The two must underrated albums I've ever known: SC and BC&SL.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Wasn't Systematic Chaos recorded before they signed to Roadrunner?

It was. My point is that it's obvious at that point that MP was purposely trying to push the band toward a more METUL sound, and some of the other guys were a bit pissed with it (see the Making Of DVD where JLB is recording vocals for TDEN with that ridiculous effect). I can't imagine that Jordan, the Gentle Giant/Genesis fan was very enthused about it either. IMO, the whole ghost story/monster/DARK MAAAASSTUUURRR bullshit of SC was part and parcel of this push to be "modern" and "relevant" (MP's words, not mine). Yay! You guys would fit right into a festival bill with Slipknot and As I Lay Dying! Just what I wanted for my favorite prog-rock band.   

I don't agree with any of the stuff you wrote about Roadrunner in this post, but I agree with the gist of this section here. Somewhere around SC and BC&SL, MP wanted DT to be a different band. I'm not only talking about the music itself, but also the image. I think that somewhere along the line, MP got tired of being in an "uncool" band and started to envy Avenged Sevenfold and Opeth a little bit.

[Millais]

TDEN is just a little too cheesy. awesome musically with a cool instrumental section. 'grotesque creatures battle'

annoys me that its the first thing that shows up when you search youtube for DT

advantages and disadavantages to it being first in the search on youtube:
Ad: - it gets people who aren't fully into prog, perhaps the more metal side, into DT.
Disad: - not the best first song as a taster of DT, it's not representative of their musical style.

[Jaffa]

I feel like you're yelling at me for having a strong opinion.

It's really more that it crosses the line between "strong" and "maniacal." With respect, it reads like your head's exploding.

I personally thought that made it funny, for what it's worth. 

[ColdFireYYZ]

I like both albums. Neither are masterpieces but they're good for what they are.

[WildeSilas]

I feel like you're yelling at me for having a strong opinion.

It's really more that it crosses the line between "strong" and "maniacal." With respect, it reads like your head's exploding

Fair enough. I've posted a few satirical things around the forum, but I also lurked for years before posting, so I guess I forget that no one here really knows me well enough yet to realize when I'm being purposefully over the top. I do feel really strongly about SC and MP's seeming embarrassment over DT not being "modern." He said some disrespectful things about JLB starting around that time as well and it's marked the entire album cycle as bad for me. I mean everything I've said, and you can take the colorful verbage for what you will. Obviously my sense of humor isn't very much in line with this place yet. (does it have a sense of humor? Everyone seems to take everything so seriously.)

[hefdaddy42]

The two must underrated albums I've ever known: SC and BC&SL.

Must they?

[krands85]

Obviously my sense of humor isn't very much in line with this place yet. (does it have a sense of humor? Everyone seems to take everything so seriously.)

A few people seemed to enjoy the post earlier in the thread. I love TMOLS, but still found your post entertaining 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I feel like you're yelling at me for having a strong opinion.

It's really more that it crosses the line between "strong" and "maniacal." With respect, it reads like your head's exploding

Fair enough. I've posted a few satirical things around the forum, but I also lurked for years before posting, so I guess I forget that no one here really knows me well enough yet to realize when I'm being purposefully over the top. I do feel really strongly about SC and MP's seeming embarrassment over DT not being "modern." He said some disrespectful things about JLB starting around that time as well and it's marked the entire album cycle as bad for me. I mean everything I've said, and you can take the colorful verbage for what you will. Obviously my sense of humor isn't very much in line with this place yet. (does it have a sense of humor? Everyone seems to take everything so seriously.)

I think everything you've posted up until now has been hilarious.

[WildeSilas]

Okay, thanks. I didn't think it was overly complicated humor, but the usually perceptive Blob didn't get it, so I was worried.  When ADTOE came out, I posted a spoof review and got the thread closed the first week I was here. DTF = Serious Business. (though that misunderstanding was worked out). For future reference, I'm really mellow in RL and rarely get worked up about much of anything. I do have strong opinions about music, but I don't really care if anyone agrees with me or not. Of all my opinions re: music, the SC/BCSL era issue draws stronger emotion than just about anything else.

