Red - Feed The Machine vs. DT - BMU, BMD

[Kotowboy]

If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.

That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know!

Don't think I didn't consider the very same thing myself.

I actually want someone to start a rumour like this just to get MP to take the bait..

[Rob24]

There really is no ADTOE/IaW thing. That whole crackpot theory was tinfoil hat level of comparison, and yet another case of MP intentionally force feeding fuel onto a non-existent fire. And yet people still bring it up as if it's more "proof". The only thing it's proved is MP's desperation to discredit DT without him.

Dude, I'm sorry, but there IS a ADTOE/IaW thing. It's not negative, but it's definitely there. When a friend first told me about the OTBOA/PMU similarity, I told him he's talking bs. But then I actually sat down and compared and it's true. It follows the exact same structure. Same with LNF/UAGM and BAL/LTL. I see it as a very cool thing, but you can't deny that it's there. You can tell me what you want. Again: it's a very COOL thing and NOT negative and you may not notice it from only listening to ADTOE, but if you actually sit down and listen to each song respectively, compare the single bits and the structure, you can't deny that this is some intentional nod to IaW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIX7WkBl8nA&feature=related

[BlobVanDam]

Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.

And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.

[Rob24]

Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.

And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.

Okay I'm quiet, master.

[kirksnosehair]

Plagiarism is a huge freaking deal. Plagiarize in university and you generally get kicked out and you get a stamp on your records saying you did.

And given the fact that the core founding members of the band started out at a world-renowned music college, MP knows the significance of making such a allegation against his former band mates.  It's pretty much the nastiest thing he could accuse them of. 

[BlobVanDam]

Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.

And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.

Okay, I'm quiet, master.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as a dick, I'm just burned out on that whole thing after the numerous threads on it the first time around.

[ZKX-2099]

If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.

Wait... Mario Party 4 ripped off Images & Words?

[Rob24]

Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.

And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.

Okay, I'm quiet, master.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as a dick, I'm just burned out on that whole thing after the numerous threads on it the first time around.

So, you don't think it was intentional? Because that was the only thing I was saying (hence the "it's not negative").

[hefdaddy42]

This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.

Really?

Really?

I was hoping the speaking "American" would be the biggest hint that I was joking.

Well, knowing you, I was really hoping that was the case. 

If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.

That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know!

Don't think I didn't consider the very same thing myself.

DO IT



As far as the ADTOE/I&W thing, I see some similarities between PMU and OTBOA, and some similarities between BAI and LTL (the beginnings of the songs), but that's it.  And there is no problem with either.

[BlobVanDam]

So, you don't think it was intentional? Because that was the only thing I was saying (hence the "it's not negative").

I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying it just because I perceive it as negative (which I don't). I hear the basis for the comparison of OTBOA/PMU, and the intro/chorus of LNF reminded me of UAGM from the start, but aside from that I found the rest of that comparison to be very forced based on trying to expand on the idea, and ignored a lot of what didn't fit the theory imo.

[Rob24]

So, you don't think it was intentional? Because that was the only thing I was saying (hence the "it's not negative").

I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying it just because I perceive it as negative (which I don't). I hear the basis for the comparison of OTBOA/PMU, and the intro/chorus of LNF reminded me of UAGM from the start, but aside from that I found the rest of that comparison to be very forced based on trying to expand on the idea, and ignored a lot of what didn't fit the theory imo.

Well, that sounds like the only two options are there are either slight similarities or it is completely structurally copied. I think it's neither - there are strong structural similarities. That's why some things do not fit of course, but it's more than just a chorus.

For example check out 04:45 in LTL and 05:02 in BAI. I just feel it's an hommage to that amazing Kevin Moore moment being the beginning of the instrumental section for both songs. And that's a very awesome thing.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, that sounds like the only two options are there are either slight similarities or it is completely structurally copied. I think it's neither - there are strong structural similarities. That's why some things do not fit of course, but it's more than just a chorus.

Aside from OTBOA, I don't believe any of them were strong structural similarities, which to me disproves that there was any intentional influence going on. I find the rest to be coincidental similarities, or similarities that people are only looking for because of the theory. I could say the piano break in Blind Faith is an intentional nugget to the LTL piano section, and it's just as valid a theory, but nobody mentions it because they're not trying to force it to fit a theory.
Most of the IaW/ADTOE comparison feels like he found a few vague similarities, then went looking for more to try and fit the idea. To me it's the very definition of a conspiracy theory.

And again, I'd like to reiterate that either way, I don't see it as a bad thing. A structural similarity is a fairly trivial thing for DT to copy from an old song, and musically they're completely different.

[Rob24]

Well, that sounds like the only two options are there are either slight similarities or it is completely structurally copied. I think it's neither - there are strong structural similarities. That's why some things do not fit of course, but it's more than just a chorus.

And again, I'd like to reiterate that either way, I don't see it as a bad thing. A structural similarity is a fairly trivial thing for DT to copy from an old song, and musically they're completely different.

