Poll

I would vote for:

Barack Obama over Mitt Romney
Mitt Romney over Barack Obama
Barack Obama over Newt Gingrich
Newt Gingrich over Barack Obama
Barack Obama over Ron Paul
Ron Paul over Barack Obama

Author Topic: 2012 Presidential Election Poll  (Read 15039 times)

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Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2012, 03:32:31 AM »
Vagueness?

It's 100% clear:
https://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/

Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2012, 05:10:21 AM »
I'm sorry, but that sounds exactly what I was describing before: cut everything.
Quote from: bosk1
As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
:superdude:

Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2012, 06:17:25 AM »
Yeah, well - everything is getting cut at least a little.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2012, 06:21:50 AM »
By the sound of his plan, it's not just a little, but "tear everything down." Also my problem was that he doesn't seem to have anything else to say for himself; he's a one-trick dog. If your solution to any and all financial problems is just "cut it," that doesn't sound terribly realistic or convincing.
Quote from: bosk1
As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
:superdude:

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #144 on: January 18, 2012, 08:28:31 AM »
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2012, 08:42:28 AM »
The Ron Paul plan is mind-bogglingly absurd.  Another in a long list of reasons he'll never get more than about 15% support. 

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2012, 09:05:24 AM »
Under Paul, his complete failure to pass any bills would just continue, only at a higher level. He would propose stuff that is absolutely ludicrous, and Congress would shut it down one after one.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2012, 09:34:56 AM »
Since he votes against most bills anyway, he'd just get his way on stopping more "bad" stuff.

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #148 on: January 18, 2012, 09:38:49 AM »
You'd be hard pressed to say anything more fatal about a candidate. I don't look for a perennial naysayer in a president; I'm looking for a leader who gets stuff done.

jsem, do you not have doubts yourself about RP? I mean, what's your personal view on this guy?

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline emindead

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #149 on: January 18, 2012, 10:06:47 AM »
What I like about him is that he looks what to cut and plans to do it. He's not like: Damn, there's a knife inside this patient, SHIT! OK, hmmm, let's fix this, STAB ANOTHER ONE AND WE WILL REMOVE THE FIRST ONE. No, man! he's more like RIGHT, so it has made the patient lose a lot of blood. GREAT! it hasn't touch vital organs let's remove this shit! BAM! Patient will now enter to the recovery process.

Remove all those useless departments, that's what he'll do.

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #150 on: January 18, 2012, 10:18:32 AM »
I think it is a sign of major, major delusion to believe that 5 federal departments are completely devoid of any benefit.
The good news is, it's clear that even amongst Republicans, RP can not break the wall of more than 20%. That so far has been the high ceiling for him.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #151 on: January 18, 2012, 10:20:50 AM »
I think it is a sign of major, major delusion to believe that 5 federal departments are completely devoid of any benefit.
The good news is, it's clear that even amongst Republicans, RP can not break the wall of more than 20%. That so far has been the high ceiling for him.

rumborak
What Rumby said.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #152 on: January 18, 2012, 10:24:45 AM »
What I like about him is that he looks what to cut and plans to do it. He's not like: Damn, there's a knife inside this patient, SHIT! OK, hmmm, let's fix this, STAB ANOTHER ONE AND WE WILL REMOVE THE FIRST ONE. No, man! he's more like RIGHT, so it has made the patient lose a lot of blood. GREAT! it hasn't touch vital organs let's remove this shit! BAM! Patient will now enter to the recovery process.

Remove all those useless departments, that's what he'll do.

Cept, if you have a knife inside you, simply removing it could mean you die. If you ever get stabbed by something big, leave it the fuck in until you get medical attention. It may sound all good to just remove the knife, or in this case cut the budget?, but you have to look at other adverse effects before just removing the knife.

Obama wishes Betty White a happy birthday:

https://www.politico.com/blogs/click/2012/01/obama-to-betty-white-your-birth-certificate-111104.html

rumborak

Obama seems to have a genuine sense of humor. By the way, I just realized that Obama is left handed.

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #153 on: January 18, 2012, 10:27:26 AM »
Oh, you didn't know? Well, being lefty myself I guess I remembered that one the first time I saw it. I think Bill Clinton was lefty too.

EDIT: Whoa, good list of lefties as POTUS:

James A. Garfield  (1831-1881) 20th
Herbert Hoover  (1874-1964) 31st
Harry S. Truman  (1884-1972) 33rd
Gerald Ford  (1913-    ) 38th
Ronald Reagan  (1911 -    ) 40th
George H.W. Bush  (1924-    ) 41st
Bill Clinton  (1946-    ) 42nd
Barack Obama  (1961-    ) 44th

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #154 on: January 18, 2012, 10:28:26 AM »
Oh, you didn't know? Well, being lefty myself I guess I remembered that one the first time I saw it. I think Bill Clinton was lefty too.

rumborak

Probably came up, but I never cared. Some reason, I noticed it when he was writing this time.

