The two must underrated albums I've ever known: SC and BC&SL.

[XB0BX]

For some reason, everyone in the DT community, and internet community in general, hates these albums. With a passion. I read a lot of posts about how people stopped loving DT during this time period, and how the albums are complete crap, with no listenable songs. I just don't understand what these people are thinking.

First of all, it's nearly universally agreed upon that Count of Tuscany is a top 20 DT song. And many people consider Nightmare to be in that realm as well. So right there, half of the album is high quality music that compares to the very best of DT's catelogue. The singles from the album are great in my mind, but even if you don't like them, you should probably like The Shattered Fortress, since everyone loves the riffs and melodies that are presented within. If you consider the song for what it is, it's a success. So all that considered, what exactly do you guys hate about BC&SL?

And I'm even more confused about Systematic Chaos. Now, I think I come from a different background from many (most) of you, since SC was my first DT album, not one of the 90's or early 00's ones, and also because I love metal, modern (ish) music, and all the "bad" influences that Portnoy was intent on placing in the recent albums. So I naturally love the album, but I can understand on the surface why some of you would disagree with me, since you come from a different background.

But... if you like the "classic" DT songs, how can you dislike ItPoE? And that right there constitutes a third of the album, so we're off to a phenomenal start in my mind. As I said earlier, some of you come from a different background, so you might not like the straight forward metal of Dark Eternal Night and Constant Motion. But I've heard from some of you on the internet that you like the sound of metal, and just think the songs themselves suck. I don't understand that. At all. Both songs have killer riffs, melodies and choruses that have stuck in my head since I first heard the songs.

You guys don't like Repentance? I mean, we all have different opinions, but I personally LOVE that song and think every second is beautiful and mesmerizing. Same with Forsaken. I don't understand why some of you count that among your LEAST favorite DT songs. That chorus is catchy and brilliant, in my mind.

None of these songs on these 2 albums are bland, which is the worst thing you can accuse music of being. So I guess it's possible that 99% of the DT fanbase simply has a different opinion from me regarding this time in DT's music, but I don't get it. I think these 2 albums have some of the most memorable songs the band has ever released.

[johncal]

I don't hate them. I just don't think it's theit best work. Not nearly as good as ADTOE, (which i think is their best ever) IMO. I've listened to them till the laser burned a hole in them and still listen to them once in a while laser burns and all, so I still they're really good. I just don't think as a whole they are like I&W, SFAM, SDOIT, and ADTOE. To me THOSE are the heavy hitters.

[Zook]

Systematic Chaos minus Prophets of Fail is an enjoyable listen.

The Shattered Fortress and The Count Of Tuscany are the only songs I care to listen to from Black Clouds.

[toro]

TCOT is awesome but the lyrics are horrible thats why people wont rank it high.
ANTR has a cool section and thats it, its dreadful, uninspired and kind of boring lol RORORO
If anything I would take Wither over ANTR

TSF is ind of cool but it gets really boring but the solo is awesome.

ITPOE is not "Classic DT" The first part well kind of, the second part is everything that was wrong with DT: to long, went nowhere, The Reckoning, to much "balls" and ham fisted metal.
And don't get me started on TMOLS A.K.A "Lets play a song with a calm verse and shit and then BAM lets surprise them with a Instrumental section"

The Rest of the album is ok I love Repentance and ITPOE part 1, then the other ones are... well, listenable. Except Forsken fuck that song.

Yes the albums are regarded as bland because as I said, they were really uninspired and too safe(In the metal side of things)
The only song I consider near top 20 from those 2 albums is TCOT.

[Jaffa]

First of all, not everyone on the DT community hates these albums with a passion - that's a big overgeneralization.  Second of all, not everyone considers The Count of Tuscany to be top 20 material - some people even consider it a least favorite, though that's most frequently an issue of lyrics more than anything else.  A Nightmare To Remember is even less universally praised - some people consider it a mess of a song, or three songs poorly strung together.  Third of all, just because someone hates Systematic Chaos does not necessarily mean they hate ItPoE - a lot of people love that song, or at least part one of it.  But an album that is, as you put it, one third good, is not necessarily a good album. 

Everything else you said just comes down to a matter of opinion. 

[wolfking]

If you they are the two most underrated albums ever, you need to discover a lot more music.

