15 year old brings pellet gun to school, gets shot dead by two cops - thoughts?

[snapple]

Did anyone else think of The Outsiders when reading this story?

[7StringedBeast]

No I didn't.

[Dr. DTVT]

Cops were in the right. I see no problems with this.

Stupid kid being stupid

This.  Dumb for bringing it to school, dumb for not listening to the officer.  It's a shame the officers will have to go through a whole bunch of crap because they did their jobs.  I would make a Darwin comment here, but I'm sure you can figure out my thoughts without me explictly stating them.

[YtseBitsySpider]

Just a quick quesion.
How many of you who are so quick give the cops a shiny star for blowing away a child with a pellet gone....have a child?
A lot of really smart people have made really stupid mistakes, and not listened...and in this case...not taken authority seriously.

Hmm..this version has pictures of the Glock looking weapon, and he was running with it. So, while reading a second version has leaned me a bit more towards the police's side here..it's still a terrible situation.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Parents-of-teen-killed-by-police-question-deadly-2444641.php

[lordxizor]

How many of you who are so quick give the cops a shiny star for blowing away a child with a pellet gone....have a child?

I have two kids and I'm on the cops' side (assume the reports of what happened are true). I have no problem with police officers doing what they need to do to protect their own life when a weapon is being pointed at them. I can't imagine a cop would shoot a kid without giving him every opportunity to drop the weapon.

[chknptpie]

Say the cops had only shot the kid in the leg, he still has the gun. If it was a real gun he could still fire it at the officers. Say the kid ended up shooting another kid - then whose fault is it? The cops for not using enough force would still be the bad guys. There is no good end to this situation. Cops did the right thing.

[YtseBitsySpider]

Ultimately I agree with cops, as I read he was running, and yelling things like "Im not afraid to die" (good thing)

But....still.....ugly ending.

[Orbert]

How many of you who are so quick give the cops a shiny star for blowing away a child with a pellet gone....have a child?

I have two kids and I'm on the cops' side (assume the reports of what happened are true). I have no problem with police officers doing what they need to do to protect their own life when a weapon is being pointed at them. I can't imagine a cop would shoot a kid without giving him every opportunity to drop the weapon.

Exactly this, even the part about having two kids.  Neither of my kids would be moronic enough to take a gun (even a pellet gun or toy gun) to school and point it at cops, and even if I'm wrong and they somehow managed to do just that, I wouldn't blame the cops.  Sure, I'd be crushed that it happened, but I still have read nothing that indicates that the cops did anything wrong.  Nothing at all.

Also, no one's giving the cops a "shiny star".  Everyone knows that it was a tragedy.  But there's a difference between recognizing that the cops did the right thing in a shitty situation and giving them a "shiny star".

[Scheavo]

I just have to wonder, how much does the super agent type movie influence peoples reaction to this story?

[orcus116]

How many of you who are so quick give the cops a shiny star for blowing away a child with a pellet gone....have a child?
A lot of really smart people have made really stupid mistakes, and not listened...and in this case...not taken authority seriously.

You have to think that without knowledge of him having a fake gun they were also protecting a school full of other kids and adults. That supersedes anything regarding that kid's wellbeing.

[Orbert]

I just have to wonder, how much does the super agent type movie influence peoples reaction to this story?

How do you mean?

[Chino]

I just have to wonder, how much does the super agent type movie influence peoples reaction to this story?

How do you mean?

Maybe he meant how easy it is to place a round. In an action movie, a gunner can be diving through the air and shoot shoot a gas valve 150 feet away. People might be thinking that shooting to disarm is much easier than it actually is.

[Scheavo]

I just have to wonder, how much does the super agent type movie influence peoples reaction to this story?

How do you mean?

Maybe he meant how easy it is to place a round. In an action movie, a gunner can be diving through the air and shoot shoot a gas valve 150 feet away. People might be thinking that shooting to disarm is much easier than it actually is.

Pretty much.

[Orbert]

Anyone who's ever fired a gun or a rifle knows that what happens in movies and on TV is almost completely removed from reality.  Of course, most people have never fired a gun or a rifle, so I guess that explains that.  Still, the action heroes who can hit a target 150 feet away while diving through the air can do that because they're super badass!   People like that may actually exist, but come on, anyone with a 3-digit IQ knows that your average cop can't shoot like that.  They fired three times under duress and only two rounds hit.