Offline antigoon

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #155 on: January 18, 2012, 10:30:02 AM »
I just noticed, too. Lefties unite!

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #156 on: January 18, 2012, 10:32:57 AM »
I just noticed, too. Lefties unite!
o/

Offline emindead

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #157 on: January 18, 2012, 10:36:19 AM »

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #158 on: January 18, 2012, 10:38:25 AM »
Damn it.

Offline emindead

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #159 on: January 18, 2012, 10:47:49 AM »
Cept, if you have a knife inside you, simply removing it could mean you die. If you ever get stabbed by something big, leave it the fuck in until you get medical attention. It may sound all good to just remove the knife, or in this case cut the budget?, but you have to look at other adverse effects before just removing the knife.
Half-jokingly, half-true: RP is a Dr. I think he knows what to do (and Doctors check what damage the stab has done; has it cut an artery, is it infected, has it touched a vital organ? which I implied it didn't.)

Yet I digress, the point was to address an old analogy Rumborak said about "if the knife is in don't pull it out" which, arbitrarily and wrong as it is, can be modified to the point of view I want.

Those departments can have all the good intentions they want, the point is that they don't work and have helped to corrupt the system. I don't think name-calling supporters of any politician helps a bit. Some RP supporters may be extreme in their ways, yet I don't think all are "delusional"; considering that all the POTUS from Rep to Dem have applied the same "medicine" to their measures, yet they are "leaders" and "reasonable" according to your logic.
tl;dr No more name-calling, please.

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #160 on: January 18, 2012, 10:52:26 AM »
Cept, if you have a knife inside you, simply removing it could mean you die. If you ever get stabbed by something big, leave it the fuck in until you get medical attention. It may sound all good to just remove the knife, or in this case cut the budget?, but you have to look at other adverse effects before just removing the knife.
Half-jokingly, half-true: RP is a Dr. I think he knows what to do (and Doctors check what damage the stab has done; has it cut an artery, is it infected, has it touched a vital organ? which I implied it didn't.)

I kinda have my qualms about that one, btw. RP is a medical doctor; I have had many dealings with medical students, and there's one common thread among them: they are terrible with numbers. I know for the Paulites the fact that RP is a doctor is a source of pride (thus the whole "Dr. Paul, Dr. Paul!" chants on his gatherings), but I actually think it at least raises an eyebrow. Romney's previous profession makes him far more believable to speak authoritatively on matter of finance and economy. IMHO. The fact that RP so doggedly clings to defunct economic theories kinda underscores my concerns about him.

rumborak
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2012, 10:58:35 AM »
I really don't see how drastic cuts to government spending is going to help our country right now. History has shown that cutting government spending too soon after a recession can cause a second recession (see the Great Depression). Plus cutting government departments as Paul wants to would let out probably tens of thousands of people into a workforce that already has more people than jobs. I understand wanting a smaller government and trimming the fat. I just don't think this is the time to do anything drastic. Let the economy rebound while making modest cuts and then go further when the economy is humming along again.

Offline rumborak

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2012, 11:01:01 AM »
To stick with the analogy, the skilled surgeon removes the affected sites, not the whole organ. RP of all people should know that. I wonder whether RP always amputated legs when somebody had athlete's foot.

rumborak
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2012, 11:07:48 AM »
Cept, if you have a knife inside you, simply removing it could mean you die. If you ever get stabbed by something big, leave it the fuck in until you get medical attention. It may sound all good to just remove the knife, or in this case cut the budget?, but you have to look at other adverse effects before just removing the knife.
Half-jokingly, half-true: RP is a Dr. I think he knows what to do (and Doctors check what damage the stab has done; has it cut an artery, is it infected, has it touched a vital organ? which I implied it didn't.)

I kinda have my qualms about that one, btw. RP is a medical doctor; I have had many dealings with medical students, and there's one common thread among them: they are terrible with numbers. I know for the Paulites the fact that RP is a doctor is a source of pride (thus the whole "Dr. Paul, Dr. Paul!" chants on his gatherings), but I actually think it at least raises an eyebrow. Romney's previous profession makes him far more believable to speak authoritatively on matter of finance and economy. IMHO. The fact that RP so doggedly clings to defunct economic theories kinda underscores my concerns about him.

rumborak

Hehe, reminds me of a story about some medical research doctors rediscovering calculus, because they never learned / completely forgot what integral were. Apparently it was a huge problem in the entire field.

Those departments can have all the good intentions they want, the point is that they don't work and have helped to corrupt the system. considering that all the POTUS from Rep to Dem have applied the same "medicine" to their measures, yet they are "leaders" and "reasonable" according to your logic.

