Poll

Concerning Dream Theater, which is worse?

Directly quoting more than a line or two of lyrics
Directly quoting, being influenced by, paying tribute to a musical riff, passage or idea
Both are equally objectionable
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil
I don't care

Author Topic: Which is worse?  (Read 13123 times)

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Offline ytserush

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Which is worse?
« on: January 03, 2012, 09:03:49 PM »
This has nothing directly to do with Portnoy's accusations of plagiarism since he was in the band when the two instances of directly taking lyrics (or alledgedly directly taking lyrics) from other sources. I suppose this is about John Petrucci. (who I've lost a little respect for as a lyricist, but in the end doesn't affect my enjoyment or non enjoyment of those songs in question)

I'm going with option 1.


From the other thread: (Thanks to Bosk for distilling the essence of the accusations.)

It seems to me, perhaps erroneously, that people seem more up in arms over the musical side of this question than the lyrical side. I suppose I'm just trying to figure out if that's the case to satisfy my own curiosity.

Quote
bosk1:



Regarding ITPOE:  It is based on a (Korean, I think?) Manga called The Priest, which is pretty common knowledge.  He used some direct wording from some passages and paraphrased the story in others.  This is fairly common knowledge.

Regarding Six Degrees:  It was alleged (and when I say "alleged," I'm not implying that this is false; only that I have never seen it, so I cannot confirm or deny whether it was true) that, similarly, JP incorporated some passages from some medical or psychological case book(s) into the lyrics of SDOIT.

The long and short of it is, a few people were bent out of shape over it, a few people defended the band, and the majority responded along the lines of, "Okay, that's fine, but I really don't care." 

That's the short version, and I'm happy to have been able to clarify, so please, keep the thread focused.  Thanks.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 09:33:43 PM by ytserush »

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 09:18:24 PM »
I don't really care, but the point of it is, for me at least, if they (anyone in the band writing lyrics) decides to use another source of literature (be it a text book, journal, magazine, book, manga, movie, or other form of published media) as the inspiration for lyrics (directly quoted or paraphrased or otherwise), they should give credit to where the source material came from.

Otherwise, I'm fine that lyrics like ITPOE, "Forsaken", TDEN, or parts of SDOIT have been inspired by/taken from other sources.

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Offline Rainee100

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 10:53:35 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_that_retell_a_work_of_literature

Here are many examples of artists using literature for inspiration. It seems to be fairly common.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_that_retell_a_work_of_literature

Here are many examples of artists using literature for inspiration. It seems to be fairly common.

Indeed, and that list even includes DT's own "Pull Me Under", which uses Hamlet as lyrical inspiration.

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Offline MasterLomaxus

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 11:56:11 PM »
I, personally, do not care. 

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 01:33:33 AM »
I voted for do not care. No matter what they do, DT always add their own distinctive sound, and the music is good, so it doesn't bother me one bit.
Bands have been doing it since the beginning. Hell, Led Zeppelin wouldn't even exist without copying others, and nobody cares about that either. :lol
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 02:42:56 AM »
I don't care.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 04:44:57 AM »
This is me not caring.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline johncal

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 04:55:58 AM »
I don't care. I guess we just can't let negative shit go around here, ever. :facepalm:

Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 05:23:21 AM »
I don't care. I guess we just can't let negative shit go around here, ever. :facepalm:

You can't blame someone for wanting to discuss that topic in a message board. And this thread isn't negative at all. What is negative is what John Petrucci did. Directly copying lines without crediting the original writers. So the negative discussion wouldn't exist, if the negative act wouldn't have been done by JP. You can't just claim this hasn't been done.

That being said, I don't care.

Offline snapple

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2012, 05:31:51 AM »
You can't blame someone for wanting to discuss that topic in a message board. And this thread isn't negative at all. What is negative is what John Petrucci did. Directly copying lines without crediting the original writers. So the negative discussion wouldn't exist, if the negative act wouldn't have been done by JP. You can't just claim this hasn't been done.

That being said, I don't care.


Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 05:34:59 AM »
You can't blame someone for wanting to discuss that topic in a message board. And this thread isn't negative at all. What is negative is what John Petrucci did. Directly copying lines without crediting the original writers. So the negative discussion wouldn't exist, if the negative act wouldn't have been done by JP. You can't just claim this hasn't been done.

