About 12,000 people were killed in the Mexican Drug War in 2011

[GuineaPig]

Although some estimates go as high as 16,000.


Can we legalize marijuana now?  Please?

It's so colossally stupid.

[kári]

Pretty sure those are not over marijuana.

[Implode]

Pretty sure those are not over marijuana.

[GuineaPig]

Marijuana makes up 50% of the cartels' revenues.  The majority of the violence is fighting for control between the various cartels over the supply lines to the biggest market in the world.  If marijuana was legalized, the need for import - and most importantly, illegal import - would end, and so would the biggest revenue stream for the cartels.  Weed is what has made them so powerful.

[kári]

Hmm. I was under the impression that it was mainly to move cocaine and heroin from south america into the US.

[El Barto]

It's to move everything.  This is a territorial battle.  However,  marijuana is Mexican,  as opposed to coca and opium,  which factors into the whole deal.  It's also the most popular of their products.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit if it made up 50% of their revenue.  I agree with GP on this.  Legalizing pot would be a serious blow to the cartels.  It certainly wouldn't end them,  but it'd even the playing field quite a bit. 

[Omega]

I take more issue with the US gov's treatment of the Mexican gov on this issue. The US gov economically pressures Mexico into launching a pointless and bloody war with drug cartels while the US society / gov consumes even more drugs than ever and provides the drug cartels an unlimited amount of money and weapons. Then the media portrays the whole situation as Mexicans being completely responsible for the drug dilemma in the first place and then emotionally ponders why Mexico is "forcing" all these "unwanted drugs" into the lives and society of "innocent" Americans.

People need to wake up and realize that this is not a problem caused solely by Mexico. The US creates the biggest demand for drugs on this planet and Mexico, eternally cursed for being the US's neighbor, supplies the drugs to the US. If I was President of Mexico, I would declare a truce with the cartels, organize a meeting with all the drug capos and establish routes for each cartel to take drugs into the US, unhindered by police as long as the violence stops. The cartels get what they want - profit, and the gov gets what it wants: an end to violence (hopefully). I'd then tell the President of the US to either somehow curb the demand for drugs in the US or to go fuck himself and figure out how he's gonna deal with the problems in his own country.

[El Barto]

I take more issue with the US gov's treatment of the Mexican gov on this issue. The US gov economically pressures Mexico into launching a pointless and bloody war with drug cartels while the US society / gov consumes even more drugs than ever and provides the drug cartels an unlimited amount of money and weapons. Then the media portrays the whole situation as Mexicans being completely responsible for the drug dilemma in the first place and then emotionally ponders why Mexico is "forcing" all these "unwanted drugs" into the lives and society of "innocent" Americans.

People need to wake up and realize that this is not a problem caused solely by Mexico. The US creates the biggest demand for drugs on this planet and Mexico, eternally cursed for being the US's neighbor, supplies the drugs to the US. If I was President of Mexico, I would declare a truce with the cartels, organize a meeting with all the drug capos and establish routes for each cartel to take drugs into the US, unhindered by police as long as the violence stops. The cartels get what they want - profit, and the gov gets what it wants: an end to violence (hopefully). I'd then tell the President of the US to either somehow curb the demand for drugs in the US or to go fuck himself and figure out how he's gonna deal with the problems in his own country.

I agree.  The Mexicans have no reason to give a rat's ass about Americans doing dope.   Unfortunately,  I believe the Mexicans are quite dependent upon us for trade elsewhere,  and Uncle Sammy would close that down out of spite.  They'd be giving up the right to sell us avocados,  in exchange for giving the cartels all the profit they want. 

Another interesting corollary is that US drug policy insures that most grass comes from Mexico, rather than here.  I,  like many others,  would be absolutely thrilled to be growing my own high quality smoke.  Cheap,  easy,  and a helluva lot better than commercial.  Unfortunately,  the legal risk is far too great.  Weighing the risks,  getting bags from Pedro has always been safer than cutting him out.  I get popped driving back from his house and either I get a ticket,  or the cop "confiscates" my dope and lets me go.  Grow a plant in your closet and you've done moved into felony town. 

