How much "sex" before marriage?

[snapple]

[A lot of stuff between KNH and snapple]

Even though I disagree with much of your position [   Get it?  I said "position." ], good post.

Yeah I read it and said "fuck it, I'll play Skryim". Barry is a very smart guy. I always think "just agree to disagree"

[Sigz]

fuck it, I'll play Skryim

My life in one sentence.

[rumborak]

The greater point here is, can you make it work despite not clicking in bed? Yes, of course, you can shoehorn just about anything in, including my dick into her.... I digress.
The question is, why set yourself up for a potentially uphill battle in terms of saving your overall relationship, when you can upfront clear out that hurdle and find someone you're sexually compatible with?

I can definitely say of one girl I've been together with that I fucking hated sex with her. She was a great personality and yes, I could have made it work. But later I found a girl that, lo and behold, I clicked both physically and mentally.
Are you suggesting I rather should have stuck it out with the first girl?

rumborak

[bosk1]

rumborak, what do you do for a living again?

[rumborak]

Software research. Why?

rumborak

[bosk1]

Software research. Why?

rumborak

Because, as I suspected, that admission pretty much proves that you've never even had sex, so you aren't qualified to post on the subject.

[rumborak]

Damn. DAMN! How could I walk that easily into a trap like that?!

Ok, I was actually talking about various models of Fleshlights. There was one model that I just hated, totally chafed my dick.

rumborak

[bosk1]

[snapple]

Damn. DAMN! How could I walk that easily into a trap like that?!

Ok, I was actually talking about various models of Fleshlights. There was one model that I just hated, totally chafed my dick.

rumborak

  I've been there, bro.

[Perpetual Change]

When you say "what is the biblical basis" I'm not sure whether you are asking where the Bible says that sex outside marriage is sin, or if you are asking whether the Bible says why it is.  That's where I'm unclear.  As to where, here are the ones off the top of my head that say that fornication, homosexuality, and/or adultery (which, as far as I can tell, pretty much have it covered when it comes to sex outside marriage) are sin:  Matt 15:18-20, Mark 7:21, Rom 1: 21-32, 1 Cor 6:8-10, 2 Cor 12:20-21, Gal 5:18-20, Eph 5:2-6, Col 3:4-6, 1 Tim 1:9-11, Heb 13:3-5, Rev 21:5-8.

You will notice that a lot of those passages are Paul's writings.  However, he does not anywhere say that "sex is evil, but it is less evil if in marriage."  Nothing of the sort.  He (like Jesus) only condemns sex as a sin outside of marriage.

Ah, thanks.

Corinthians 7 is what I was thinking of:

7:1 Now with regard to the issues you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of immoralities, each man should have relations with his own wife and each woman with her own husband. 3 A husband should give to his wife her sexual rights, and likewise a wife to her husband. 4 It is not the wife who has the rights to her own body, but the husband. In the same way, it is not the husband who has the rights to his own body, but the wife. 5 Do not deprive each other, except by mutual agreement for a specified time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then resume your relationship, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that everyone was as I am. But each has his own gift from God, one this way, another that.

I mean, Paul really just sounds like he's being an overbearing jerk about the whole thing, but that passage seems to have a big impact on the way a lot of Christians look at sex.

[lordxizor]

I'm not going around looking to put my unprotected penis into anything that moves. If you're safe and reasonable I see no extra risk in having sex before or after marriage.

So you can honestly say that it's no bigger of a deal if you accidentally get your girlfriend pregnant (especially if it wasn't a serious relationship) next week than if I accidentally get my wife pregnant next week? I understand that the likelihood of that happening is about the same, but the stakes are so much higher when you're not married. Anyway, either I've been misunderstood or you guys really don't see the difference between knocking up a girl you're dating and getting your wife pregnant.

[rumborak]

No, I think it's more that you can't see us weighing the possible danger of knocking up a fling being much lower than the misery of spending one's life together with a dysfunctional sex life. If you take sensible precautions (pill, condoms) the danger of knocking her up accidentally is plain negligible.

6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that everyone was as I am. But each has his own gift from God, one this way, another that.

Paul must have been one hell of an unpleasant character
I know he's saying this because he was abstinent whereas people in his congregation remained couples, but still, jeez.

rumborak

[Aramatheis]

So you can honestly say that it's no bigger of a deal if you accidentally get your girlfriend pregnant (especially if it wasn't a serious relationship) next week than if I accidentally get my wife pregnant next week? I understand that the likelihood of that happening is about the same, but the stakes are so much higher when you're not married. Anyway, either I've been misunderstood or you guys really don't see the difference between knocking up a girl you're dating and getting your wife pregnant.

but what the point the others are making is, "what difference is there between pre-marital sex with someone you've been in a relationship with for years, as opposed to doing it with your wife, when the only difference is you've made a couple pledges to your wife in a church?"

especially considering that those vows you make in holy matrimony are the same vows non-married couples make to each other when they've been together that long, but the difference is they're unspoken


plus, the whole getting married before you can have sex thing is essentially all hypocrisy, because I know a hell of a lot of people who've gotten married so they didn't have a bastard child

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Compatibility shmompatibility.  I could be compatible with a warm water balloon if I was awake the mood struck me right.