That being said, I don't care.



Would you mind telling me your problem with my post?

Offline snapple

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2012, 05:36:31 AM »
The blatant accusation of plagiarism and then saying I don't care.

And Rena's post just absolute destroys any argument. Do you like Iron Maiden at all? They should credit each and every song they do (practically). Most of their songs are based on literature or a movie.

So, you get a cute chick laughing at you and slapping a clipboard in her face.

Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2012, 05:39:18 AM »
The blatant accusation of plagiarism and then saying I don't care.

Where did I say it's plagiarism? I said he directly copied lines. And he did that. I didn't make that up. If you didn't have a look at that Priest-thingy, that's not my fault.

But I don't care about that, because it's pretty common and not a big deal for me.

Hope this helps.

And in your edit you SAID that it's not a big deal for you neither. So your basically in my opinion. I don't get it. If you think that calling this an negative act would be an accusation for plagiarism, you're wrong.

Offline snapple

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2012, 05:40:58 AM »
The blatant accusation of plagiarism and then saying I don't care.

Where did I say it's plagiarism? I said he directly copied lines. And he did that. I didn't make that up. If you didn't have a look at that Priest-thingy, that's not my fault.

But I don't care about that, because it's pretty common and not a big deal for me.

Hope this helps.


Ahem.


Quote
Directly copying lines without crediting the original writers.

I don't need a dictionary edition of Jeopardy to know that the answer is "What is plagiarism?".

Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 05:42:27 AM »
The blatant accusation of plagiarism and then saying I don't care.

Where did I say it's plagiarism? I said he directly copied lines. And he did that. I didn't make that up. If you didn't have a look at that Priest-thingy, that's not my fault.

But I don't care about that, because it's pretty common and not a big deal for me.

Hope this helps.


Ahem.


Quote
Directly copying lines without crediting the original writers.

I don't need a dictionary edition of Jeopardy to know that the answer is "What is plagiarism?".

Well, and John Petrucci did that. I'm sorry. He did it. What the fluck do you want from me?


« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:02:31 AM by Rob24 »

Offline snapple

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 05:45:22 AM »
You just had said you didn't accuse him of plagiarism, when in fact you clearly did. I don't want anything from you. I only strongly encourage you to read your own posts before you say you did or didn't say anything.

The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous that people are still making an issue of this. Dream Theater has never plagiarized anything. Yeah, there are some examples that you COULD argue. But, the fact is they didn't. Even songs like Never Enough and Solitary Shell don't bug me, and they seem like honest nods in the direction of some influences. Maybe a strong nod, but not "LOL LET'S COPY"

Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 05:46:32 AM »
John Petrucci agreed that this manga was an inspiration for him.

In this manga, there are direct lines from ITPOE.

So he copied them without giving the writer credit in the booklet of SC. I never said it was a "LOL LET'S COPY" thing. But if John said that he used this manga for inspiration and then they both contain "I do not fight for you, dark master! (and more), it's simply copying. I did not make the definition of "copying" up. I'm sorry.

He did it, there are pictures of the manga. And I'm saying: That's not a big deal. I don't care for it, I'm cool with it. I don't think JP did it with bad intentions. I think it's inspiration and it's fine.

You can't deny any of that and that's all I'm saying. Jesus Christ. Save your pictures for yourself.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 06:39:31 AM »
I don't really care either way. I do think Petrecci went a little far with how he copied huge portions of some of those sources word for word in his lyrics, though.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 07:01:30 AM »
I don't really care either way. I do think Petrecci went a little far with how he copied huge portions of some of those sources word for word in his lyrics, though.

I don't have a problem with it being worded like that. The previous poster accused of plagiarism. I'm not saying you, Xanadu, are or aren't doing the same. But, plagiarism is a very strong word that is often used incorrectly, or even carelessly. Keep in mind that every major university in the United States (probably the world, too) has a zero tolerance policy on plagiarism. It's a very serious thing.

Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 07:13:54 AM »
I don't really care either way. I do think Petrecci went a little far with how he copied huge portions of some of those sources word for word in his lyrics, though.