[Omega]

Equally as disturbing to me is the utter dependency Americans have on drugs and alcohol. If you think about it and its impacts on society, it really is worrisome.

[Sigz]

What dependency?

[Omega]

What dependency?

The societal and cultural one in which rarely does any American through the course of his or her life not come to abuse drugs or alcohol. A culture in which the consumption of drugs and alcohol is encouraged and commonplace; a culture in which non-drug or alcohol consumers are excluded form higher social circles or norms.  Social encounters and interactions almost cannot sustain themselves without consumption of a mind or mood-altering substance.

[Gadough]

I remember getting into an argument with my history teacher in 12th grade about all this. She is really old-fashioned, so of course, 100% against legalization of drugs. Her argument was "it's bad for you, and people know that, and they know they're supporting cartels when they buy drugs, so if people would just stop doing drugs the cartels would lose their power."

Yeah, no shit. That'd be ideal. But it's not going to happen. I wonder if that teacher really thinks drug addicts give a shit about all the violence, death, etc? Anyone who thinks drug use is just going to stop because people all of a sudden think "wow this is bad, and the impacts on society are terrible" is completely naive. It's so fucking stupid. It needs to be legalized and regulated, because people are not going to stop doing drugs either way. Might as well save lives and make the best of a bad situation.

[jsem]

Just legalizing marijuana isn't going to be enough. It's just one step.

Think of the lives that could be saved if all drugs are just legalized. It'd make it SO much easier to reach out to the addicts, we'd lose all this crazy violence.

[King Postwhore]

Just legalizing marijuana isn't going to be enough. It's just one step.

Think of the lives that could be saved if all drugs are just legalized. It'd make it SO much easier to reach out to the addicts, we'd lose all this crazy violence.

What would the addicts do about getting money when it's legal.  There's no one solution to it really.  But it is a part.

[jsem]

Just legalizing marijuana isn't going to be enough. It's just one step.

Think of the lives that could be saved if all drugs are just legalized. It'd make it SO much easier to reach out to the addicts, we'd lose all this crazy violence.

What would the addicts do about getting money when it's legal.  There's no one solution to it really.  But it is a part.

Yeah, of course it's not going to be perfect. But if you look at Portuguese statistics, drug usage has gone down since the full legalization of hard drugs. I don't know why, perhaps one might say that it doesn't have to be the case in other countries - but they're setting a good example.

Addicts are still going to be involved in crime to attain drugs, but the crime involved in the distribution and sale of drugs will DRAMATICALLY decrease. Plus, it's going to be MUCH easier to reach out the addicts if they don't have to live in fear of the authorities looking for drug possession charges as well as just getting the next fix. I'd also argue the case that drug usage would be a lot cleaner, you could go get it at a store, safer and everything - you wouldn't have diseases spreading with used needles and stuff as much.

[Scheavo]

What dependency?

The societal and cultural one in which rarely does any American through the course of his or her life not come to abuse drugs or alcohol. A culture in which the consumption of drugs and alcohol is encouraged and commonplace; a culture in which non-drug or alcohol consumers are excluded form higher social circles or norms. 

I don't know why you think it's something unique to the US. People have been taking mind-altering substances from the moment they came into contact with such mind-altering substances. More people are simply able to in the US, so they do.

Social encounters and interactions almost cannot sustain themselves without consumption of a mind or mood-altering substance.

I think this sentence is completely accurate... but I would be using it for the opposite position.

End all outright illegalization of all drugs. People who really want to do drugs, mostly already do; funneling any money to criminal organization is a harmful, forget stupid thing to do (50% of the revenue is STILL a lot of revenue for a cartel, so it still means a lot of people are going to die). More people die each year to prescription painkillers than to heroin or cocaine combined; and hallucinogens (especially mushrooms) have been shown to promote neuron growth, promote happiness (a % increasing with time), and their legalization would probably mean safer use/more controlled usage. Treat problem addicts with classes and education to help them quit (if they want it). I'd say let marijuana and hallucinogens be purchasable by adults, let the rest be prescription "medicine," and let doctors and patients decide what to take (seeing as how we make synthetic versions anyways).

