Which is worse?

[kirksnosehair]

Eh, to be fair, there's a difference between 'I don't care' and 'I don't think it is wrong.'  The former is just apathy about an issue, not necessarily support or opposition.  Me, for example - I do think that if JP knowingly and directly lifted lines from a book, he should have credited that book for those lyrics.  However, it's also not like he published a book on psychological disorders claiming credit for research he didn't do and failing to cite his sources - he merely took some words and put them to music.  To me it's a nonissue. 

Like, I don't want people stealing from me, but if someone steals four pennies they find in my couch cushions, I really won't care. 

Point is, I do agree with rene that it's pretty much common sense: if you knowingly quote someone else under any context, you should credit them, or at least clarify that you weren't the original writer of the quote.  So, if JP failed to credit some obscure medical text for his lyrics, then I am, in principle, against that.  It just doesn't affect my opinion of the music or the lyrics or JP as a lyricist or anything else.

Okay, I get that that's your position.  Fair enough. 

To state mine more clearly:  I see nothing intrinsically wrong with taking direct lines or direct musical passages without citing the original source, at least not in this context.  I do not consider it stealing or plagiarism, and I do not think most professional musicians do either. 

I have no issue with those who think differently.  But I think it is nonsense for some who disagree to figuratively jump up and down and pound the table and try to say, "No, it's obviously intrinsically wrong; why can't you see it?"

If I can chime in with my "professional musician" hat on for a moment.....just to give some perspective as a guy who wrote some music that is out there on an album and has included lyrics with lines lifted directly from other copyrighted works:


In track 3 on "Back From Being Gone" which is called "Carpe Diem" we lifted a couple of lines directly out of Robert Frost's 1915 poem, "The Road Not Taken"  We did it on purpose, with absolutely no intent to pass it off as our own.

This is the section of the song in which we placed the lifted lines - these are posted here exactly as they appear in the lyrics booklet that comes with our CD - you can read them for yourself, Bosk1:

Your head buried in your hands and you don’t know where to turn
Your heart yearns for distant lands – far from the anchor at the stern
“Two roads diverge in yellow wood” - you’ll never know unless you try
You’ll always wonder if you should - “I’ll take the one less traveled by”


(note the quotation marks)

We felt that for such a famous work, the quotations were sufficient.  Robert Frost is not cited in our credits.


In short, Bosk1, I agree with you.

[ZBomber]

The Six Degrees lyrics weren't even good, they sound very clunky and parts of them don't really even make sense in context of the song (but do make more sense in the context of the text they were taken from). It bothers me that they didn't put more effort into atleast turning it into something Dream Theater, instead of a "collaboration" of medical journal entries and John Petrucci tying parts of them together.

Anyways, I  really don't care, I don't lose sleep over this, but I feel there should have been a notation in the liner notes stating the journals they used for the lyrics. Hamlet is a much more known work than whatever medical journal JP ripped the passages from, and many people will catch the allusion without having to look it up. These journals were NOT well known, however, so I feel that it deserves to at least be stated that a good chunk of the lyrics comes directly from another source other than Dream Theater.

Don't know about ITPOE because I never read the comic or whatever and don't care

[johncal]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

[MasterLomaxus]

Maybe this falls under "moral decline" in the eyes of some...Just sayin?

[reneranucci]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

Pfffttt do you have to repeat your old song all over the thread? Nobody is saying this is a big deal, we're just discussing it because someone posted a thread about it and some of us are interested in the subject. What's your problem? In your ideal world everybody only cares about the things you consider important?

Please keep posting your 1,000 youtube videos of Mangini playing the drums instead of getting on your high horse and trying to tell people what they should care about.

[Jaffa]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

I don't mean to start a big fight, but I don't really understand how you can take that viewpoint while sitting on the computer using the internet to access a forum to chat about a rock band.  When there are so many important problems in the world, the entire internet is a waste of time.  Shouldn't you be out, like, running for office or something?  Making the world a better place?

[johncal]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

I don't mean to start a big fight, but I don't really understand how you can take that viewpoint while sitting on the computer using the internet to access a forum to chat about a rock band.  When there are so many important problems in the world, the entire internet is a waste of time.  Shouldn't you be out, like, running for office or something?  Making the world a better place?

OK, I used to be a six figure guy. When my very specialized job and industry went to China, i wound up on unemployment for over 2 years, couldn't find any decent job. went through a bankrupcy, lost pretty much everything I had, sold everything I had and was fortunate enough to hang onto my house that's now worth around 50 grand less than I owe on it. My wife came down with a neuroligical disease, my dog died last year, and I had 3 heart attacks in one day last april. Fortunately, and I DO mean fortunately, I got a job making 1/3rd what I used to, but at least now I can just keep my head above water. I am very active politically, and can't wait to see the joke we have for a president removed from office.

So yeah, to me this shit's pretty unimportant in the scheme of things. "IMO"

EDIT: BTW, there are a lot of people that have it a LOT worse than I do, so I'm not bitching, just saying that's why I get pretty worked up when people get so negative about a band that actually brings some happiness to my life and i guessing at least a FEW on this board.

