?

Yes.

[Jaq]

Don't try and use any logic when reading that post. Just bathe in the sheer, unadulterated hatred.

Funniest part for me is that I like TMOLS, and have no problem with the instrumental break. Why pick on it when Prophets of War is right there waiting for your hatred? 

[Loser1]

I like both albums, maybe Black Clouds a little more than Systematic Chaos. No complaints from me, and I could care less what lyrics are put to their music. It's about music to me. I don't require deep lyrical content, just great musical performance, which both albums provide.

[Pinga]

The problem's not that the lyrics are deep or not; ADTOE's lyrics are not deep at all, and yet they're worlds apart from those on the previous albums in terms of quality. The biggest problem with them is just that they're plain bad, and the main culprit of that would have to be their hasty songwriting method for those albums. It also affected the quality in other departments, like soloing. Those two albums were overflowing with uninspired, meandering soloing from Rudess, and overall the solo sections were very poorly placed. Compare them with ADTOE's much more concise songs and Rudess's surprisingly impeccable soloing.

[The Letter M]

The problem's not that the lyrics are deep or not; ADTOE's lyrics are not deep at all, and yet they're worlds apart from those on the previous albums in terms of quality. The biggest problem with them is just that they're plain bad, and the main culprit of that would have to be their hasty songwriting method for those albums. It also affected the quality in other departments, like soloing. Those two albums were overflowing with uninspired, meandering soloing from Rudess, and overall the solo sections were very poorly placed. Compare them with ADTOE's much more concise songs and Rudess's surprisingly impeccable soloing.

True. Find someone who likes instrumental music, and give them the Instrumental Mixes of both BC&SL and ADTOE, and ask them which album had the better MUSIC. Regardless of lyrics, I'd still take the MUSIC of the latter over the former.

-Marc.

[Pinga]

Exactly. Although, I must say, BC&SL and SC are for me, above all else, really frustrating listens, since many of the songs hold so many worthy ideas.

[Sigz]

SC has some really great and good songs. ITPOE pt. 1 is absolutely fantastic, and I actually enjoy Constant Motion and Forsaken. Repentance is great (though definitely needs some cutting down), and besides the out of place instrumental I quite like TMOLS.

BCSL has some really great parts, but the absolutely shit lyrics really kill a lot of it for me (and that's saying a lot, cause normally I pay very little attention to lyrics unless they have a reason to stick out at me). And in reality, I just never find myself wanting to listen to it (though I don't find myself wanting to listen to SC a whole lot either).

[jammindude]

[Lumbergh]

Yeaaaaaaahhh....I'm going to have to...kindof...go ahead and....disagree with you there....

[/Lumbergh]

[Metrovarium]

I dislike Systematic Chaos as a whole album, but the songs on them are underrated. ITPOE (the whole song) is incredible, minus some of the cheesy lyrics, and the first half of Repentance is one of the best things about the 12-step suite. The Dark Eternal Night is a pretty good metal song as well. But the album doesn't flow well, in my opinion; it doesn't sound like a collective whole to me. And songs like TMOLS and POW deter me from enjoying the album more.

Black Clouds is definitely underrated, though. The only weak song is Wither, and even that is pretty good. The album features some of my favorite LaBrie vocals on recent albums (in particular, the chorus of AROP and much of TSF), though I didn't care for some of the attempts to make his vocals sound harsher. It's definitely an improvement over Systematic Chaos in that it sounds like a collective whole; I feel inclined to listen to the whole album rather than just a track at a time.

However, they're still certainly some of DTs worst albums (other than FII), so their lack of praise isn't surprising.

[energythief]

First of all, not everyone on the DT community hates these albums with a passion - that's a big overgeneralization.  Second of all, not everyone considers The Count of Tuscany to be top 20 material - some people even consider it a least favorite, though that's most frequently an issue of lyrics more than anything else.  A Nightmare To Remember is even less universally praised - some people consider it a mess of a song, or three songs poorly strung together.  Third of all, just because someone hates Systematic Chaos does not necessarily mean they hate ItPoE - a lot of people love that song, or at least part one of it.  But an album that is, as you put it, one third good, is not necessarily a good album. 

Everything else you said just comes down to a matter of opinion.

OP, read this a million times.

[cramx3]

Black Clouds is definitely underrated. Great album and one of DTs best IMO. SC... is in its proper place.

[Loser1]

I guess I'm not picky at all in terms of lyrics. Frank Zappa had some of the goofiest, silliest lyrics, but they were put to amazing compositions. DT could have topics of peeing in snow or make fun of a gay man (ala Zappa) and I wouldn't care. It's literally all about music and melody to me. I like both albums!