What would the addicts do about getting money when it's legal.  There's no one solution to it really.  But it is a part.

The same as they do now to get money. And still, if you wanna compare petty theft to organized crime and violence, then I'm all for that discussion.

[El Barto]

Just legalizing marijuana isn't going to be enough. It's just one step.

Think of the lives that could be saved if all drugs are just legalized. It'd make it SO much easier to reach out to the addicts, we'd lose all this crazy violence.

What would the addicts do about getting money when it's legal.  There's no one solution to it really.  But it is a part.

Aside from what Scheavo said,  there's the fact that legalization would bring drug prices way down.  As much as Phillip Morris might want to charge current prices for a bag of grass,  the market wouldn't support it.  Prices are what they are because of prohibition,  and remove that,  we're just talking about vegetables.  If you've ever talked to anybody in the drug trade,  they'll all tell you that legalization would be the single worst thing that could happen to them. 

[Omega]

What dependency?

The societal and cultural one in which rarely does any American through the course of his or her life not come to abuse drugs or alcohol. A culture in which the consumption of drugs and alcohol is encouraged and commonplace; a culture in which non-drug or alcohol consumers are excluded form higher social circles or norms. 

I don't know why you think it's something unique to the US. People have been taking mind-altering substances from the moment they came into contact with such mind-altering substances. More people are simply able to in the US, so they do.

I don't at all think its unique to the US. It is merely very much so more present and noxious in the US than in many other countries. It is also entirely possible that other countries may possibly be worse in this regard.

Social encounters and interactions almost cannot sustain themselves without consumption of a mind or mood-altering substance.

I think this sentence is completely accurate... but I would be using it for the opposite position.

End all outright illegalization of all drugs. People who really want to do drugs, mostly already do; funneling any money to criminal organization is a harmful, forget stupid thing to do (50% of the revenue is STILL a lot of revenue for a cartel, so it still means a lot of people are going to die). More people die each year to prescription painkillers than to heroin or cocaine combined; and hallucinogens (especially mushrooms) have been shown to promote neuron growth, promote happiness (a % increasing with time), and their legalization would probably mean safer use/more controlled usage. Treat problem addicts with classes and education to help them quit (if they want it). I'd say let marijuana and hallucinogens be purchasable by adults, let the rest be prescription "medicine," and let doctors and patients decide what to take (seeing as how we make synthetic versions anyways).

I actually (with much reserve and caution) favor the legalization of marijuana. But draw the line there; dangerously addictive and/or dangerously pernicious substances such as meth, cocaine, heroine, etc should remain illegal.

[Scheavo]

The degree to which those are dangerous is completely hyped up, and usually lacking any context for proper evaluation. We give away prescriptions for worse chemicals.

I could settle for decriminalization for 'harder' drugs, we should not be throwing people in jail for using heroin.

[King Postwhore]

Just legalizing marijuana isn't going to be enough. It's just one step.

Think of the lives that could be saved if all drugs are just legalized. It'd make it SO much easier to reach out to the addicts, we'd lose all this crazy violence.

What would the addicts do about getting money when it's legal.  There's no one solution to it really.  But it is a part.

Aside from what Scheavo said,  there's the fact that legalization would bring drug prices way down.  As much as Phillip Morris might want to charge current prices for a bag of grass,  the market wouldn't support it.  Prices are what they are because of prohibition,  and remove that,  we're just talking about vegetables.  If you've ever talked to anybody in the drug trade,  they'll all tell you that legalization would be the single worst thing that could happen to them.

No I get that.  I just had a mindset that a addict would still steal to get a legal fix but you and Scheavo are right.

[7thHanyou]

What dependency?

The societal and cultural one in which rarely does any American through the course of his or her life not come to abuse drugs or alcohol. A culture in which the consumption of drugs and alcohol is encouraged and commonplace; a culture in which non-drug or alcohol consumers are excluded form higher social circles or norms.  Social encounters and interactions almost cannot sustain themselves without consumption of a mind or mood-altering substance.

