Author Topic: The Church and the Dime  (Read 4835 times)

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Offline Nick

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The Church and the Dime
« on: December 30, 2011, 09:19:33 PM »
Random issue I was contemplating tonight.

I am an atheist, but that being said I actually get quite annoyed when people attack religion via politics using the 1st amendment. The amendment simply states that congress shall make no law ESTABLISHING a religion, which was an obvious strike against the state run churches the people of America had come from under. Many states had official religions, but of course the nation as a whole had no official religion.

My question is this, does the US government, by way of tax exempt status actually establish a religion? I realize that there is no religion actually established by this status, but the government can choose what religions meet the requirements for this status and what don't, and in a way that could be seen as establishing religions. I realize that's not establishing a single religion, but I still feel that in a way it goes against the spirit of the amendment. I have to admit I'm partially irked by the large sums of money many churches collect without ever having to take taxes into consideration. In my area various religions own large chunks of land which due to consolidation and downsizing have become unused. While most businesses would have to sell off something like this for whatever they can get and lead the way to future development the churches seem content to sit on the property, partially because they are not paying any taxes on the land, thus taking away incentive to do anything with land or property in any timely manner.

On a more ideological note I feel that churches should compete like businesses in a community and pay their fair share. As money flows around a town or city if a church is seen as an important enough place then it will have no issue raising the money necessary to pay taxes. Part of the reason I've always been very kind to religion is that I think in most cases religion is very kind to communities, and while I think churches should perhaps be taxed, it's because of the services they provide for a community that they would be in a good position to take advantage of deductions and such anyways and pay very little. I just feel that there should be a solid record of what they would owe, what they've done and what they've contributed in the form of taxes or services.

I realize many of the services churches typically provide can be paralleled to non-religious non-profit organizations, but once again I think accounts can easily be separated. In normal accounting procedures many different parts manufactured in the same plant have to be tied as best as possible to the overall costs and overhead of the plant, and in the same way I think you could separate a church soup kitchen from the regular religious ceremonies and associated costs.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on the issue. :)
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Offline orcus116

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2011, 10:29:39 PM »
I agree with your assessment because I feel like it's one of those archaic laws that does nobody any good in the modern age. I've seen some abuse of these types of laws close to me as well with the latest being a group of Hasidic Jews purchasing a large chunk of property nearby, building housing for thousands and then declaring that they don't need to pay the town for water because their religion doesn't believe in it. Naturally our town gave in because of fear of being sued for religious discrimination, costing the town more money than its worth and of course now our water bill gets jacked up and we have to pay for it. So yeah, religious buildings and communes should have to pay taxes just like everyone else.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2011, 10:46:33 PM »
Pardon my ignorance, but why do religious organizations not pay taxes?

Offline Nick

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2011, 10:54:10 PM »
Pardon my ignorance, but why do religious organizations not pay taxes?

There is a federal law in place allowing religious organizations to file for tax exempt status, just like not-for-profit organizations.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2011, 11:20:28 PM »
I know that...but why is that law there?

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2011, 12:11:01 AM »
I believe the notion is that churches serve the public interest.  And in many ways outside of that whole god thing,  they actually do.  I certainly understand Nick's point of view and generally agree with it.  That said,  if they suddenly find themselves faced with a huge tax burden,  it's not the shady aspects that are going to take the hit.  It's the charitable side that'll be the first to go.  If you want to say,  and I'm sure Nick does,  that The Man shouldn't be subsidizing the charitable component,  then that's fine,  although I probably wouldn't.  Personally,  I'd just like to see quite a bit more transparency.  It would appear that not only are churches tax exempt,  but unlike all other tax exempt organizations they're not obliged to open their books for anybody.  I'd say that the best solution would be to scrutinize their financial records,  and give them a sizable offset for the reasonable charity programs.  Managing hospitals and feeding bums is dandy.  Sending missionaries to remote islands to saddle the natives with guilt,  not so much.   

One of the things that always fucked with me is that on the classical station I listen to down here,  you hear commercials for various churches all the time.  Radio adverts cost money.  Always seemed kind of suspect to me that they're spending money to advertise. 
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2011, 06:23:43 AM »
I agree with Mr. Barto completely. Beyond the missionary part of it, it would also help weed out the blatant frauds(they're all frauds IMO). Religions would actually have to think twice about spending their money on mega-churches and infecting the law and education with non-sense.   