[XB0BX]

First of all, not everyone on the DT community hates these albums with a passion - that's a big overgeneralization.  Second of all, not everyone considers The Count of Tuscany to be top 20 material - some people even consider it a least favorite, though that's most frequently an issue of lyrics more than anything else.  A Nightmare To Remember is even less universally praised - some people consider it a mess of a song, or three songs poorly strung together.  Third of all, just because someone hates Systematic Chaos does not necessarily mean they hate ItPoE - a lot of people love that song, or at least part one of it.  But an album that is, as you put it, one third good, is not necessarily a good album. 

Everything else you said just comes down to a matter of opinion.

I guess I'll pick my words more closely next time. I colloquially use words like "everyone" to mean "most people." Everyone does that though.

Sorry, most people do that, though.

[Jaffa]

I guess I'll pick my words more closely next time. I colloquially use words like "everyone" to mean "most people." Everyone does that though.

Sorry, most people do that, though.

I'm not trying to nitpick.  It's just that from my perspective, you're completely incorrect.  Your whole post is based on the assumption that the majority of people have a very unfavorable opinion of these albums.  You state directly that a lot of people think these albums have 'no listenable songs.'  In my experience, that's not necessarily the case. 

In my experience, the people who actively hate these albums are a vocal minority.  You'll notice not one person in this thread so far has expressed actual direct hatred for the albums as wholes. 

A lot of people, myself included, consider them to be some of our least favorite DT albums - but that doesn't necessarily mean we hate them.  For my part, I think Dream Theater's worst songs are still pretty damn good songs, so when I say that Black Clouds and Silver Linings is probably my least favorite DT album, that does NOT mean I hate it.  It means they have ten other albums I like more.

A lot of other people tend to view these albums with indifference.  You'll see a lot of comments like, "well, they're okay, but they are just too safe," "they're not bad; they have some good songs and some others I don't really care for," and "I don't really have a problem with them, they just don't do much for me." 

And then there are those who do like or even love these albums. 

Maybe there's a poll somewhere proving my wrong, but from what I have personally seen, fewer people HATE these albums than you seem to think. 

Update: As of this update, in this thread, 25 different people have expressed opinions about these albums.  Of those, I count five replies expressing clearly negative opinions.  That’s 20%.  The rest have expressed opinions ranging from ‘love them’ to ‘great’ to ‘great but flawed’ to ‘okay but nothing outstanding’ to ‘not very good but not bad, either.’  So, taking this thread as a representation of the DTF opinion, only 20% of people actually have a largely negative opinion of these albums. 

[The Letter M]

It disturbs me how often people think "least favorite" = "hated". Just because I think a song or an album isn't that great in the grand scheme of things, and is my least favorite, doesn't mean I hate it. I may not listen to it often, but I still enjoy it.

As for these two albums in particular, SC took a bit of warming up to, as it was a bit of a contrast to the previous album. They had got heavier in some places (CM, TDEN, much of ITPOE), and went to new directions in others (POW and "Repentance"). I think SC has some GREAT tracks (ITPOE and TMOLS), some pretty good tracks ("Repentance", TDEN, and CM), and a couple good/okay tracks (POW and "Forsaken"), but nothing I would out-right hate.

And as for BC&SL, I'll be honest - I pretty much loved it when it came out, and it quickly became my most played album of 2009 (until Transatlantic released The Whirlwind a half-year later). It had long songs with some great playing, some awesome heavy stuff, some fantastic proggy stuff, and a couple shorter tracks as well. For me, it sort of combined elements of their previous two albums and meshed them into something new and different, but nothing worth hating. I did (and still do) skip AROP a bit, perhaps as I got burned out on it from being the first single, but I love "Wither", and 90% of ANTR. The last three tracks on the album are all pretty damn good - TSF was a pretty proper ending to The Twelve-Step Suite, TBOT had some of the most emotionally moving music I had heard from DT in awhile, and TCOT was just all sorts of epic.

When compared to ADTOE, I think my first impressions of these two albums were marginally similar - didn't hate it, loved most of it, but as time went on, appreciation grew. ADTOE was slightly more loved at first, but I don't think the previous two albums were bad in anyway. Sure, they were different, but if DT came out with the same album over and over again, I don't think I'd be a fan any more.

-Marc.