I don't have a problem with it being worded like that. The previous poster accused of plagiarism. I'm not saying you, Xanadu, are or aren't doing the same. But, plagiarism is a very strong word that is often used incorrectly, or even carelessly. Keep in mind that every major university in the United States (probably the world, too) has a zero tolerance policy on plagiarism. It's a very serious thing.

JESUS CHRIST.

John Petrucci said he got inspiration from the Priest manga. In this Priest manga, there are lines that are featured word by word in "In the Presence of Enemies".

I didn't use the word "plagiarism" anywhere and you're talking about a strong WORD. Are you insane? I said that he took SOME sentences and USED them in his lyrics, because he obviously did. Or do you think it's coincidence? You can say a riff or a song structure is inspired, but if the words are the SAME, they're the same, god damn it. That's everything I said. Now you're claiming I'm Mike Portnoy! But I never called it blatant or anything. I said I'm cool with it and it's nothing but inspiration.

Just because YOU didn't see that manga, that doesn't mean that's not the way it is.  :facepalm:

« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 07:42:48 AM by Rob24 »

Offline reneranucci

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 07:40:59 AM »
It really bothers me that Petrucci didn't give any credit to the author of Priest, . He should be very ashamed of having the booklet say "Lyrics by John Petrucci", when most of the lyrics are just copied from the book. It doesn't take more than primary school to know that it is wrong. The same applies if he did that with SDOIT.

That said, I love both songs, and in the case of ITPOE I liked it more after knowing a little bit about the manga (knowing what the songs are really about is very good). Regarding musical rip-offs, they don't bother me, and I like them if they're well done and if I like the band that inspired them. The Roger Taylor harmonies in POW and the intro of Octavarium are good examples. Ripping of Muse is a bad idea.

Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 07:42:23 AM »
It really bothers me that Petrucci didn't give any credit to the author of Priest, . He should be very ashamed of having the booklet say "Lyrics by John Petrucci", when most of the lyrics are just copied from the book. It doesn't take more than primary school to know that it is wrong. The same applies if he did that with SDOIT.


Thank you for agreeing! And I didn't even say that he should be ashamed, I just stated the facts and snapple made me look like a total idiot.

Offline reneranucci

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 07:47:28 AM »
Hehe yeah maybe I went too far with that. But yes, I agree with you. And just ignore the other guy.

Offline John94

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 08:11:16 AM »
Doesn't bother me one bit.

Offline a51502112

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 08:28:44 AM »
"Regarding Six Degrees:  It was alleged (and when I say "alleged," I'm not implying that this is false; only that I have never seen it, so I cannot confirm or deny whether it was true) that, similarly, JP incorporated some passages from some medical or psychological case book(s) into the lyrics of SDOIT."

I did see the transcription of this book on MP dot com a long time ago. The lines were directly lifted from the book with no changes.
WRT Six Degrees: My only problem with this is that before I knew about JP's "borrowing", I always thought how unbelievably smart JP was for writing such lyrics. He could have at least given credit.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 08:29:44 AM »
As with the vast majority who have voted, I don't care.  There is nothing "wrong" or shame-worthy about either.  And I'm sorry, but any argument to the contrary is just plain silly.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 08:41:19 AM »
I don't really care either way. I do think Petrecci went a little far with how he copied huge portions of some of those sources word for word in his lyrics, though.

I don't have a problem with it being worded like that. The previous poster accused of plagiarism. I'm not saying you, Xanadu, are or aren't doing the same. But, plagiarism is a very strong word that is often used incorrectly, or even carelessly. Keep in mind that every major university in the United States (probably the world, too) has a zero tolerance policy on plagiarism. It's a very serious thing.

He wasn't plagiarizing. Anyone who thinks he was needs to learn what plagiarizing really means. :P
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Offline Rob24

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 08:52:06 AM »
I don't really care either way. I do think Petrecci went a little far with how he copied huge portions of some of those sources word for word in his lyrics, though.

I don't have a problem with it being worded like that. The previous poster accused of plagiarism. I'm not saying you, Xanadu, are or aren't doing the same. But, plagiarism is a very strong word that is often used incorrectly, or even carelessly. Keep in mind that every major university in the United States (probably the world, too) has a zero tolerance policy on plagiarism. It's a very serious thing.