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 08:02:38 AM »
My question is this, does the US government, by way of tax exempt status actually establish a religion? I realize that there is no religion actually established by this status, but the government can choose what religions meet the requirements for this status and what don't, and in a way that could be seen as establishing religions.
It is my understanding that they can't.  There is some pretty weird shit out there calling itself a religion that the government can't do anything about, as long as they follow the tax code rules for that tax-exempt status.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2011, 08:14:33 AM »
My question is this, does the US government, by way of tax exempt status actually establish a religion? I realize that there is no religion actually established by this status, but the government can choose what religions meet the requirements for this status and what don't, and in a way that could be seen as establishing religions.
It is my understanding that they can't.  There is some pretty weird shit out there calling itself a religion that the government can't do anything about, as long as they follow the tax code rules for that tax-exempt status.

I think you are right. I am not well versed in these laws at all but don't they simply need to fit a criteria?

Offline rumborak

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2011, 08:51:53 AM »
BTW, this stuff is currently a topic in Germany. Germany historically supports churches with public money, and by default every citizen pays a tax for it. However, with all the scandals lately more and more people opt out of that tax.
Now, the interesting part comes in because the German CC at some point said that opting out of the tax also meant that you get get excommunicated. On one hand understandable because you're essentially stopping to pay your monthly fee to the club, but of all people the Pope actually made a statement that one's salvation can not depend on paying a fee. Besides, it really reeks of indulgences. So, currently the German CC (who frankly is of course mostly trying to protect its revenue stream) and the Vatican are at odds with each other.

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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 09:13:51 AM »
BTW, this stuff is currently a topic in Germany. Germany historically supports churches with public money, and by default every citizen pays a tax for it. However, with all the scandals lately more and more people opt out of that tax.
Now, the interesting part comes in because the German CC at some point said that opting out of the tax also meant that you get get excommunicated. On one hand understandable because you're essentially stopping to pay your monthly fee to the club, but of all people the Pope actually made a statement that one's salvation can not depend on paying a fee. Besides, it really reeks of indulgences. So, currently the German CC (who frankly is of course mostly trying to protect its revenue stream) and the Vatican are at odds with each other.

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Offline jsem

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2011, 03:19:59 PM »
Tax exempt statuses are good. Everyone should be exempt from all taxes in all forms at all times.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 03:46:13 PM »
Tax exempt statuses are good. Everyone should be exempt from all taxes in all forms at all times.
Well, I'm sure that will happen.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 07:32:09 AM »
Well, here's where I have a problem with the church's tax-exempt status and politics.  The minute any clergy openly endorse a candidate from the pulpit, then have crossed a line wherein I believe they should instantly forfeit their tax exempt status. 

Beyond that, I don't really have any problem with churches being tax exempt.

Offline Nick

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 12:03:37 PM »
My question is this, does the US government, by way of tax exempt status actually establish a religion? I realize that there is no religion actually established by this status, but the government can choose what religions meet the requirements for this status and what don't, and in a way that could be seen as establishing religions.
It is my understanding that they can't.  There is some pretty weird shit out there calling itself a religion that the government can't do anything about, as long as they follow the tax code rules for that tax-exempt status.

I think you are right. I am not well versed in these laws at all but don't they simply need to fit a criteria?

Even if it's a loose criteria, isn't there still a criteria in place to say what qualifies and what doesn't?
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »
Requirements for tax exempt status:

■ the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,

■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,

■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,

■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and

■ the organization’s purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.


I wouldn't say that's 'establishing religion', unless you have a religion that is based around lobbying.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2012, 12:31:37 PM »
Tax exempt statuses are good. Everyone should be exempt from all taxes in all forms at all times.
Well, I'm sure that will happen.

When ever I open may wallet, it should be full of money.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 12:42:16 AM »
Requirements for tax exempt status:

■ the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,

■ net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,

■ no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,

■ the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and

■ the organization’s purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.