[darkshade]

Ive found that if I omit 'A Rite of Passage' from the BC&SL track list, the album becomes a 5 star album for me. I like AROP, but I feel it disrupts whatever flow BC&SL has.

Same thing with 'Prophets of War' on SC (except I do not like that song)

[reneranucci]

Two of my favorite Dream Theater albums. The good thing about them is that they are enjoyable in many dimensions, they are so varied in style and influences, like a big candy store that has everything on it. They have some of the coolest and most brutal riffs DT has ever written, some of their most emotional songs and delicate melodies, the crazy instrumental sections are there along with the more restrained songwriting and simple instrumentation. If I want to have a blast and headbang in my car I can use those albums, and I can also play them to chill and enjoy a rainy afternoon. And sometimes, all that is present in just one song which takes you to a journey with different landscapes (like ANTR). JR provides outstanding atmosphere in many songs, 4 or 5 stellar Petrucci solos are present, and MP provides some of his most energetic and funny drumming ever.

The albums have their flaws, too, I accept that. They have many lyrical passages that can be considered weak or too rough, and the instrumental sections may not be appealing to many people. But the criticism I've always found unfair and absurd is that they were just repeating themselves and not trying anything new, that they had grown stale and were not the innovative band of the 90s. To me, those albums are some of their most experimental and you can tell they were having fun toying with different ideas. Another piece of bullshit is that they were just repeating a formula with the song structures: if you honestly analyze the songs, you'll find that there are only minimal similarities with other DT songs. Maybe they're not groundbreaking or took their music in a whole different direction, but they are good efforts by musicians that have mastered their art. Just listen to the songs: TDEN, ANTR, Repentance, PoW, TCoT, Forsaken, there is nothing like that in their past catalog. They even experimented a lot with the subject matter of their songs. To me, those albums show the band willing to try different things and just relax and have fun with their music.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

For some reason, everyone in the DT community, and internet community in general, hates these albums. With a passion.

You guys don't like Repentance?

I love these albums. They just fall in the 10 and 11 spots of my list of DT albums.

Repentance is EASILY the best song from Systematic Chaos.

[j]

For some reason, everyone in the DT community, and internet community in general, hates these albums. With a passion. I read a lot of posts about how people stopped loving DT during this time period, and how the albums are complete crap, with no listenable songs. I just don't understand what these people are thinking.

First of all, it's nearly universally agreed upon that Count of Tuscany is a top 20 DT song. And many people consider Nightmare to be in that realm as well.

Que?

As for the rest of your post, I think the consensus is actually that they are flawed albums that still have some great music on them.  Sure there are people who think they're irredeemable garbage, and others who think they're incredible, but I'd say those people are a minority.

For me to consider an *album* "good," it has to have more than 2 or 3 standout individual songs on it.  I think BC&SL and SC both have some good stuff going on, but they are rife with flaws that make them not-very-good albums IMO.  Glad you enjoy them though!

-J

[KevShmev]

I am pretty sure most liked BC&SL, and many were really fond of it, even if it paled in comparison to all of their albums from the 1992-2002 time period, myself included. 

As for SC, it had some good stuff (ITPOE Part I, Repentance and the last five minutes of The Ministry of Lost Souls), but it also has some of the worst stuff the band has ever done (Constant Motion, the lyrics to ITPOE Part II and the chorus to Forsaken). 

[Jamesman42]

I feel like the OP is a troll, and is a prime example of why I rarely visit DT-side anymore.

Talking much in overgeneralizations. I rank both low, though I liked both a lot upon the first month. They're still listenable but I don't really have an urge to listen to them at all.

SC is a very low point in DT's career, and BC&SL improved somewhat but it feels shallow and unsatisfying overall.

ADTOE put DT back on the map, IMHO. MP, again IMHO, was the change needed for DT to become fresh again. I believe he was holding the band back, and his influence on the last two MP'ed records is too much. It's like Daron of SOAD on the last SOAD album, except the output got worse.

[skydivingninja]

Everything else you said just comes down to a matter of opinion.

This.  I don't like SC because I never want to listen to it, and even the songs I used to like (Repentence, ITPOE, Forsaken) I don't like much anymore.  Heck, Forsaken is the only listenable song from that album, IMO.  BC&SL is a big step up, but ANTR, IMO again, is a mess of a song.  Killer 2/3rds, but falls apart after the "beautiful agony" bit.  AROP is interesting in parts, but just okay overall.  The rest of the album is still killer, despite the silly TCOT lyrics.