Edit@Blob: I'm not "wasting my time" posting about something I hate. I'm posting about something I love (DT), and I'm answering the specific question posed by the OP. It seems to me that since you don't agree with my opinion, you feel justified in calling me out twice in this thread for having a strong opinion about it, or at least over the way I state it. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm allowed to state said opinion however I like so long as it isn't bashing band members or breaking forum rules. Did I break an unspoken "Blob" rule of which I'm unaware? I'm happy to take it up with you on PM, but you felt free to bash me for it publicly, so here we are. Fact is, this is the EXACT appropriate place to air my opinion, since SC and specifically TMOLS is IMO the epitome of what was wrong with DT during this era, and EXACTLY keeping with the topic of the thread.  I didn't go looking for a thread to purposely troll SC or TMOLS; we're already discussing it. What did I do wrong (since you feel the need to call me out on it publicly)? Again, not trying to stir shit, just feel like you're being a bit of a bully since you didn't get a humorous post that most others apparently did, or simply didn't agree with it. 

[robwebster]

I feel like you're yelling at me for having a strong opinion.

It's really more that it crosses the line between "strong" and "maniacal." With respect, it reads like your head's exploding

Fair enough. I've posted a few satirical things around the forum, but I also lurked for years before posting, so I guess I forget that no one here really knows me well enough yet to realize when I'm being purposefully over the top. I do feel really strongly about SC and MP's seeming embarrassment over DT not being "modern." He said some disrespectful things about JLB starting around that time as well and it's marked the entire album cycle as bad for me. I mean everything I've said, and you can take the colorful verbage for what you will. Obviously my sense of humor isn't very much in line with this place yet. (does it have a sense of humor? Everyone seems to take everything so seriously.)

No, no, it's totally cool! Hyperbole is utterly hilarious, and it is ridiculous amounts of fun to play "Angry Bastard #6" - throw off the shackles and just Jamie McDonald the hell out of that fucker.

I just thought it was a bit odd to then defend that excess by saying "I'm just expressing a strong opinion." It's the difference between a dog being "playful" and "bitey." Or the difference between a bruise and a hernia. It's either comically exaggerated for a bit of a laugh or a sincere expression of the true ferocity of your hatred - if it's the former, that's great, and funny, and everything you've since said has made clear that it was, but if it was the latter and you genuinely thought, as you said, that BVD was yelling at you for having a strong opinion, as opposed to a deliberately nutty opinion, you might need to drink a few less sugary drinks. It was either sincere or it wasn't. I was pretty sure it wasn't until you started defending it as though it was. 'Sall I was getting at!

But now everything is clear. Hurrah.

[WildeSilas]

I don't know why such a clear line is necessary. I have a ferocious hatred for that song, yes. But it's also music and subjective, so I try to have a sense of humor when I'm expressing my hatred of it. It's what objective people do when offering a strong opinion, realizing it may not be shared by others. It's intended to take the edge off a bit. I think the nature of the joke is pretty clear when I'm saying things like "it destroyed my CD player" which is obviously not true. Obviously not your sense of humor if it has to be explained in exacting detail to you in order to separate the excess from the opinion. Oh well.

[BlobVanDam]

Edit@Blob: I'm not "wasting my time" posting about something I hate. I'm posting about something I love (DT), and I'm answering the specific question posed by the OP. It seems to me that since you don't agree with my opinion, you feel justified in calling me out twice in this thread for having a strong opinion about it, or at least over the way I state it. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm allowed to state said opinion however I like so long as it isn't bashing band members or breaking forum rules. Did I break an unspoken "Blob" rule of which I'm unaware? I'm happy to take it up with you on PM, but you felt free to bash me for it publicly, so here we are. Fact is, this is the EXACT appropriate place to air my opinion, since SC and specifically TMOLS is IMO the epitome of what was wrong with DT during this era, and EXACTLY keeping with the topic of the thread.  I didn't go looking for a thread to purposely troll SC or TMOLS; we're already discussing it. What did I do wrong (since you feel the need to call me out on it publicly)? Again, not trying to stir shit, just feel like you're being a bit of a bully since you didn't get a humorous post that most others apparently did, or simply didn't agree with it. 