I wouldn't say that's 'establishing religion', unless you have a religion that is based around lobbying.
It's establishing religion.  Just not a specific religion. 
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 12:45:34 AM »
Oh definitely, I should have been clearer - I just meant it's not 'establishing' some religions so to speak while ignoring others through tax code definitions. At least, that's what I thought Nick was saying, though I could be wrong.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 12:48:41 AM »
What religions are they dismissing?  Hell,  even the Cult of Scientology is getting their tax break.  Seems to me that anybody and everybody who wants to consider themselves a church gets their tax exempt status. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2012, 01:13:41 AM »
The law exists precisely so government doesn't forbid religions from practically existing; i.e. we tax entities, but taxing a small church could mean it can't operate, as owning land, heating a building, etc, require money. I assume that's why the law is in place, so that we don't go about only letting larger churches and religions exist. With that in mind, I really don't think it would be fair to start taxing all religions, just make sure we enforce the laws that actually exist, so that certain pastors and other douchebags don't use religion to get rich, and get away tax free.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2012, 04:19:57 AM »
Well, here's where I have a problem with the church's tax-exempt status and politics.  The minute any clergy openly endorse a candidate from the pulpit, then have crossed a line wherein I believe they should instantly forfeit their tax exempt status. 

Beyond that, I don't really have any problem with churches being tax exempt.
I agree, and I remember reading not too long ago that several large evangelical churches were threatened with a revocation of their tax-exempt status for this very reason.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2012, 05:58:19 AM »
The law exists precisely so government doesn't forbid religions from practically existing; i.e. we tax entities, but taxing a small church could mean it can't operate, as owning land, heating a building, etc, require money. I assume that's why the law is in place, so that we don't go about only letting larger churches and religions exist. With that in mind, I really don't think it would be fair to start taxing all religions, just make sure we enforce the laws that actually exist, so that certain pastors and other douchebags don't use religion to get rich, and get away tax free.

Why wouldn't it be fair? Religions are not mandated to exist. If they are having trouble getting off the ground that is their problem. Just like every other type of business, organization or even a club; It is up to them to get it started and to keep it alive. It is not up to the tax payer to carry them through, especially giving the nature of religion.

For example if I wanted to open a medical clinic or a school, I would have to pay taxes. I would have to work to pay off those taxes. Don't you think that is wrong? I mean I would actually be helping people; that would be the sole purpose, helping people. With religious organizations they think they help people because there faith cannot necessarily be proven. Don't get me wrong; some do charity work. Their charity work is great and should be tax exempt, I have no problem with that. Then there is the other 365 day of the year where they just sit back and collect tax free money from people.

A tax would weed out the frauds and those who truly believe with continue. If a message is true it will survive. People have the right to believe whatever they desire but religions do not have a right of mandated existence. They should work for it like everyone else. 

I agree, and I remember reading not too long ago that several large evangelical churches were threatened with a revocation of their tax-exempt status for this very reason.

Good! I hope this happens more often.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2012, 08:54:32 AM »
The law exists precisely so government doesn't forbid religions from practically existing; i.e. we tax entities, but taxing a small church could mean it can't operate, as owning land, heating a building, etc, require money. I assume that's why the law is in place, so that we don't go about only letting larger churches and religions exist. With that in mind, I really don't think it would be fair to start taxing all religions, just make sure we enforce the laws that actually exist, so that certain pastors and other douchebags don't use religion to get rich, and get away tax free.

Why wouldn't it be fair? Religions are not mandated to exist. If they are having trouble getting off the ground that is their problem. Just like every other type of business, organization or even a club; It is up to them to get it started and to keep it alive. It is not up to the tax payer to carry them through, especially giving the nature of religion.


If you can't see the difference between religion and everything else you mentioned, I really don't see how this conversation could possibly move forward.

Tax payers aren't carrying thme through, and that is such a gross misrepresentation of not taxing them that's it mindboggling.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2012, 10:22:47 AM »
If you can't see the difference between religion and everything else you mentioned, I really don't see how this conversation could possibly move forward.

I do see the difference. Religion, something anyone can dream up and start without any regard to reality. Then there is everything else that does get taxed. Using the examples of clinics and schools which are very real and actually are there to help and educate. With religion sure there are charity drives here and there but their main purpose is to spread and continue. I live in a town with 4 churches and not one of them do any charity work other than the occasional food donation which consists of them putting out a container for people to drop food in, WOOPTY-DOOO. This makes it OK to have tax exemptions all year round?

Then there's the problem of what they teach as fact, it basically goes against what is taught in school. That is not a service to the public; it's a hindrance.
 
Tax payers aren't carrying thme through, and that is such a gross misrepresentation of not taxing them that's it mindboggling.