And if you're going to talk in generalizations, at least get some of them right. BC&SL isn't hated by most DT fans, at least on this forum (as far as I can tell). 

[?]

The only songs I listen to regularly on Chaos are ITPOE 1 (possibly a top 25 song for me) and Forsaken. TMOLS would've benefitted had they pulled a Hell's Kitchen and separated the out-of-place instrumental section - that way there'd be 2 solid songs instead of one with too much length and lack of flow. Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night are ok metal songs that are cool at first but lose their appeal very quickly. The first half of Repentance is good (despite its unoriginality) but once the spoken word starts I press skip. POW is just... not very good.

A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany are great songs, I keep coming back to them often. A Rite of Passage is like CM and TDEN, gets generic after a while. Wither is a nice ballad, The Shattered Fortress has some great stuff but feels a bit too much like a medley of the previous 12SS songs. I find TBOT hard to listen to, it's beautiful but the lyrics are very personal to MP and it makes me feel like an outsider instead of being able to relate to them. I also find the outro solo a bit too long and pretty overrated.

SC is my least favorite DT album and Clouds is my 3rd least favorite. They're not bad but they have been written by a band that has recorded albums like Images, Awake and Scenes, and that's why I (and many others) see these 2 records as underachievements. Many songs have been made too long with out-of-place instrumental sections or repetitiveness. I've also noticed that the more I listen to SC and BC&SL, the more I start to recognise their flaws. This effect is the opposite to the rest of their albums, which grow on me with each listen. My conclusion is, Chaos and Clouds are good albums but subpar DT albums.

Also, this:

If you they are the two most underrated albums ever, you need to discover a lot more music.

[Jamariquay]

I think I dislike the idea of what Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds represent more than the albums themselves. To be fair though, I don't really care for either album that much either.

Well, let's break it down:

The Count Of Tuscany is great.
Wither is great.
In The Presence Of Enemies is mostly good.
Repentance is fine, though I don't think the second half needs to be as long as it is.
I wish The Dark Eternal Night and A Nightmare To Remember both featured JP's original vocal melodies for James, and I wish A Nightmare To Remember wasn't so self-indulgent with the useless soloing.

The Best Of Times is dire. The Ministry Of Lost Souls is dire.

The rest varies between "meh" and "coulda been much better with more time."

Mostly, I just wish that both albums had a longer gestation period. But as they are, both albums sorta represent a period where Dream Theater really didn't sound all that inspired, and kinda bored to be honest. And given that Portnoy has admitted as much since then, I can't really hold either album in very high regard.

[BlobVanDam]

SC and BCASL are definitely underrated here, SC probably more so than BCASL. TDEN is a top 10 for me, and probably ATNR too. TCOT isn't far behind, and has some of DT's best instrumental work. Ever. Because BCASL has such long songs, it suffers more from just the 2 weaker songs (TSF and TBOT imo). SC is really solid though. I'd definitely rank it higher than ADTOE.

I think the main reason they're not as liked here is that the proggier and old-school fans don't appreciate the metal side as much. But when I've seen DT live, where the crowd is balanced with a larger and more accurate cross section of the DT fans, the recent stuff has been extremely well received. TDEN probably had the best reaction of any DT song I've seen.

SC and BCASL both did well for DT, and it's not because the fans hated them.

[MasterLomaxus]

Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos are both in my top five DT albums.   Way she goes.

[02T]

I was disappointed in Octavarium, and I was thrilled with SC.  And I also really liked BC&SL a lot.  Generally liking the Roadrunner era.

[GunsOfThePatriots]

SC is Underated . it's on My Top 3 . ITPOE and TMOLS are Masterpieces

[kirksnosehair]

I am pretty sure most liked BC&SL, and many were really fond of it, even if it paled in comparison to all of their albums from the 1992-2002 time period, myself included. 

As for SC, it had some good stuff (ITPOE Part I, Repentance and the last five minutes of The Ministry of Lost Souls), but it also has some of the worst stuff the band has ever done (Constant Motion, the lyrics to ITPOE Part II and the chorus to Forsaken).