[ZBomber]

None of that matters because that has nothing to do with what we are talking about in this thread.

[King Postwhore]

None of that matters because that has nothing to do with what we are talking about in this thread.

Your mom.

[ZBomber]

None of that matters because that has nothing to do with what we are talking about in this thread.

Your mom.

My mom doesn't matter because she isn't registered on here.

[johncal]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

Pfffttt do you have to repeat your old song all over the thread? Nobody is saying this is a big deal, we're just discussing it because someone posted a thread about it and some of us are interested in the subject. What's your problem? In your ideal world everybody only cares about the things you consider important?

Please keep posting your 1,000 youtube videos of Mangini playing the drums instead of getting on your high horse and trying to tell people what they should care about.

If you had a high horse, you'd screw it!

And by the way, real fans do post 1000 MM youtube videos, they don't troll around like you do whipping up shit at every opportunity.

[Vivace]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

Pfffttt do you have to repeat your old song all over the thread? Nobody is saying this is a big deal, we're just discussing it because someone posted a thread about it and some of us are interested in the subject. What's your problem? In your ideal world everybody only cares about the things you consider important?

Please keep posting your 1,000 youtube videos of Mangini playing the drums instead of getting on your high horse and trying to tell people what they should care about.

I dunno. He's got a point and I agree with it. If a person cares more about a celebrity marrying someone, a song that just might be plagiarism or a musician who throws around empty accusations more than the "real" social issues of this world, then I guess that's their choice, but I still agree in its ridiculousness.

[hefdaddy42]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

Pfffttt do you have to repeat your old song all over the thread? Nobody is saying this is a big deal, we're just discussing it because someone posted a thread about it and some of us are interested in the subject. What's your problem? In your ideal world everybody only cares about the things you consider important?

Please keep posting your 1,000 youtube videos of Mangini playing the drums instead of getting on your high horse and trying to tell people what they should care about.

If you had a high horse, you'd screw it!

And by the way, real fans do post 1000 MM youtube videos, they don't troll around like you do whipping up shit at every opportunity.

There's no call for that.  Drop it.

[YtseBitsySpider]

...this subject is quite the can-of-worms.

Just ask Jackie.

[Vivace]

Oh jacki (echo)
What took you so long
On just a holiday
Oh jacki (echo)
What took you so long
I thought you knew the way
(heartbeat city)

[Sigz]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

Pfffttt do you have to repeat your old song all over the thread? Nobody is saying this is a big deal, we're just discussing it because someone posted a thread about it and some of us are interested in the subject. What's your problem? In your ideal world everybody only cares about the things you consider important?

Please keep posting your 1,000 youtube videos of Mangini playing the drums instead of getting on your high horse and trying to tell people what they should care about.

I dunno. He's got a point and I agree with it. If a person cares more about a celebrity marrying someone, a song that just might be plagiarism or a musician who throws around empty accusations more than the "real" social issues of this world, then I guess that's their choice, but I still agree in its ridiculousness.

Yeah, except nowhere in this thread has anyone said anything about their opinions of 'real world' problems except for him. Saying that we're not allowed to discuss this because there's terrible things going on in the world is just flat out silly.

[bosk1]

Sigz, nobody ever said anyone couldn't discuss anything.  Quit stirring the pot.

[Sigz]

I'm not trying to stir the pot! Sorry, but I just don't see how else we're to take a post like this:

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

Either way, it honestly surprises me that so many people have absolutely no problem with this. I mean, I'm not enraged or betrayed by it or anything, but it does bother me a bit that in both cases relatively obscure works were drawn from and copied with absolutely no credit or reference given to them. It just feels... wrong.

But I don't really know what's left to discuss on the subject past that, it's just a matter of opinion at this point.

[Jamesman42]

PRETTY SURE YOU CAN IGNORE IT OK?

[snapple]

I just have to say in the scheme of real 20% unemployment, world recession, governments falling like dominoes, moral decline, etc, etc, that this could even remotely bother anybody just shocks me. So you tell me "which is worse" real problems or this..... Just sayin'.

The only issue I have with this kind of post is the flawed logic within itself. If those issues are barring one from having a discussion about this, why are even online to talk about a band we like? Why do we even waste a second of our lives not focused on making things better.

The truth of the matter is, everyone needs a break from that shit. It's why a lot of us go on the Internet.

[ytserush]

Either way, it honestly surprises me that so many people have absolutely no problem with this. I mean, I'm not enraged or betrayed by it or anything, but it does bother me a bit that in both cases relatively obscure works were drawn from and copied with absolutely no credit or reference given to them. It just feels... wrong.

But I don't really know what's left to discuss on the subject past that, it's just a matter of opinion at this point.

Exactly how I feel.

If there was some credit given, even in an interview ("inspired" really doesn't cut it for me in this case.) Even if only just a line or three or four were copied, I'd be OK with that.