This is true for some of them, but it's just false to say that no federal agencies have done anything positive for people, or that no federal programs have done nothing positive for people. Social security works great. Medicare works great. To simply cut both of those programs becuase they have some minor adjustments that are needed is wrong and silly.

Also, Obama recently called for the power to consolidate and get rid of federal agencies, to reduce regulations, burdensome regulations, and improve the overall process. Way to be factually wrong about what the POTUS and other Democrats are proposing.

Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #164 on: January 18, 2012, 11:46:13 AM »
You'd be hard pressed to say anything more fatal about a candidate. I don't look for a perennial naysayer in a president; I'm looking for a leader who gets stuff done.
True, and this is the sad part.

The one thing that he single-handedly would be able to change though is foreign policy. As Commander in Chief he would be able to bring the troops home, end sanctions that kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and have the exact opposite effect of what they're supposed to have. He would cease drone programs, withdraw completely from a region that is hostile to the UR because of the
very presence and their constant meddling in affairs. He would shut down all foreign military bases, end the Afghanistan War, end the Iraq War (it's not over, there's about 17000 contractors still there afaik).

He would also be able to end a lot of civil liberties atrocities.

These are things he can realistically do.

But as far as replacing the monetary system and financial reform, actual downsizing, none of that's going to happen. I mean, he's not going to be able to end the federal income tax either, or withdraw from the UN or NATO in the near future.

jsem, do you not have doubts yourself about RP? I mean, what's your personal view on this guy?

rumborak

I have no reason to doubt his sincerity, his truthfulness or his integrity. I have no doubts that he would abandon his views once he gets into office.

The thing that bothers me about him though is his strict view of the Constitution. The Constitution was a very good document, but several things in it put me off. The "general welfare" clause is one of them, it could be used to justify nearly any intervention by the government into the economy and people's pockets. Also there is this absolutist view of states rights that bothers me, I'm not a US citizen so it shouldn't concern me that much - but even if Ron Paul would end the drug war federally, he wouldn't go in and stop a state from banning marijuana or something of that nature.

His personal view is however to have a union where every state has libertarian laws, but he takes his oath of office too seriously. The Constitution is in small parts an anti-liberty document.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #165 on: January 18, 2012, 01:08:10 PM »
He can't end sanctions by executive order.   You need the legislative branch for that.

Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #166 on: January 18, 2012, 01:18:35 PM »
True, but he wouldn't put on any new sanctions at least. The last sanctions on Iran were not passed through congress either afaik, it was done by executive order. It's sad.

When it comes to making a choice on who to vote for, remember this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #167 on: January 18, 2012, 01:25:44 PM »
Hey, jsem, you're right, a lot of the sanctions imposed by the US were by executive order.

I found this really good complete list of all sanctions passed against Iran since 1979

(funny side note, I found it through Wikipedia, which really isn't all that blacked out if you know how to press the escape button  :lol )

Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #168 on: January 18, 2012, 01:31:52 PM »
I almost feel that the only sanction I could see appropriate is to shut down their central bank.

But that would stem from the belief that central banking is bad and we want to free their people from the fiat money system :lol



Ok. Terrible joke.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #169 on: January 18, 2012, 01:35:34 PM »
By the way, from that link I just provided:

Quote
Congress approved tough new unilateral sanctions on June 24, 2010, aimed at squeezing Iran's energy and banking sectors, which could also hurt companies from other countries doing business with Tehran.
(emphasis mine)

I think when the congress imposes sanctions, the president cannot lift them by executive order.  I could be wrong, though.

The point to all of this, going back to Ron Paul, the powers of the executive branch are many, but especially on budgetary matters no President can just wipe out huge swaths of the federal government.  He'd have to work with congress on that stuff, so a lot of the claims that Ron Paul makes about balancing the budget in just three years are nothing but election-year hyperbole.

And that goes for any other candidate making similar claims.

Offline jsem

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #170 on: January 18, 2012, 01:40:35 PM »
By the way, from that link I just provided:

Quote
Congress approved tough new unilateral sanctions on June 24, 2010, aimed at squeezing Iran's energy and banking sectors, which could also hurt companies from other countries doing business with Tehran.
(emphasis mine)

I think when the congress imposes sanctions, the president cannot lift them by executive order.  I could be wrong, though.

The point to all of this, going back to Ron Paul, the powers of the executive branch are many, but especially on budgetary matters no President can just wipe out huge swaths of the federal government.  He'd have to work with congress on that stuff, so a lot of the claims that Ron Paul makes about balancing the budget in just three years are nothing but election-year hyperbole.

And that goes for any other candidate making similar claims.

That's his step by step plan.

But getting it done is a whole different story, especially with the way congress is now.

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Poll
« Reply #171 on: January 18, 2012, 01:50:35 PM »
Barack over Newt and Mitt.  Paul over Obama.