Every word of this.  And I'd add that I'm not too crazy about The Dark Eternal Night either

[Super Dude]

By my reckoning, every track on BC&SL is really weak except Wither and the epic at the end. SC has nothing going for it imo except nostalgia.

Octavarium rocks my socks.

[N4Player]

For what it's worth, these 2 albums were critical in making me the fanatic I am today. BC&SL especially. SC has its weaknesses but I still play it regularly. Dream Theater's rise in popularity has a lot to do with these albums, so there are people out there that love them and probably hold them as the band's benchmark records. Fans attach themselves to certain eras in bands that have long careers and that is perfectly normal. There are some that will hate the post Mike Portnoy era no matter what, that is normal too. The fact people buy the records and support the band constantly says a lot. Pretty special and not a lot of bands can say that of their fans. Despite some rather ridiculous threads and thoughtless posts that are downright disrespectful to the band if you ask me, I am sure that Dream Theater is happy to see that people care enough to post their opinions and analysis on here and will still do it as long as the band keeps going.

[RuRoRul]

I definitely think both albums are underrated (i.e. general reception of them is a lot lower than the amount I like them). Especially on this forum (which I would say tends to favour them a bit less than the fanbase overall), and especially Systematic Chaos.

But whether you like them or not is just a matter of opinion, so just saying how good you think they are isn't going to make everyone on this forum that doesn't like them suddenly change their mind.

I used to rate Systematic Chaos higher than I do, mainly based on the fact that I really like In The Presence Of Enemies and The Ministry Of Lost Souls, and that's more than half the album right there. I think it shares the problem of Octavarium though that the quality of the album as a whole depends so much on one song (or in this case two songs, if you count TMOLS) that take up a huge part of the album, while the rest of the songs aren't so great. That's not to say I don't like the songs on SC or Octavarium, in fact there are no DT songs from SDOIT onwards that I don't like and probably none overall that I "hate" the way some people here seem to. The Dark Eternal Night is very good (although very different to most DT songs) and the rest are all good, but they tend to be lower tier DT songs for me (Repentance is actually my least favourite of the bunch, mainly because it drags towards the end). And over time that fact has made me listen to SC less than other albums with more songs that I really like, so I'd probably have to rate it lower than them (in fact I might even rate Octavarium higher than it now).

Black Clouds And Silver Linings I always thought was one of the better DT albums though, I'd maybe rank it around 4-6 (the same bracket I'd include ADTOE). The Count Of Tuscany is one of my favourite DT songs (I'm not bothered by the lyrics except for the "My brother" section which is rather stupid, but it's not enough to detract from the song too much), and I love The Shattered Fortress and A Nightmare To Remember - all of those songs would probably be top 20 for me. And out of the other three, there are no really "weak" ones - they're hardly among DT's best but I'd say they are average (which is actually good for DT since I don't really dislike any of their songs). Makes for a very consistent album with several standouts and hence is one of my favourites overall.

I do get why some people might have problems with them - not too great lyrics over amazing songs (ANTR, TCOT), too many very long songs so not much variety (BC&SL), songs that aren't just weak but very different in style for DT so likely to be hated more than the weaker songs from other DT albums (SC). I don't fully agree with those points and I definitely don't think they make the albums bad at all, but I understand them. I less understand why less people don't like In The Presence Of Enemies or The Ministry Of Lost Souls compared to similar songs from other eras, which I guess is why I don't understand why SC is recieved so incredibly poorly here compared to the more average-to-good reception of BC&SL I'd expect.

[Pols Voice]

Great song
The Count of Tuscany

Very good songs
In the Presence of Enemies Part I
Repentance
The Ministry of Lost Souls
Wither

Good song
A Nightmare to Remember

Okay songs
Forsaken
The Best of Times

Meh songs
Constant Motion
The Shattered Fortress

Bad songs
In the Presence of Enemies Part II
A Rite of Passage

Terrible songs
The Dark Eternal Night
Prophets of War

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The problem with SC and BC&SL for me is that there's nothing that makes me want to listen to them. It's not so much that they're filled with cringe-worthy moments; it's more so that there's an absence of good.

[KevShmev]

ADTOE put DT back on the map, IMHO. MP, again IMHO, was the change needed for DT to become fresh again. I believe he was holding the band back, and his influence on the last two MP'ed records is too much. It's like Daron of SOAD on the last SOAD album, except the output got worse.