[Scheavo]

anyone with a 3-digit IQ knows that your average cop can't shoot like that. 

Without arguing the point, doesn't that basically leave 49% of the population?

[Orbert]

It used to work like that.  Maybe.  I've heard and read of so many different interpretations of how IQs are computed/assessed/determined that none of it makes sense other than that a higher score is better.

All seem to say that 100 is "average", but no one agrees on what "average" means.  I've read that your IQ is your actual intelligence over your age.  If you're five years old but as smart as a 10 year old, your IQ is 200, because you're twice as smart.  If you're 20 but only as smart as a 10 year old, your IQ is 50.  This makes no sense.  People in Mensa have relatively high IQs like 200.  So a 30 year old Mensa member is twice as smart as a high school kid?  Whoopee.

To me, it's the same as when they try to make kids who get C's in school feel better by saying that C is average, B is very good, and A is excellent.  But you can have entire classes where everyone gets A's and B's.  The person getting a C is definitely not average, and the average school kid does not get C's.

[Chino]

I just have to wonder, how much does the super agent type movie influence peoples reaction to this story?

How do you mean?

Maybe he meant how easy it is to place a round. In an action movie, a gunner can be diving through the air and shoot shoot a gas valve 150 feet away. People might be thinking that shooting to disarm is much easier than it actually is.

Pretty much.

It's unfortunate that the "dead eye" feature from Red Dead Redemption can't be used in real life.

[Scheavo]

It used to work like that.  Maybe.  I've heard and read of so many different interpretations of how IQs are computed/assessed/determined that none of it makes sense other than that a higher score is better.

All seem to say that 100 is "average", but no one agrees on what "average" means.  I've read that your IQ is your actual intelligence over your age.  If you're five years old but as smart as a 10 year old, your IQ is 200, because you're twice as smart.  If you're 20 but only as smart as a 10 year old, your IQ is 50.  This makes no sense.  People in Mensa have relatively high IQs like 200.  So a 30 year old Mensa member is twice as smart as a high school kid?  Whoopee.

To me, it's the same as when they try to make kids who get C's in school feel better by saying that C is average, B is very good, and A is excellent.  But you can have entire classes where everyone gets A's and B's.  The person getting a C is definitely not average, and the average school kid does not get C's.

From what I know, IQ of 100 is statistically set at average routinely, and it does correspond with your age. However, that means that to have a three digit IQ, like you said, means that 50% of the people aren't smart enough, from your own words.

Now, I could argue how stupid people can be, and how it doesn't need to be a sizeable portion of the population, to still induce people into thinking super hero stuff is possible, and that cops should just be able to hit the kid in the arm, the leg, or do something else amazing to save the kids life. Considering what we know about the case, the officer's shouldn't really be put on suspension, etc; yet that's what happened, and that's what some civil liberty unions are calling for.

[lordxizor]

I think it's standard practice in most police departments to automatically put an officer on paid suspension or at least take them off the street after they're involved in a shooting.

[Scheavo]

I think it's standard practice in most police departments to automatically put an officer on paid suspension or at least take them off the street after they're involved in a shooting.

Oh right... =D

I was meaning more of this:

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Parents-of-teen-killed-by-police-question-deadly-2444641.php

Meanwhile, an area civil rights group was demanding a thorough investigation. The South Texas Civil Rights Project released a statement calling for Brownsville police to conduct an investigation in 30 days, hire an expert on the use of deadly force, institute "de-escalation policy and training" and involve parents from the Brownsville ISD in the investigation and new policies and training.

[Chino]

Different investigation teams could be brought in for the next 10 years, and unless some sketchy unheard audio like "this kid looks foreign, kill him" comes into play, the same conclusion is going to be reached time and time again.

I have several pellet pistols, some of which are modified to produce projectile speeds that could kill someone. While the rounds are small and top speed is maybe only 720-750 fps at best, if I hit you in the right spot, your dead. When I am transporting these, there is no Co2 cartridge in them, they are unloaded, and they are in a lock box in my trunk. I treat them like a real fire arm. Also, in the even I get pulled over and for some crazy reason have my car searched, hopefully the police will see the safety measures and don't think I am planning a fake bank robbery or something. Maybe this event will teach kids that even 'toy' guns can be a real threat and should not be treated as toys, and if a cop tells you multiple times to do something you do it.