[lordxizor]

No, I think it's more that you can't see us weighing the possible danger of knocking up a fling being much lower than the misery of spending one's life together with a dysfunctional sex life. If you take sensible precautions (pill, condoms) the danger of knocking her up accidentally is plain negligible.

rumborak

I was strictly talking about risks of pregnancy and STDs, not relationship risks, so I guess perhaps that's where I was missing something if that's indeed what they were referring to. Neither of them ever mentioned relationship risks in responses to my posts.

These quotes in particular just seem flat out wrong to me (especially the first):

Premarital sex doesn't result in unwanted pregnancies and STDs

If you're safe and reasonable I see no extra risk in having sex before or after marriage.

but what the point the others are making is, "what difference is there between pre-marital sex with someone you've been in a relationship with for years, as opposed to doing it with your wife, when the only difference is you've made a couple pledges to your wife in a church?"

The sex itself it not different, I agree. The consequences of unintended pregnancy are hugely different between a person you intend to spend your life with versus someone you don't necessarily see yourself with long term (or who you've only been dating a short while). People who intend to spend their life together but never get married are different and basically no different than a married couple, but that's not who I was talking about.

Anyway... this has gone on far longer than I intended it to. There's obviously a bit of difference between what I'm meaning and what you all are meaning.

[snapple]

If you don't want someone to get shot, don't take the gun out of the holster- what my dad said to my brother when his wife got pregnant even though she was on the pill.

[rumborak]

Solely relying on the pill is rather dangerous indeed. It doesn't protect against STDs, and there's several things that compromise its efficacy.

rumborak

[Aramatheis]

Solely relying on the pill is rather dangerous indeed. It doesn't protect against STDs, and there's several things that compromise its efficacy.

rumborak

like too many penises

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Or antibiotics.

[7thHanyou]

My girlfriend and I are waiting.  Neither of us have had sex, and while we certainly look forward to it once we're married, neither of us regrets waiting.

I always wonder about the idea that sexual compatibility is so vital.  If my girlfriend and I have had sex before our wedding, and something fundamentally changes about my ability to have sex after our wedding, or the methods I would use (impotence, loss of limbs, etc.), the compatibility thing becomes irrelevant.

Ultimately, it's irrelevant anyway.  Sex is an important part of a relationship, but as a Christian, I believe it is an expression of love based on entirely different premises.  For me, it is an effect, not a cause, of a solid marriage.  There are plenty of people for whom this works.  I see no reason why sex before marriage should be necessary at all.

[yeshaberto]

"For me, it is an effect, not a cause, of a solid marriage."
well put, 7thHanyou

[Fluffy Lothario]

You know, I'm gonna throw a question out there for the Christians/otherwise dedicated waiters in the thread and if no-one answers it, that's okay, but if someone does, cool.

So, you restrain yourself from going too far into the realm of sexual contact with that person for the whole "dating" period, okay, hugging, kissing, maybe a bit of touching, but nothing more... and then you just go for gold. Wasn't it weird, even awkward, so dramatically changing the relationship so suddenly, after so long? Especially if neither person had had any experience at all beyond the stuff I mentioned above. It'd be like not travelling beyond your region for your entire life, then going, "fuck it, AMAZON!!!!" I can almost imagine there are quite a few Christians who end up having to kind of gradually work their way to it once they're married anyway. Either that, or tearing each others' clothes off, and then being like 

[yeshaberto]

unfortunately, both my wife and I came from very dark backgrounds, so we definately didn't go into our marriage as you described.  But I have spoken with a number of couples who did, and while it was awkward it was also special because it was something they could learn/experience together.  there were no past experiences to compare it to, so whether it was "good" or "bad" didn't matter.
and, as has been noted in this thread already, sex is only the frosting on the cake.  it is not the cake.

[rumborak]

sex is only the frosting on the cake.  it is not the cake.

What if ......










the vagina is the cake?!!!!




(how could I not post this? )

rumborak

[Fluffy Lothario]

I'd sure like to add a bit of my frosting to that cake.

[Fluffy Lothario]

Well, actually now that I look at it more closely, maybe not so much.