I don't know SOAD well enough to agree with that, but I agree with your general sentiment.  I have said it before: ADTOE sounds like a band again with everything sounding like it did back in the 90s, rather than the personality of one person almost overtaking the band far too often.  Don't get me wrong, every DT album has great music on it, but on the more recent albums, there was a problem with that great music being immediately surrounded by something that screamed, "Heeeeeeeere's Portnoy!" - the "day after day" section in A Nightmare to Remember, the chorus in the first half of The Count of Tuscany, the spoken word section of Prophets of War, him insisting on singing in the chorus of Constant Motion and the verses of The Dark Eternal Night, etc.  All of that stuff is now gone, and it once again sounds like every member of the band is doing what they should be doing - no more, no less - to make the band perform at the highest level. 

[theseoafs]

First of all, these albums are not nearly as underrated as you take them to be. Among the casual DT fans (i.e. not the ones who hang out around this board), those were very popular and well-received albums. If you take the opinions on this board to be representative of the entire DT fanbase (which they aren't), then I could see why you would find them to be underrated, but even on this board, not "everyone" "hates these albums". That's ridiculous.

Now, I'm speaking as someone who dislikes these albums more than most of the people here, so here's my defense of that dislike.

It's not because I dislike metal/modernish/Portnoyish music that I don't like SC and BCSL.  I love metal and modern music. I find myself listening to more modern music than classic music lately.  I don't label the music I listen to; I just listen to it.  And I just find these two albums, for the most part, to be comparatively lacking in good music (the former being a greater offender than the latter).

I have to like The Shattered Fortress, you claim, because I like the riffs and melodies compared therein.  That's true; I liked the riffs and melodies when I heard them in their original songs. All these musical ideas were great the first time I heard them but as it is The Shattered Fortress is a complete mess. Would it have killed them to include a single original musical idea?  As it stands, we have a confused song that could not stand on its own without relying on the 40 minutes of music that came before it, and without the context, I couldn't see myself liking it.  There's more to a song than "riffs and melodies", and random riffs and melodies are all TSF offers.

I'm forbidden from disliking ITPOE because I like classic DT.  This is a fallacy if I ever saw one.  If classic DT = Images and Words and Scenes from a Memory, then I do indeed like classic DT, but ITPOE has none of what makes that DT great.  There are no really impressive or powerful ideas like "classic DT" has.  The main theme is just silly, the instrumental section is one of their worst, and, even worse, they take absolutely no risks whatsoever.  DT wrote it in for this one.  Talk about Dream Theater on overdrive; this is a 26-minute song without any compelling artistic concept to drive it. Instead, the idea is "we need like 5 or 6 movements, so let's write 5 or 6 songs, and make sure to reprise a theme or two once or twice".

You call TDEN and Constant Motion "straightforward metal". It's not the fact that they're too metal that puts me off about these songs; it's just that there's nothing really great about them. They're just generic metal DT songs. Even if the choruses and riffs are catchy, catchiness =/= goodness. To call a song good, I feel like it has to have some depth, and these songs are simply shallow. Same with Forsaken; it's generic and boring.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I hate this idea that some have that people hate on TDEN or CM just because they are metal, like some of us can't handle or appreciate metal tunes, even straight-forward ones.  That is bogus.

[Jamesman42]

I think CM and TDEN are the better songs on SC. When you have turds like Forsaken, PoW and TMOLS, it ain't hard to be a better song on that album.

[manticore999]

Count me as someone who didn't like either album. I always think of ANTR and TCOT as comedy songs - so bad that I can't stop laughing at them. Totally unlistenable. At least they got back on track with the new album.

[Tomislav95]

I don't like CM and TDEN because that songs doesn't sound like DT and I can't enjoy. But I like Forsaken, PoW, Repentance and especially ITPOE and TMOLS. I like BC&SL linings, too. TCOT is kller song. ANTR and Wither are great. TSF is IMO most boring song of 12-step suite but still enjoyable.
I'm wondering why you hate TMOLS

[orcus116]

But... if you like the "classic" DT songs, how can you dislike ItPoE?

Easy. What people would consider "classic DT" and the DT that wrote ITPOE are two bands with completely different mindsets when it comes to songwriting. It's not even close. I do agree on Repentence, though.