I know the reports said that the police ordered the kid several times to put the weapon down, did they say anything about opening fire on him if he didn't? Not that I think that matters, but I can see a good lawyer being able to use that in court. I don't think it would hold up of it were a 21+ year old, but against a 15 year old, it might have some weight to it.

[skydivingninja]

How many of you who are so quick give the cops a shiny star for blowing away a child with a pellet gone....have a child?
A lot of really smart people have made really stupid mistakes, and not listened...and in this case...not taken authority seriously.

You have to think that without knowledge of him having a fake gun they were also protecting a school full of other kids and adults. That supersedes anything regarding that kid's wellbeing.

This.

The kid was stupid beyond belief.  Assuming the pellet gun he had wasn't a model that was intended to look like a fake, they did the right thing, especially if the kid didn't drop the gun immediately.  Not worth it to lose your life over something like this.  Would have been nice if the cops were able to just wound and disarm him, but in the heat of the moment sometimes you gotta do what you've gotta do.

[El Barto]

Meanwhile, an area civil rights group was demanding a thorough investigation. The South Texas Civil Rights Project released a statement calling for Brownsville police to conduct an investigation in 30 days, hire an expert on the use of deadly force, institute "de-escalation policy and training" and involve parents from the Brownsville ISD in the investigation and new policies and training.

I think that's a valid point,  although I don't think it's Johnny that needs it, in this case.  As I said,  I think the cops acted appropriately in this instance,  and I think we all agree that the kid is the instigator of the event by being a dumbass.  However,  dumbasses needn't necessarily be shot and killed,  and this could have been reasonably avoided.  I think a huge contributing factor in this was the rapid escalation of circumstances,  which probably occurred much faster than expected.  The inclination nowadays is to treat any perceived threat against a school as the next Collumbine,  no matter how minor or trivial.  The reflexive tendency to press the lockdown button and go to red alert created a much more volatile atmosphere than need be,  which was certainly a factor in the outcome. 

People had guns back when I was a kid.  Occasionally people shot up schools when I was a kid.  Yet if somebody in my 7th grade whipped out a pellet gun in class,  the teacher would have asked him if was real,  ascertained it was a pellet gun,  confiscated it and sent him to the principal's where he'd be suspended for a couple of days (and never get his gun back,  which would be more severe than the suspension).  End of story.

I certainly blame the kid first and foremost for lacking common sense,  but there is other blame to go around.  To a lesser extent Dillon and Klebold.  To a greater extent,  a media that thrives on scaring the hell out of people,  a nation of chickenshit parents that are led around by it,  and a self-serving congress that rushes out to capitalize on the fear created.  That's the combination that turns a simple school disciplinary matter into a dynamic hostage situation. 

[Scheavo]

Those things don't seem to be so much with the police force, as society in general, so instituting de-escalation policy and training in the police isn't really going to help much. And while I agree that we let police be overly aggressive at times, and instituting some moderation of force is a huge plus in my book, this incident just doesn't really sound like it could have been easily avoided.

This all of course depends upon the circumstances, and how they actually occurred.

[Chino]

People had guns back when I was a kid.  Occasionally people shot up schools when I was a kid.  Yet if somebody in my 7th grade whipped out a pellet gun in class,  the teacher would have asked him if was real,  ascertained it was a pellet gun,  confiscated it and sent him to the principal's where he'd be suspended for a couple of days (and never get his gun back,  which would be more severe than the suspension).  End of story.

I remember, a few years ago, reading an interview with a professor of a high school where a student pulled out a gun (real) in his class and started freaking out and screaming.  The professor told the entire class to shut up and asked the kid with the gun to step outside. He talked to him for about a minute and the student handed the gun over to him. He got arrested,  but at least he didn't shoot anyone or get shot dead himself.

[orcus116]

My old principal drove a kid home, told him never to bring a gun to school again, and left.

[7StringedBeast]

Back in the day, in the high school I went to, kids would bring in their hunting rifles all the time and check them in at the front office.