Please explain to me how it is a misrepresentation? A vacancy is created, someone has to make up for the land taxes and whatever other expenses they are allowed. Have you seen the mega-churches in the states?   

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 11:33:09 AM »
Churches don't exist for a profit, and we don't tax them. Should we start taxing non-profit entities? That's a horrible idea, and would mean a worse society and community for all of us. Should we only allow schools "we" agree with to be tax exempt? One major aspect of religion is educational, even if you don't agree with it, it's not the states job to say what is and is not educational, and what citizens can or cannot believe in.

You seem to be ignoring what I said; I think we need to enforce the laws that are on the books. There are churches and pastors who exist for the money, and they should be taxed like anything else that exists for a profit.

I'm hardly a religious person, I've never been to one religious ceremony in my entire life, never set foot in a church for service, and have no desire to ever do so - but your description of religion is blatantly one sided, biased, and inaccurate. Those megachurches probably fall in line with the kind of entities I no longer thing are "non-profit," and as such, should be taxed. But you can't say that every church is a megachurch, you can't equate every pastor to a Robertson.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2012, 11:57:36 AM »
Churches don't exist for a profit, and we don't tax them. Should we start taxing non-profit entities?

Anything that is not charity should be taxed. Where does all the excess money go? Do you really think that all these churches that collect thousands a month are just giving away whatever they don't need? Also for being non profit the Preachers make sure they get paid.

That's a horrible idea, and would mean a worse society and community for all of us. Should we only allow schools "we" agree with to be tax exempt? One major aspect of religion is educational, even if you don't agree with it, it's not the states job to say what is and is not educational, and what citizens can or cannot believe in.

Actually it is the states job, one of the big ones in fact. Religion brings only speculation and often contradiction to the table. If something is true than it is true on it's own merit and is not inherent to religion.

You seem to be ignoring what I said; I think we need to enforce the laws that are on the books. There are churches and pastors who exist for the money, and they should be taxed like anything else that exists for a profit.

I didn't ignore it at all. I said tax them.

I'm hardly a religious person, I've never been to one religious ceremony in my entire life, never set foot in a church for service, and have no desire to ever do so - but your description of religion is blatantly one sided, biased, and inaccurate. Those megachurches probably fall in line with the kind of entities I no longer thing are "non-profit," and as such, should be taxed. But you can't say that every church is a megachurch, you can't equate every pastor to a Robertson.

I didn't. Unlike Robertson most Pastors are deceit human beings but they should still be taxed. Only charities should have tax exemptions and they should have there books carefully monitored and even in some cases made public

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2012, 12:42:20 PM »
Churches don't exist for a profit, and we don't tax them. Should we start taxing non-profit entities?

Anything that is not charity should be taxed. Where does all the excess money go? Do you really think that all these churches that collect thousands a month are just giving away whatever they don't need? Also for being non profit the Preachers make sure they get paid.

It costs money to heat a building; many churches also provide other services, and a lot of them DO provide charity work. DO all of them? Nope. Never said they did. Also, depending upon how you define "charity," we'd have to start taxing a lot more services that do us good, and we'd be harmed by them not being there. Hospitals and clinics aren't charitable, but many of them don't have to pay taxes. Same goes for a lot of schools, science research, etc.

You also seem to be confused by what "non-profit" means. It doesn't mean people don't get paid, it means that after expenditures, there isn't profit. Income =/= profit.

*edit*

I mean, I think we essentially agree, I'm just not demonizing all religions in the process. If we got down to the actual process of deciding which churches should be taxed, and which should not, we'd probably agree 99%+ of the time. Which is why I said we need better enforcement of the laws that are on teh books, and not a whole rewriting of the laws, or our social contract about what should and should not be taxed. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 01:27:39 PM by Scheavo »

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2012, 05:47:55 AM »
It costs money to heat a building; many churches also provide other services, and a lot of them DO provide charity work. DO all of them?
I'm fine with them not taxing their charity work. Most of them don't do enough to, IMO, qualify for yearly tax exemption.

Nope. Never said they did. Also, depending upon how you define "charity," we'd have to start taxing a lot more services that do us good, and we'd be harmed by them not being there. Hospitals and clinics aren't charitable, but many of them don't have to pay taxes. Same goes for a lot of schools, science research, etc.