He wasn't plagiarizing. Anyone who thinks he was needs to learn what plagiarizing really means. :P

Yes and I didn't say he was.

Offline Resonate

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2012, 09:07:02 AM »

Another vote for "don't care".

Offline Stonestef

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2012, 09:22:41 AM »
I don't care.In fact, I like it because it helps me have a visual concept in my mind.

Offline WildeSilas

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2012, 09:29:48 AM »
The Beatles borrowed lyrics from other sources at every turn, including a circus poster.  The Beatles kick ass.

/thread
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Offline Elaitch

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2012, 10:18:15 AM »
I don't think JP used the lines with the intent of purposely trying to make dishonest revenue on another man's work, but rather because he thought the lines captured the scenery he was aiming to portray in a way he couldn't write himself. There's no need to be too stuck up the butt about it, since it's really a minor thing that there's no need to make a big fuss about. Compared to most musical "homages" DT has done over the years, this is really a fart in the ocean.

One could argue he should've been a bit more careful before crediting all of the lyrics to himself, though, considering that a small note that some of the lyrics was directly taken from other sources would've avoided this whoe discussion.

Offline a51502112

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2012, 11:12:26 AM »
I'm posting this just for discussion and because I think it's interesting.
OK I found the Six Degrees story. It's actually from this forum, but looks like the thread is deleted:https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=20426.0

From a book by: Steven Schwartzberg, written in 2000: https://www.amazon.com/Casebook-Psychological-Disorders-Emotional-Distress/dp/0321011716 



Case 4: Bipolar Disorder

Thirty-year old Audrey Samson briskly paced the short length of the psychiatric evaluation unit of her local hospital. "Where's my manuscript? Where's my pen? Dr. Spock is obsolete! Child-raising, child-rearing, experts, experts, and more experts! I'm rewriting it all, for mothers everywhere! Revamping patriarchal society's version of bringing up baby. It takes a village, I know that much, Hillary Clinton. They're expecting me in Washington, and I've got work to do, I'm the one for the job!"
Mark, Audrey's husband... His eyes were red-rimmed from lack of sleep. A social worker with the hospital's psychiatric crisis service watched Audrey... "I've never seen her get this bad," Mark told her....
Mark stood by helplessly. He knew it was useless to try to reason with Audrey...

Audrey Samson was raised in a midwestern university town...

(her father): Always mercurial, however, he could just as easily be exuberantly charming and funny... barely taking a break... 

...Audrey was a driven student, even as a young girl... her drive toward achievement seemed endless...

...By mid-semester, she was sleeping 14 to 16 hours per day...

For the remainder of her college years, Audrey resumed her energetic pace, much to her advantage.....boundless energy...


From the schizophrenia chapter:



On first appearance, Roger Larkin looked and sounded like an average 25 year old.... Still, she remembered him as basically a healthy and "normal" baby.His infancy was uneventful, and he met important developmental milestones, such as learning to crawl, walk, and talk, on time. He was fussy in that he did not care to be held very much, but in most other regards he seemed no different from other infants......


As a boy, Roger was considered by his parents and teachers to be somewhat odd and isolative. He often had a "spacey" quality about him, tending to daydream in class and drift off into his own world. He kept to himself most of the time.

... He spent a great deal of time by himself. He began keeping an elaborate notebook, filling it with writings, drawings, and poems.

...She also hoped that moving away from home might help break Roger out of his solitary shell

...By November, Roger had made no friends and was helplessly behind in his schoolwork...He kept as his sole companion his notebook, writing for hours at a time...



  https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/13.aspx#215


"We knew once we had that we needed to come up with a concept that would tie it all together, so John and I came up with this idea of creating six different characters and each of us would write about three of them. So I wrote about three and John wrote about three. Basically, it's almost like a tour through an insane asylum where people are dealing with mental anguish, manic depression, and issues like that. So we created six different characters and tried to look at their different stories and differences in their lives, but yet the common thread that binds them all together."
 



Offline The Letter M

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Re: Which is worse?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
From the schizophrenia chapter:

Which, thankfully, dispels the theory that "Solitary Shell" is about autism.

-Marc.
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