Uhm, yeah, exactly. I tried to underline that as well. That was what I meant with "very cool" and "awesome".  Your response was "Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation."

Well, doesn't matter, back to topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fF8wU4Nl9Y

Blatant plagiarism, Mr. Portnoy, how couldn't you notice? 

[gmillerdrake]

I've listened to both songs back to back a couple times...and there is no denying the influence....but that's about it IMO. BMU/BMD was influenced by that song in the same veing as the handful of other DT songs that have been mentioned thus far were influenced by thier respective songs. That's it. To get all in a tizzy about how the heck a Verse/Chorus/Verse is placed or having the same 'sound' or 'feel' is silly.....Nothing new here other than the fact there is a very sour ex-member our there lamenting his decision to leave DT through high school like tauntings. For MP (or anyone else) to specifically imply outright plagerism is ridiculous, it really is. 

[BlobVanDam]

Yes, influence is a lot different to plagiarism. Solitary Shell has an obvious and intentional influence from Solsbury Hill to me, but that's not plagiarism, and nor is BMUBMD in any way. I don't see how BMUBMD is any different to any prior DT song here.

Plagiarism is about directly lifting something musically, rather than merely copying a style or vibe. Reusing a chord progression, or a riff, or a melody is probably a bare minimum necessary to claim plagiarism in a court. Not sure that structure alone has ever been enough to claim plagiarism, especially as it's fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things. But plagiarism is a serious accusation regardless, and shouldn't be made as an off the cuff comment. It's disrespectful and slanderous imo.

[Mladen]

Plagiarism is about directly lifting something musically, rather than merely copying a style or vibe. Reusing a chord progression, or a riff, or a melody is probably a bare minimum necessary to claim plagiarism in a court. Not sure that structure alone has ever been enough to claim plagiarism, especially as it's fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Well, there you go.

The end.

[7StringedBeast]

I think by law, in order to plagiarize a melody, it has to be 8 notes in succession that are exactly the same.

[lyfeternl]

I think by law, in order to plagiarize a melody, it has to be 8 notes in succession that are exactly the same.

Though this indeed could be accurate, I highly doubt it. I mean, if this were the case, musicians wouldn't really have any room for creativity if they were too busy wondering if "this 8-note succession" had been used before.

Everything boils down to a "musical similarity" which in and of itself is highly ambiguous. Plagiarism in any artistic venue is a serious issue. Throwing around unsubstantiated accusations of such an act is pretty demeaning, especially in the way MP chose to do so.

Let's take a journey back to when we were toddlers: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all."

[Herrick]

Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube.  I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie."  It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine."  Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc.  Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.

My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better.  I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme?  I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up."  Art influences art.   It always has, it always will.

Anyway, I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering.

Argh! I hate it when they screw with the pitch/tuning to make it sound more similar. Butt yeah, they do sound similar...probably as much as this Red song sounds like that riff in Build Me Up Break Me Down.

Anyway, Dream Theater should love Portnoy right now. If this thread is any representation of their fans, Dream Theater will see that most fans are much more concerned with Portnoy's attitude than Dream Theater chooses to incorporate their..."inspiration" into their music

[Rob24]

Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube.  I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie."  It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine."  Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc.  Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.

My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better.  I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme?  I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up."  Art influences art.   It always has, it always will.

Anyway, I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering.

Argh! I hate it when they screw with the pitch/tuning to make it sound more similar.

"Making it sound more similar" is not the point of pitching it down / up. The point is that you can copy a melody in every key. The similarity is already there; changing the pitch only helps noticing it.

[Millais]

Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0

Sound familiar?  Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM

again, for me definitely not plagiarism, just influences. if anything it sounds like an Opeth riff which I can't put into my mind at the moment. but that's a completely different matter.

....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.

which we all know by now to be, of course, completely true! 

[AngelBack]

I'm not 100% sure of the time line,  but the Red album was released at the first of Feb 2011.  DT was in the studio, but weren't most of the songs pretty much written by then?  I could still see a little "flavor" rubbing off on JP at this time, but the thought of him running out to Best Buy to get the newest Red CD and (greedily ripping the wrapping off while fiendishly looking left and right) then  just happening to have a "new" song for the guys to hear, just doesn't work for me.

And I'm no song writer, but it almost seems that all the talk of copying structure, etc....well, seems it would be easier to write a new song than to try and take someone else's work and write your version while trying to change it just enough so that no one would notice....but I'm an admitted loyal fanboy.

[kirksnosehair]

It's far from perfect, but the Wiki on musical plagiarism provides a pretty good amount of info on the topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_plagiarism

[russellmania]

Personally I hate that the notion of musical plagiarism even exists in our society.  How can you plagiarize something artistic?  Some of the most legendary musicians of all time made careers out of 'plagiarizing' other works of art.  It was incredibly common among Classical and Jazz greats of their time.  As music become more of a business over the decades, the idea of plagiarism became more of a taboo, which I think is antithetic to the idea of art.  I don't think it's fair to tell an artist that they can't express themselves in a certain way because some other artist has already done it and holds the patent on it.  The more music becomes industry and the less it becomes art, the worse it is IMO.