Yes, I shouldn't have said that anyone who is not charity should not be tax exempt. That was my poor communication.

You also seem to be confused by what "non-profit" means. It doesn't mean people don't get paid, it means that after expenditures, there isn't profit. Income =/= profit.

Yes but with churches the Pastor is not paid to do charitable or research etc etc. He/she is paid to preach a their world view that isn't consistent with evidence. If they decide to do charitable work that's just a bonus and not required. If a school does charity work that is also bonus but their main purpose is to educate and further humankind. Every other organization has to work for it's tax exemption. With a church one guy has to get up in front of people a few times a week and speak.   

*edit*

I mean, I think we essentially agree, I'm just not demonizing all religions in the process.

I don't see how taxing churches is demonizing them. Tax exemption should be reserved for further society not preaching world views as mandates from on high. 

If we got down to the actual process of deciding which churches should be taxed, and which should not, we'd probably agree 99%+ of the time. Which is why I said we need better enforcement of the laws that are on teh books, and not a whole rewriting of the laws, or our social contract about what should and should not be taxed.

I would be perfectly fine with churches not being taxed if they did a mandated amount of charity or something else to benefit society other than spreading their world view.

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2012, 04:31:26 PM »
I don't necessarily disagree with your main points El JoNNo, but if the government had to enforce a tax plan such as the one you are suggesting, it would greatly restrict religious freedom in this country.  Churches are not and shouldn't be businesses, and while megachurches tend to get most of the media attention and appear to run like businesses, most churches do not.  Not to mention the kind of oversight required to determine which churches do or do not qualify would be enormous, and would lead to megachurches surviving while the small local churches disappear. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2012, 04:41:34 PM »
I don't see how taxing churches is demonizing them. Tax exemption should be reserved for further society not preaching world views as mandates from on high. 

I never said taxing churches is demonizing them, your constant description of them as basically nothing but greedy and interesting only in expanding their opinion and power is. Many churches don't actively proselytize, many religions actively discourage the idea, and exist because humans have a fundamental desire to know what's going on, what their point is, etc.

You're letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2012, 07:54:14 AM »
I don't necessarily disagree with your main points El JoNNo, but if the government had to enforce a tax plan such as the one you are suggesting, it would greatly restrict religious freedom in this country.

I don't see how it would restrict religious freedom. People would the freedom they've always had, their churches would just be taxed. Will that lesson the amount of churches? Most likely but people will be free to do whatever they want. 

  Churches are not and shouldn't be businesses, and while megachurches tend to get most of the media attention and appear to run like businesses, most churches do not.  Not to mention the kind of oversight required to determine which churches do or do not qualify would be enormous, and would lead to megachurches surviving while the small local churches disappear.

That's why churches should only qualify if they fall under the guidelines that other organizations fall under. I think the megachurches would hurt more than the smaller ones.

I never said taxing churches is demonizing them, your constant description of them as basically nothing but greedy and interesting only in expanding their opinion and power is.

The main purpose of religion is to spread or maintain it's ideals or else there would be no religion, being nice to people is secondary.

Many churches don't actively proselytize, many religions actively discourage the idea, and exist because humans have a fundamental desire to know what's going on, what their point is, etc.

You're letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

It doesn't matter if they are proselytizing, they still need to earn there tax exemption not simply exist.



Tax 'em because they don't earn the tax exemptions.

Offline Nick

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2012, 08:30:03 PM »
As I said in my original post, businesses are asked all the time to go through what might seem very difficult lengths to separate costs and assign them through accounting methods so that nice records can be maintained. It's for this same reason any church can separate costs associated with charitable services and religious services. There is something called FASAB which gives accounting guidelines once laws are in place in order to clarify how things are to be done. I see absolutely no reason why this separation can't take place. My question is if the religious portion of a churches income should be taxed just like any other business.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: The Church and the Dime
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 09:40:43 AM »
Churches do not exist to make a "profit". They exist as a non profit charitable donation that gives the money they receive to the poor or other charities. I agree that churches which do make a profit and your local minister is going around in a Ferarri then yeah, I agree its a problem. However another problem you have is that the only Christian organization with a absolute leader is the Catholic Church which can and does intervene if a Church is overstepping their bounds. I have no idea how the protestants work or the non demoninations work if a minister is clearly in it for the money and not for charity.
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