[Scheavo]

People had guns back when I was a kid.  Occasionally people shot up schools when I was a kid.  Yet if somebody in my 7th grade whipped out a pellet gun in class,  the teacher would have asked him if was real,  ascertained it was a pellet gun,  confiscated it and sent him to the principal's where he'd be suspended for a couple of days (and never get his gun back,  which would be more severe than the suspension).  End of story.

I remember, a few years ago, reading an interview with a professor of a high school where a student pulled out a gun (real) in his class and started freaking out and screaming.  The professor told the entire class to shut up and asked the kid with the gun to step outside. He talked to him for about a minute and the student handed the gun over to him. He got arrested,  but at least he didn't shoot anyone or get shot dead himself.

Like someone pointed out just a sec ago, happened not long ago in Montana. Didn't escalate to a shooting.

[Orion1967]

I've seen some people jump on the cops for this but I think they were 100% in the right if the story is accurate. Some have said they should have shot to maim but there's a time and place for that and a school is sure as hell not one of them.

Uhm no. 

Actually there is NO time that shooting to maim is the answer.  As a police officer you are taught that you shoot ONLY in a life or death situation or where it appears that yourself, another officer or the general public is in danger of being on the recieving end of deadly force.  When you are forced to use your weapon in defense of your life or the lives of others it is a deadly force situation, period, paragrah.  You are taught to shoot to kill and at a minimum deliver two "smooth consecutive rounds to the center mass until the threat no longer existed".  If the situation dictated less than deadly force then you as an officer had no business shooting your service weapon in the first place.

I know you were supporting the actions of the police officers and I was not trying to rag on you at all as you are 100% correct, this is a justified shooting.

[Chino]

I've seen some people jump on the cops for this but I think they were 100% in the right if the story is accurate. Some have said they should have shot to maim but there's a time and place for that and a school is sure as hell not one of them.

Uhm no. 

Actually there is NO time that shooting to maim is the answer.  As a police officer you are taught that you shoot ONLY in a life or death situation or where it appears that yourself, another officer or the general public is in danger of being on the recieving end of deadly force.  When you are forced to use your weapon in defense of your life or the lives of others it is a deadly force situation, period, paragrah.  You are taught to shoot to kill and at a minimum deliver two "smooth consecutive rounds to the center mass until the threat no longer existed".  If the situation dictated less than deadly force then you as an officer had no business shooting your service weapon in the first place.

I know you were supporting the actions of the police officers and I was not trying to rag on you at all as you are 100% correct, this is a justified shooting.

That was an excellent response.  :clap

[hefdaddy42]

Back in the day, in the high school I went to, kids would bring in their hunting rifles all the time and check them in at the front office.

Further back in the day, when I was in high school, we frequently had students come to school in pickups with rifles on racks in the back of the truck.  This was mostly during deer season, and the kids were hunting before school and going back again after school.  The guns stayed on the gun racks in the trucks.  Everyone knew it, and there was no big deal and no problems.

[kári]

... wait you guys are serious?

[Ben_Jamin]

The cops were in the right, but that is what people are trying to resolve. But then again, cops should know everyday they may,not return, it's the sacrifice you make to protect others. We need to find a way were cops and suspect can live again. That's what pisses me off. Simple mental evaluations, would've prevented this.

[El Barto]

Back in the day, in the high school I went to, kids would bring in their hunting rifles all the time and check them in at the front office.

Further back in the day, when I was in high school, we frequently had students come to school in pickups with rifles on racks in the back of the truck.  This was mostly during deer season, and the kids were hunting before school and going back again after school.  The guns stayed on the gun racks in the trucks.  Everyone knew it, and there was no big deal and no problems.

Saw them all the time down here.  I think what's changed in Texas is the likelihood of them being stolen,  rather than the law itself (schools being an obvious exception). 

[Orbert]

... wait you guys are serious?

Yes.  Guns used to be something that people used primarily to hunt deer or rabbits with.  In parts of the country where it's common, your vehicle has a rifle rack, mostly for convenience but maybe to show off a bit.  If you're old enough and that's the vehicle you drive to school, you do.  No biggie.

Maybe it's hard to imagine a time when guns weren't commonly used by school kids to kill each other, but it's actually a relatively recent development.