[Dellers]

The problem with SC and BC&SL for me is that there's nothing that makes me want to listen to them. It's not so much that they're filled with cringe-worthy moments; it's more so that there's an absence of good.

I pretty much agree with this. The albums are quite boring IMO. Not that much interesting instrumental stuff, not many good melodies, and I hate the mixing. Soundwise it's some of the worst albums I have in my collection of more than 1000 albums. And no, TCOT doesn't do anything for me. I have no idea why that song is so long, it's just boring. Actually I think it drags BC&SL down.

[WildeSilas]

Don't try and use any logic when reading that post. Just bathe in the sheer, unadulterated hatred.

Funniest part for me is that I like TMOLS, and have no problem with the instrumental break. Why pick on it when Prophets of War is right there waiting for your hatred? 

I have a whole 'nother rant for Prophets of War but just dwelling on TMOLS long enough to type my last post has turned my brain into mush and it will be some time before I can drag myself from the seeping dump of Suck to turn that rant into an actual post. I'll keep you posted.

On that note, consider this: If someone (me) hates Muse and thinks they're possibly the most overrated band to come along in the last fifteen years, how much is that person (me) going to hate it when their (my) favorite band starts trying to sound like them on several consecutive albums? Where is the breaking point? I'll tell you: Prophets of War is the fucking breaking point. Exhibit #2 re: Why SC sucks huge oxen testicles.

[Dark Castle]

BC&SL was my first so it will always hold special value to me, but it's still not in my most favorite.

[GunsOfThePatriots]

MAN the Part from 02:10 to 04:07 in ITPOE PT1 is A Musical Bliss.

That section alone Defines What DT's Music is ===> Music with Soul

[Ruba]

MAN the Part from 02:10 to 04:07 in ITPOE PT1 is A Musical Bliss.

That section alone Defines What DT's Music is ===> Music with Soul

Damn the whole song is great, in their top 20! And so is Forsaken.

Constant Motion is alright, though I haven't listened it for over a year, because it somehow bores me. TDEN is very good.

I should get Systematic Chaos on vinyl. 1) Cool cover art looks even better. 2) After the decent A-side I could take it off from my player and put back to sleeve (or whatever it is in English). TMOLS is alright, but I haven't listened that too in over a year.

[darkshade]

I listened to The Count of Tuscany last night, and I got chills for the first time in a while. Great, great song. The rest of the album is almost as good. IMO, BC&SL is their best album between --ToT, 8vm, SC, and BC&SL--

[WildeSilas]

Wasn't Systematic Chaos recorded before they signed to Roadrunner?

It was. My point is that it's obvious at that point that MP was purposely trying to push the band toward a more METUL sound, and some of the other guys were a bit pissed with it (see the Making Of DVD where JLB is recording vocals for TDEN with that ridiculous effect). I can't imagine that Jordan, the Gentle Giant/Genesis fan was very enthused about it either. IMO, the whole ghost story/monster/DARK MAAAASSTUUURRR bullshit of SC was part and parcel of this push to be "modern" and "relevant" (MP's words, not mine). Yay! You guys would fit right into a festival bill with Slipknot and As I Lay Dying! Just what I wanted for my favorite prog-rock band.   
I'm not saying RR pushed them to do this, but I think it was done consciously so as to fit in with the types of bands on a label like RR. It begs the question, why was DT trying to "fit in" with any of these fucktard, scream-o, Sepultura wannabe bands in the first place? They're DT, people should be conforming to THEM. The whole thing just left such a bad taste in my mouth, and TMOLS was the first time I threw up my hands and thought, "Well, this is it for me and DT. I'm obviously no longer part of their 'target demographic.' FUCK."

[Dublagent66]

SC & BC&SL were decent albums with great closers.  ADTOE on the other hand, no matter how much certain songs grow on me, the closer track just kills it.  Not a very climactic ending to and album.  More sleep inducing than anything.  I'll never understand why they did that.  But whatever... 

[rumborak]

I don't know whether SC or BCSL are over- or underrated, but I can tell you that have not had the desire to listen to SC in the last two years or so, and off BCSL I essentially only listen to TCOT.

rumborak

[Jaq]

I never actually gave my opinion of them, did I? 

Of the two, I actually like SC better than BCSL. While some have cited that DT was attempting to get METUL and all that, I didn't really see that happening beyond TDEN, which I always saw as being tongue in cheek. The lyrics of ITPOE being based on a manga is no worse to me than the usual hippie flight of fancy lyrics that plague all too many prog bands, and the albums biggest black mark is Prophets of War, which has earned the rarest of rare designations from me, the Always Skip This designation. (The only other Dream Theater song on this list is Honor Thy Father, for the record.)