I think the only thing artists should be able to claim as their own work for intellectual property reasons are recordings.  In other words, I think an artist should still have to pay royalties/secure licensing to sample another artists recording, since a recording represents a tangible asset.

[Jaq]

I'm not 100% sure of the time line,  but the Red album was released at the first of Feb 2011.  DT was in the studio, but weren't most of the songs pretty much written by then?  I could still see a little "flavor" rubbing off on JP at this time, but the thought of him running out to Best Buy to get the newest Red CD and (greedily ripping the wrapping off while fiendishly looking left and right) then  just happening to have a "new" song for the guys to hear, just doesn't work for me.

And I'm no song writer, but it almost seems that all the talk of copying structure, etc....well, seems it would be easier to write a new song than to try and take someone else's work and write your version while trying to change it just enough so that no one would notice....but I'm an admitted loyal fanboy.

I thought that the album was already written by then too. If that's the case, then, yes, I can't see JP hearing this song, saying HOLD THE PHONE and writing a new song to record based on how much he liked this CD.

Mind you I don't think that happened if the album wasn't written before February, but there you go.

[vulcandj]

Has anyone checked to see if RED has made any comments about this? (I have, but haven't seen any). I would like to hear their take on it. I did notice some pretty strong similarities in the structure, but nothing appears to be note-for-note.

[snapple]

Has anyone checked to see if RED has made any comments about this? (I have, but haven't seen any). I would like to hear their take on it. I did notice some pretty strong similarities in the structure, but nothing appears to be note-for-note.

'

They're probably taking the DT route and saying "lolMP"

[johncal]

This ADTOE / IAW thing keeps getting resurrected from the dead like Frankenstein. How about just letting it die? It's not even part of this threads topic. Just a distraction.

NOBODY is going to "convince" anybody to change their minds or believe them. Why waste your fingers...... like I just did.

[snapple]

This ADTOE / IAW thing keeps getting resurrected from the dead like Frankenstein. How about just letting it die? It's not even part of this threads topic. Just a distraction.

NOBODY is going to "convince" anybody to change their minds or believe them. Why waste your fingers...... like I just did.

Because, it's all a conspiracy - man. The Illuminati, cabal of Zionist bankers, New World order...look it up bro

[theseoafs]

Personally I hate that the notion of musical plagiarism even exists in our society.  How can you plagiarize something artistic?  Some of the most legendary musicians of all time made careers out of 'plagiarizing' other works of art.  It was incredibly common among Classical and Jazz greats of their time.  As music become more of a business over the decades, the idea of plagiarism became more of a taboo, which I think is antithetic to the idea of art.  I don't think it's fair to tell an artist that they can't express themselves in a certain way because some other artist has already done it and holds the patent on it.  The more music becomes industry and the less it becomes art, the worse it is IMO.

I think the only thing artists should be able to claim as their own work for intellectual property reasons are recordings.  In other words, I think an artist should still have to pay royalties/secure licensing to sample another artists recording, since a recording represents a tangible asset.

Plagiarism exists. It is a very real problem in the music industry (which is, by the way, unavoidably an industry).

Case in point: Sweet Little Sixteen ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzY28Unb3v0 ) preceded Surfin' USA ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKNM6fAiJjs ). The Beach Boys heard Berry's song and wrote Surfin' USA without giving Berry credit. Berry did work in composing the song which he did not get credit for when The Beach Boys modified it sparsely.

EDIT: BMUBMD, however? Not plagiarism. Not even a little.

[IronEarthTheater]

Look, if this were almost any band other than DT, it wouldn't be an issue.  Didn't Metallica rip off Motorhead? Or every doom band ever rip off Sabbath?  Or every power metal band rip off Iron Maiden?  There's a reason that those bands are influential - people are inspired by them.  Heck, DT has inspired lots of musicians themselves.  And here's another thing, this is not the core of the DT sound.  BMUBMD is not one of the better, or more representative songs from the album.  He was inspired by the song, and then used it.  More power to him.

Seriously, it's only because there is a cadre of hard core DT fans who are super into musicianship and take DT very seriously (and that's a good thing), that this is even an issue.  I was actually trying to explain the Thiago controversy to my buddy (who owns a number of DT albums, BTW), and he literally looked at me like I was crazy.  This is all blown way out of proportion.

Now, the real story here is the Portnoy thing.  Seriously, people just need to ignore him.  It's gotten to the point where it's just not worth it.   

[7StringedBeast]

It's really a shame what Portnoy posted.   I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous.  I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.

[johncal]

It's really a shame what Portnoy posted.   I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous.  I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.

Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....

[7StringedBeast]

It's really a shame what Portnoy posted.   I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous.  I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.

Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....

Yeah I agree.

[johncal]

It's really a shame what Portnoy posted.   I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous.  I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.

Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....

Yeah I agree.

Yeah, think of the kids (US)    Portnoy's just being a dick to us fans. It's like Dad saying mom's a slut.