[yeshaberto]

how is it that practically every DTF thread ends up being about frosting?

[snapple]

how is it that practically every DTF thread ends up being about frosting?

A blessing and a curse.


Also, isn't the pill like 99% effective? If so, I'm taking my chances.

[lordxizor]

Wasn't it weird, even awkward, so dramatically changing the relationship so suddenly, after so long?

Sure, it took a few times before we got the hang of it, but isn't it that way it is for everyone when they start doing it? I thought it was fun figuring it and each other out after we got married. My wife and I were only dating for about 18 months before we got married, so we were still learning a lot about each other in other ways too. A friend of mine was dating his wife for like 7 years before they got married without any sex. I can imagine that was a bit more awkward of a transition.

Also, isn't the pill like 99% effective? If so, I'm taking my chances.

If taken correctly yes, theoretically. In real life it's only something like 80-90% effective because of missed pills and stuff. If you want the birth control to be solely in control of your girlfriend, go ahead and rely on it. If you want to have some control over it yourself, you'd better use more.

[Durg]

You know, I'm gonna throw a question out there for the Christians/otherwise dedicated waiters in the thread and if no-one answers it, that's okay, but if someone does, cool.

So, you restrain yourself from going too far into the realm of sexual contact with that person for the whole "dating" period, okay, hugging, kissing, maybe a bit of touching, but nothing more... and then you just go for gold. Wasn't it weird, even awkward, so dramatically changing the relationship so suddenly, after so long? Especially if neither person had had any experience at all beyond the stuff I mentioned above. It'd be like not travelling beyond your region for your entire life, then going, "fuck it, AMAZON!!!!" I can almost imagine there are quite a few Christians who end up having to kind of gradually work their way to it once they're married anyway. Either that, or tearing each others' clothes off, and then being like 

Well, let see.  I had been to South America before a couple times but never the amazon.  However, with marriage I finally went to the amazon but I had an experienced guide who could speak the native language.   

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

"fuck it, AMAZON!!!!"

I lol'd.

[j]

I slept with a lot of women before meeting my wife, and with practically all the ones I actually spent any time with, the sex improved over the course of the relationship.  That's not to say it was always "good", but sex ain't rocket surgery as they say, and despite what you might think (and what I thought in my late teens and early 20s), it's not that big of a deal.  While there were plenty of women with whom I didn't enjoy sex as much as others, there really isn't a huge spectrum of what you might call "God-given talent" in the sack.  A lot of it can be learned.

That said, the notion that you sleep with somebody before you get married to find out if you'll be "okay with having sex only with them for the rest of your life" (as somebody said earlier) is ridiculous too.  Nobody can make that judgment, you sort of have to decide to commit to it.

-J

[El Barto]

unfortunately, both my wife and I came from very dark backgrounds, so we definately didn't go into our marriage as you described.  But I have spoken with a number of couples who did, and while it was awkward it was also special because it was something they could learn/experience together.  there were no past experiences to compare it to, so whether it was "good" or "bad" didn't matter.
and, as has been noted in this thread already, sex is only the frosting on the cake.  it is not the cake.

And that's an interesting aspect to which I'd given some thought last night.  Presumably,  with no frame of reference,  the sex will just be.  I suppose that's not such a terrible thing.  However,  that opens the door to doubt and curiosity.  I'm not sure I'd want to spend my life just assuming that whatever me and my wife's unskilled asses are doing is all there is.

[kirksnosehair]

[A lot of stuff between KNH and snapple]

Even though I disagree with much of your position [   Get it?  I said "position." ], good post.

That emoticon made me LOL 

[hefdaddy42]

I just looked it up. I was remembering these:

Gen 38:8-10 ESV Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." (9) But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. (10) And what he did was wicked in the sight of the LORD, and he put him to death also.

Lev 15:16-18 ESV "If a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening. (17) And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water and be unclean until the evening. (18) If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water and be unclean until the evening.

Lev 15:32 ESV This is the law for him who has a discharge and for him who has an emission of semen, becoming unclean thereby;

These two passages have nothing to do with one another.  And neither of them have anything to do with "no sex before marriage."

The sin of Onan was that he failed to produce an heir for his dead brother, what is known as a Levirate marriage.  Since his brother was dead, it was his responsibility to function as a "stud" and make his sister-in-law pregnant with what would legally be his brother's son.  But instead, he just fucked her and pulled out, refusing to impregnate her, basically just raping her.  THAT was his sin.

The second passage there has to do with ritual cleanliness.  Pretty much any transmission of bodily fluids could make you ritually unclean, including sex, nocturnal emissions, a woman's period, etc.  But as soon as whatever such transmission was finished, you just purified yourself, washed up, and you were ritually clean again.