Hey, I'm all for humour, but I just didn't see much actual humour there. Excess is not a form of humour in itself. In fact, calling something bullshit is just blatant bashing, and I should have just reported it and moved along instead of thinking I could bring it up to you and have you realize you're not taking a good approach to expressing a negative opinion respectfully.
Look at robwebster's posts. That guy could write a post saying that ACOS is the worst song ever written and that he slept with your mother in your own bed while laughing at your high school photos, and you'd thank him for it and call it post of the year. He's like the textual equivalent of Morgan Freeman. Or Avery Brooks. Or basically any other black actor. Take notes. I know I do.

[orcus116]

This thread is awesome.

[WildeSilas]

I used the word "bullshit" in the context of an excessive opinion. It was bullshit in the sense that it all seemed disengenuious to me. That's not bashing, that's stating why I thought it was bad. Profanity doesn't auto render it "bashing." But I take your point. Conversely, I hope you realize that most everyone else posting here got the joke except for you and rob, who you consider the model of funny. Just sayin'

[Jaffa]

This thread is awesome.

[Zook]

ITPOE PT. 1: Still kicks ass. Prelude is all kinds of awesome.

Forsaken: I like the song. It's not great, but it isn't bad.

Constant Motion: The only thing I really don't like is the chorus. It's a tad boring. The rest of the song is pretty cool, I guess, Metallica wannabe or not.

TDEN: I always liked the song. There's really nothing wrong with it, although Blob's version is the best them.

Repentance: Nothing wrong here either. Good slow song with a kick ass solo. The second half doesn't bother me at all.

Prophets of War: Fuck this song.

TMOLS: It's just a longer, slower not as good version of Endless Sacrifice, but I have no real quarrels with this song. I like the instrumental section, even if it's completely out of place.

ITPOE PT. 2: Besides the dark master section, this song isn't bad. I like The Reckoning and stuff.

ANTR: I've tried and tried to edit this song to remove that atrocious DAY AFTER DAY nonsense, but to no avail, so screw it. Everything up until after the beautiful agony part was a good listen, but now I'm just bored of it.

AROP: Just kinda boring, especially the chorus. Good solo section though... minus the bebot...

Wither: Eh, it's just kinda there. I'd like it more if Petrucci didn't rip off Queen so blatantly.

The Shattered Fortress: The second half kinda drags it down, but this song is awesome. I like the "cut and paste" style of the song. It wraps up the suite nicely.

TBOT: MEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHH

TCOT: Still awesome. The intro and outro being the best part of the whole thing, but I have no problem with the goofy lyrics ,and love singing along to them.

[BlobVanDam]

I used the word "bullshit" in the context of an excessive opinion. It was bullshit in the sense that it all seemed disengenuious to me. That's not bashing, that's stating why I thought it was bad. Profanity doesn't auto render it "bashing." But I take your point. Conversely, I hope you realize that most everyone else posting here got the joke except for you and rob, who you consider the model of funny. Just sayin'

You are completely confusing intentionally disrespectful and harsh opinion with humour. If your opinion is expressed excessively to the point where you are calling DT's work bullshit, then you're well beyond just expressing an opinion, you're just insulting the band, in "context" or not. I don't know where you got your wires crossed there.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

This is bullshit guys.

[orcus116]

I would've loved to see Blob's non-reaction had the same exact thing said about Awake or Scarred.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Your face is bullshit, orcus.

[BlobVanDam]

I would've loved to see Blob's non-reaction had the same exact thing said about Awake or Scarred.