As someone who hasn't used (illegal) drugs or alcohol once in 25 years, I haven't seen this at all.  People are perfectly fine with me doing what I want.  Drug abuse is actively discouraged, in fact, and alcohol abuse certainly isn't encouraged.

Do I live in a different world, or do I simply need a few more years under my belt?  I assume I've already been through the most potentially volatile.

[Scheavo]

I don't at all think its unique to the US. It is merely very much so more present and noxious in the US than in many other countries. It is also entirely possible that other countries may possibly be worse in this regard.

I just think the reasons are deeply human, and are more reflective of other social problems we have in this country, and not the actual use of drugs. Drugs are a symptom of a deeper problem, if anything, not a problem in and of themselves.

[El Barto]

It would appear that people in this thread aren't able to differentiate between drug/alcohol use and and drug/alcohol abuse. 

[7thHanyou]

It would appear that people in this thread aren't able to differentiate between drug/alcohol use and and drug/alcohol abuse.

Oh, is that what people are saying?  Because I find it hard to believe that Americans "rarely" refrain from abusing drugs.  That was quite an incredible statement.

[Omega]

I don't at all think its unique to the US. It is merely very much so more present and noxious in the US than in many other countries. It is also entirely possible that other countries may possibly be worse in this regard.

I just think the reasons are deeply human, and are more reflective of other social problems we have in this country, and not the actual use of drugs. Drugs are a symptom of a deeper problem, if anything, not a problem in and of themselves.

I would agree. At risk of getting asked what the ideal parenting situation would be to solve "all of the world's problems" or something along that regard, I would have to say that the parenting or lack thereof in the US is greatly to blame for many of the blemishes and underlying problems we experience in society today.

[snapple]

I guess I'll open up about my past a little bit and this topic.

Legalization would KILL a lot of drug dealers. From when I was 12-16 years old, I used to help some guys sell weed up here. The market here was pretty small and I helped "grow" it. At least up where I live, weed is essentially the only big market drug. It probably takes up 75-80% of the drug market up here.

We have a huge Mexican immigrant population in my area, and thus, a lot of weed comes from them. I'm not saying that to be fucking racist, it's just true. We've had the gangs from Detroit try up here, but the market has been, for the most part, pretty cornered. I would take like an 1/8th and they'd say sell it for 20. I'd sell it for 25-30. Ontop if the cut I was making for myself, they'd pay me per ounce I sold (it really depended what kind of shit I was moving). It took them 4 years to catch onto the fact that I was doing this. I was held at knife point and told "If you were 18, you wouldn't be walking anymore". I gave them my money and ran home. I literally made thousands of dollars off of this for four years. Granted, I just bought a SHIT load of weed with it.

So, when I say I'm against it being legalized, I have pretty personal reasons. Yeah, I know it would kill the cartels. I don't know if my guys were in the cartels, I never asked (and why would I?). I just can't stand the idea of it being legal.

Maybe this doesn't relate to the topic too much, but I guess I'm just saying that I have some insider experience that says, yeah, weed is a huge cut.

[Gadough]

You're against it being legalized because you personally made money from it, and placed yourself in serious danger by misusing your position? That doesn't make much sense, but ok.

[jsem]

Snapple, you didn't present any real argument against legalization.

Why can't you stand it being legal? Because major criminal acts would be drastically decreased? Because arguably well over half of inner city homicides would end? Because kids with a possible future on the corners and organized crime would instead perhaps pursue an actual career? Some people are going to get hurt, yes, the ones profiting from the drug trade today. But there would be such net benefits to the society as a whole.

[Scheavo]

I guess I'll open up about my past a little bit and this topic.

Legalization would KILL a lot of drug dealers. From when I was 12-16 years old, I used to help some guys sell weed up here. The market here was pretty small and I helped "grow" it. At least up where I live, weed is essentially the only big market drug. It probably takes up 75-80% of the drug market up here.