BCSL, though? It made an immediate good first impression, but I quickly grew bored with it. Everything about it screams too hard of a band trying desperately to be huge and epic sounding, instead of making good songs. It feels like they sat down and tried to write as many plus 13 minute long songs as they could without thinking if they should. It's an album of amazing parts-the intro to TCOT, for example-but precious few songs. SC I still play on occasion, BCSL, honestly, I've played the covers disc that comes with the special edition more often lately.

[lithium112]

The only songs on SC and BC&SL I don't really listen to are TBOT and to some extent Repentance. I get kinda bored of TBOT and Repentance I find drags a bit, though I'm occasionally in the mood for the song in which case it kicks ass. The rest of the songs are either good or great! TMOLS, CM and TCOT are among my favourite songs.

[BlobVanDam]

Wasn't Systematic Chaos recorded before they signed to Roadrunner?

It was. My point is that it's obvious at that point that MP was purposely trying to push the band toward a more METUL sound, and some of the other guys were a bit pissed with it (see the Making Of DVD where JLB is recording vocals for TDEN with that ridiculous effect). I can't imagine that Jordan, the Gentle Giant/Genesis fan was very enthused about it either. IMO, the whole ghost story/monster/DARK MAAAASSTUUURRR bullshit of SC was part and parcel of this push to be "modern" and "relevant" (MP's words, not mine). Yay! You guys would fit right into a festival bill with Slipknot and As I Lay Dying! Just what I wanted for my favorite prog-rock band.   
I'm not saying RR pushed them to do this, but I think it was done consciously so as to fit in with the types of bands on a label like RR. It begs the question, why was DT trying to "fit in" with any of these fucktard, scream-o, Sepultura wannabe bands in the first place? They're DT, people should be conforming to THEM. The whole thing just left such a bad taste in my mouth, and TMOLS was the first time I threw up my hands and thought, "Well, this is it for me and DT. I'm obviously no longer part of their 'target demographic.' FUCK."

Dude, you need to calm the hell down. Every single post of yours in this thread is over the top ridiculous.

[WildeSilas]

Or maybe you need to lighten the hell up? 

I don't generally post ridiculous, over the top stuff. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm stating an emphatic opinion about the topic of this thread and attempting to inject a bit of humor into to it so as to curb its bluntness. I'm confused as to what's wrong with that. Is it that my opinion is too strong for your taste, or that you're simply THAT serious about a DT song? Either way, rent a sense of humor.

Restatement for Blob: I mildly dislike TMOLS, but only in the sense that I prefer other songs more. Is that milktoast enough? Not trying to be disrespectful, but I feel like you're yelling at me for having a strong opinion. Which is the backbone of any worthwhile discussion. I've not said anything I didn't mean, and perhaps used colorful language to say it. The only thing ridiculous here is that you need to have that spelled out for you.

[BlobVanDam]

There's a big difference between joking around for humour, and just bashing as if the Systematic Chaos CD ran over your dog. Your post doesn't at all read like someone having fun. It reads like someone who takes music they dislike way too seriously. I'd take your own advice on that and lighten up a lot. Maybe spend a bit less of your precious time continually ranting about something you don't even like.

edit: And read back. Me yelling? What irony.

[jammindude]

Wasn't Systematic Chaos recorded before they signed to Roadrunner?

It was. My point is that it's obvious at that point that MP was purposely trying to push the band toward a more METUL sound, and some of the other guys were a bit pissed with it (see the Making Of DVD where JLB is recording vocals for TDEN with that ridiculous effect). I can't imagine that Jordan, the Gentle Giant/Genesis fan was very enthused about it either. IMO, the whole ghost story/monster/DARK MAAAASSTUUURRR bullshit of SC was part and parcel of this push to be "modern" and "relevant" (MP's words, not mine). Yay! You guys would fit right into a festival bill with Slipknot and As I Lay Dying! Just what I wanted for my favorite prog-rock band.   
I'm not saying RR pushed them to do this, but I think it was done consciously so as to fit in with the types of bands on a label like RR. It begs the question, why was DT trying to "fit in" with any of these fucktard, scream-o, Sepultura wannabe bands in the first place? They're DT, people should be conforming to THEM. The whole thing just left such a bad taste in my mouth, and TMOLS was the first time I threw up my hands and thought, "Well, this is it for me and DT. I'm obviously no longer part of their 'target demographic.' FUCK."

Actually...I pretty much agree with every word of this post....

[robwebster]

I feel like you're yelling at me for having a strong opinion.

It's really more that it crosses the line between "strong" and "maniacal." With respect, it reads like your head's exploding.