Probably the same as your non-reaction for the fact this is about an SC track. The irony.

[orcus116]

I'm talking about how you're reacting to the tone of this statement, not the actual opinion. Yeah we have our stances we'd defend as far as the opinion goes but I'm not going to go scold someone for using stronger, harsher, less family friendly wordage, especially one that after reading a few sentences was just basking in its own ridiculousness.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm talking about how you're reacting to the tone of this statement, not the actual opinion. Yeah we have our stances we'd defend as far as the opinion goes but I'm not going to go scold someone for using stronger, harsher, less family friendly wordage, especially one that after reading a few sentences was just basking in its own ridiculousness.

Well next time an Awake thread comes up, I'll keep this incident in mind and make a similar post, and we'll see if people are so equally open to it based on intended "humour".

[Jaffa]

I'm talking about how you're reacting to the tone of this statement, not the actual opinion. Yeah we have our stances we'd defend as far as the opinion goes but I'm not going to go scold someone for using stronger, harsher, less family friendly wordage, especially one that after reading a few sentences was just basking in its own ridiculousness.

Well next time an Awake thread comes up, I'll keep this incident in mind and make a similar post, and we'll see if people are so equally open to it based on intended "humour".

Be sure to use the word 'suck' a hundred times or so. 

[BlobVanDam]

I'm talking about how you're reacting to the tone of this statement, not the actual opinion. Yeah we have our stances we'd defend as far as the opinion goes but I'm not going to go scold someone for using stronger, harsher, less family friendly wordage, especially one that after reading a few sentences was just basking in its own ridiculousness.

Well next time an Awake thread comes up, I'll keep this incident in mind and make a similar post, and we'll see if people are so equally open to it based on intended "humour".

Be sure to use the word 'suck' a hundred times or so. 

Only if I can put them in all caps.

[orcus116]

I'll make sure to keep a few beers around to cry into as I read it.

[Jaffa]

Tempted to make an Awake thread just to see this. 

[WildeSilas]

Well, at least we can disagree civilly. If you reread the post, the word bullshit was not used to describe their specific work, rather the lyric/image tone the band was striving for during this era. It was not fitting for them, thus, bullshit, as in, not honest. Coming full circle, it seemed forced and uncharacterstic for JP to write lyrics like TMOLS. Let me say it another way: DT was attempting, for whatever reason, to be more aggressive and "metal" in their lyrics and image. I call bullshit. They have that side, but it's always been balanced by the more proggy Yes/Genesis side. It got out of balance. So when I hear JLB singing about zombies, distorted vocals, and death metal growls, I call bullshit. This is not the type of band they are, and attempts to morph into such appeared to me as bullshit, TMOLS being the worst offender with it's tacked on, bored instrumental section and deuling JP and JR. Is that a better way to say it? (I'm not baiting you, I'm honestly asking because I think my intention is still not being understood).

[BlobVanDam]

Well, at least we can disagree civilly. If you reread the post, the word bullshit was not used to describe their specific work, rather the lyric/image tone the band was striving for during this era. It was not fitting for them, thus, bullshit, as in, not honest. Coming full circle, it seemed forced and uncharacterstic for JP to write lyrics like TMOLS. Let me say it another way: DT was attempting, for whatever reason, to be more aggressive and "metal" in their lyrics and image. I call bullshit. They have that side, but it's always been balanced by the more proggy Yes/Genesis side. It got out of balance. So when I hear JLB singing about zombies, distorted vocals, and death metal growls, I call bullshit. This is not the type of band they are, and attempts to morph into such appeared to me as bullshit, TMOLS being the worst offender with it's tacked on, bored instrumental section and deuling JP and JR. Is that a better way to say it? (I'm not baiting you, I'm honestly asking because I think my intention is still not being understood).