We have a huge Mexican immigrant population in my area, and thus, a lot of weed comes from them. I'm not saying that to be fucking racist, it's just true. We've had the gangs from Detroit try up here, but the market has been, for the most part, pretty cornered. I would take like an 1/8th and they'd say sell it for 20. I'd sell it for 25-30. Ontop if the cut I was making for myself, they'd pay me per ounce I sold (it really depended what kind of shit I was moving). It took them 4 years to catch onto the fact that I was doing this. I was held at knife point and told "If you were 18, you wouldn't be walking anymore". I gave them my money and ran home. I literally made thousands of dollars off of this for four years. Granted, I just bought a SHIT load of weed with it.

So, when I say I'm against it being legalized, I have pretty personal reasons. Yeah, I know it would kill the cartels. I don't know if my guys were in the cartels, I never asked (and why would I?). I just can't stand the idea of it being legal.

Maybe this doesn't relate to the topic too much, but I guess I'm just saying that I have some insider experience that says, yeah, weed is a huge cut.

So, becuase it's illegal, you were allowed to put yourself in a horribly bad situation, which could have meant your life. To prevent this from happening to other people, you want to keep it illegal, so that they can be allowed to put themselves in an equally bad situation - instead of making it legal, so that people cant' continue to put themselves in such a bad situation.

The problem you're talking about would maybe occur just after the legalization, but then, would stop from happening. I'd say that's better, way better.

[jasc15]

If drug cartels are dealt a blow by the legalization of their product, do you think they will all get legitimate jobs?  I don't think they really care what the product is they are transporting; they are attracted to the lucrative trade in black market products (whether it's for lack of real opportunities in their countries, or whatever).  Legalization would move drug-trafficking-related violence to illegal arms-trafficking violence, or any number of non regulated markets.

[Sigz]

If drug cartels are dealt a blow by the legalization of their product, do you think they will all get legitimate jobs?  I don't think they really care what the product is they are transporting; they are attracted to the lucrative trade in black market products (whether it's for lack of real opportunities in their countries, or whatever).  Legalization would move drug-trafficking-related violence to illegal arms-trafficking violence, or any number of non regulated markets.

The difference is the demand for those items is nowhere near the level it is for drugs.

[snapple]

If drug cartels are dealt a blow by the legalization of their product, do you think they will all get legitimate jobs?  I don't think they really care what the product is they are transporting; they are attracted to the lucrative trade in black market products (whether it's for lack of real opportunities in their countries, or whatever).  Legalization would move drug-trafficking-related violence to illegal arms-trafficking violence, or any number of non regulated markets.

The difference is the demand for those items is nowhere near the level it is for drugs.

Yup. They're also not going to pour more cocaine into the market right now. They like the price. The demand would have to go up.

My backstory was more about the agreement of legalizing weed would hurt cartels (at least in the short-term). The reasons why I am against it is more because it literally did control my life on every level. I know some people will say "w33d can't be addictive, brah", but it certainly was for me.

[Scheavo]

The reasons why I am against it is more because it literally did control my life on every level. I know some people will say "w33d can't be addictive, brah", but it certainly was for me.

Cigarettes are worse. Soda is worse. Alcohol is worse. I'm a pretty heavy smoker, so I know what you're talking about, but I can stop smoking weed and have no trouble stopping. Caffeine is worse, way worse, and is much harder to stop using. Weed is only psychologically addicting, meaning it doesn't force your body into wanting / needing it more and more.

If drug cartels are dealt a blow by the legalization of their product, do you think they will all get legitimate jobs?  I don't think they really care what the product is they are transporting; they are attracted to the lucrative trade in black market products (whether it's for lack of real opportunities in their countries, or whatever).  Legalization would move drug-trafficking-related violence to illegal arms-trafficking violence, or any number of non regulated markets.

It's not about what they would like to do, either, it's about what they can do. As other points out, the demand has to be there, and coincidentally, arms-trafficking would go down if there weren't the drug cartels, so that wouldn't even be as possible. A lot of them would go get legitimate jobs - if they can find them - becuase they'll have no choice in the matter.