I couldn't find any interviews that dealt with those lyrics when this (from the case study textbook) fell out of the sky the first time.

It just doesn't feel right.





That said. I do think Kirk did the right thing with the lyrics as he presented them.

[skydivingninja]

I think there's a big difference in drawing inspiration from a story ("Brave New World," "Pull Me Under," "To Tame a Land") or retell it is fine.  Especially since the subject matter in those songs is pretty obvious in most cases.  But when lifting direct passages, something like quotes in the lyrics page ("Rime of the Ancient Mariner," "Xanadu") or a small credit to source material should be included somewhere. 

Its not a huge issue, no, but it can seem a bit sneaky and dishonest, even if the artist comes clean about it in an interview or something.  The phrasing of some of the 6DoiT lines are too similar to that journal.  Its entirely possible (and pretty likely) that Petrucci read that specific one.  After all, he's said he looked up journals when writing "Voices," making me wonder if lines like "spider in the window" etc. are lifted from books as well. :/  I still love 6DoiT but it makes me a bit sad knowing some really cool images or terms weren't his. 

Its not really legally stealing, but I don't think that means it gets a free pass.  Just some official acknowledgment in the album booklet would be fine.

[reneranucci]

I think there's a big difference in drawing inspiration from a story ("Brave New World," "Pull Me Under," "To Tame a Land") or retell it is fine.  Especially since the subject matter in those songs is pretty obvious in most cases.  But when lifting direct passages, something like quotes in the lyrics page ("Rime of the Ancient Mariner," "Xanadu") or a small credit to source material should be included somewhere. 

Its not a huge issue, no, but it can seem a bit sneaky and dishonest, even if the artist comes clean about it in an interview or something.  The phrasing of some of the 6DoiT lines are too similar to that journal.  Its entirely possible (and pretty likely) that Petrucci read that specific one.  After all, he's said he looked up journals when writing "Voices," making me wonder if lines like "spider in the window" etc. are lifted from books as well. :/  I still love 6DoiT but it makes me a bit sad knowing some really cool images or terms weren't his. 

Its not really legally stealing, but I don't think that means it gets a free pass.  Just some official acknowledgment in the album booklet would be fine.

I agree 100% with this. Very well written.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

SDN is right.

[Vivace]

Either way, it honestly surprises me that so many people have absolutely no problem with this. I mean, I'm not enraged or betrayed by it or anything, but it does bother me a bit that in both cases relatively obscure works were drawn from and copied with absolutely no credit or reference given to them. It just feels... wrong.

But I don't really know what's left to discuss on the subject past that, it's just a matter of opinion at this point.

I'm not bothered by it because in the grand scheme of things it's about as significant as a politician with three wives. Sure it all looks immoral from the front but since when has that bothered anyone? Lines like this get crosses everyday and over matters that should make others quite bothered but since those things don't seem to bother anyone it doesn't surprise me musicians lifting other material for lyrics goes largely ignored. If you feel betrayed that's your choice but like you find other people whom you think are telling you what to think as ridiculous I also find the idea that someone is betrayed by these events and not other more tangible events to be equally ridiculous. Basically at the end of the day, let's just agree to disagree.

[Sigz]

Huh? I specifically said I don't feel betrayed.

But this really isn't comparable to a politician cheating on his wife; this is art (as pretentious as that sounds). It's something that a lot of people invest a lot of themselves into. There's a reason so many people are such hardcore fans of the band after all. To suddenly find out that a song and artist that you had an strong emotional investment in (as I know SDOIT specifically has had a lot of) are not entirely what they seem to be... well, I can see where someone might be a bit peeved

[ytserush]

I think there's a big difference in drawing inspiration from a story ("Brave New World," "Pull Me Under," "To Tame a Land") or retell it is fine.  Especially since the subject matter in those songs is pretty obvious in most cases.  But when lifting direct passages, something like quotes in the lyrics page ("Rime of the Ancient Mariner," "Xanadu") or a small credit to source material should be included somewhere. 

Its not a huge issue, no, but it can seem a bit sneaky and dishonest, even if the artist comes clean about it in an interview or something.  The phrasing of some of the 6DoiT lines are too similar to that journal.  Its entirely possible (and pretty likely) that Petrucci read that specific one.  After all, he's said he looked up journals when writing "Voices," making me wonder if lines like "spider in the window" etc. are lifted from books as well. :/  I still love 6DoiT but it makes me a bit sad knowing some really cool images or terms weren't his. 

Its not really legally stealing, but I don't think that means it gets a free pass.  Just some official acknowledgment in the album booklet would be fine.

I agree 100% with this. Very well written.

I agree with most of this.

Not sure if I'd characterize the emotion as being a bit sad in my case, a bit annoyed maybe.  I'm still able to enjoy the song fortunately. It would be sad if I wasn't able to enjoy it anymore.

[energythief]

Don't care about the "rightness" or "wrongness" of it, however it feels a little lazy. The least JP could so is rewrite the lines. However, my vote is "meh".