I understand that completely. The way it was initially worded makes it sound like bullshit was just blanket insulting the lyrics for what they were, rather than just for their intent, especially with the way your wrote dark master etc, at least it appeared that way to me. Had you mentioned it was in the context of not feeling honest from the start, then it would have made more sense to me. I think in going for an extreme opinion, the exact intent of your post was lost in the extremity. Does that make sense?

[Zook]

Sooo, how 'bout that typo in the thread title?

[manticore999]

First of all, it's nearly universally agreed upon that Count of Tuscany is a top 20 DT song. And many people consider Nightmare to be in that realm as well. So right there, half of the album is high quality music that compares to the very best of  ....

But... if you like the "classic" DT songs, how can you dislike ItPoE?

Not universal, as far as I'm concerned, anyway. TCOT and ANTR are simply god-awful songs. Just painful to listen to.

I'll agree with part 1 of ITPOE, but part two was not up to the same level of quality. i even somewhat like Foresaken.  The rest of the album is a 'must miss'.

[orcus116]

Part 1 is quite good. Strange that Part 2 just doesn't seem to live up it unless they really didn't write the song as one whole song.

[robwebster]

Part 1 is quite good. Strange that Part 2 just doesn't seem to live up it unless they really didn't write the song as one whole song.

Yep - I genuinely think that Part 1 would be better off for being a separate song. Just call the whole thing Resurrection, named after the bit of it with lyrics.

Likewise, Heretic in Part 2. It'd be a nice middle-of-the-album song, track five or so. Then they could use the Grand Finale as a sort of end-credits piece which, while it reflects Part 1 musically, isn't technically a partner, and works as its own little suffix to the album.

[WildeSilas]

Well, at least we can disagree civilly. If you reread the post, the word bullshit was not used to describe their specific work, rather the lyric/image tone the band was striving for during this era. It was not fitting for them, thus, bullshit, as in, not honest. Coming full circle, it seemed forced and uncharacterstic for JP to write lyrics like TMOLS. Let me say it another way: DT was attempting, for whatever reason, to be more aggressive and "metal" in their lyrics and image. I call bullshit. They have that side, but it's always been balanced by the more proggy Yes/Genesis side. It got out of balance. So when I hear JLB singing about zombies, distorted vocals, and death metal growls, I call bullshit. This is not the type of band they are, and attempts to morph into such appeared to me as bullshit, TMOLS being the worst offender with it's tacked on, bored instrumental section and deuling JP and JR. Is that a better way to say it? (I'm not baiting you, I'm honestly asking because I think my intention is still not being understood).

I understand that completely. The way it was initially worded makes it sound like bullshit was just blanket insulting the lyrics for what they were, rather than just for their intent, especially with the way your wrote dark master etc, at least it appeared that way to me. Had you mentioned it was in the context of not feeling honest from the start, then it would have made more sense to me. I think in going for an extreme opinion, the exact intent of your post was lost in the extremity. Does that make sense?

Okay, got a PM that I was temp-banned, so not sure if this will post.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I think I sorely under-estimated some people's satire detectors, at best. I hope I've clarified the initial post. In fairness, I did say:

I think it was done consciously so as to fit in with the types of bands on a label like RR. It begs the question, why was DT trying to "fit in" with any of these fucktard, scream-o, Sepultura wannabe bands in the first place?

which I thought sufficed to explain that it was an unnatural/dishonest/i.e."bullshit" move on their part. Either way, the intent of my post was to state emphatically with a bit of over the top humor, why SC and BCSL deserve the ire of many fans. If it was lost in translation, I guess it's my bad. 

On topic: Does it bother any of you that band members have come back after the fact and basically said, "Yeah, we didn't really want to do some of that stuff?" For me personally, it undercuts the integrity DT demonstrated from the beginning with their music a bit. I felt justified in my dislike of these two albums when I heard these comments because I felt when I first heard them both that something wasn't right - that it was forced and uncomfortable, especially for JR and JLB. It made it hard to take the songs very seriously and invest in them to a large degree.

[hefdaddy42]

The fireworks can stop now.