Red - Feed The Machine vs. DT - BMU, BMD

[ReaPsTA]

Lame situation for Dream Theater.  Due to a weird string of coincidences, now Ultimate-Guitar is running a story about the possibility they plagiarized another band.  DT's held pretty strong to ignoring Portnoy-related drama.  But they can't really let this go.

[BlobVanDam]

But they can't really let this go.

Are you referring to the plagiarism accusation itself, or to MP's behaviour? I think their current approach of ignoring the drama is working pretty well, considering that both issues are complete hot air.

[tjanuranus]

It's because MP said the word plagiarize this story is growing. I made a cartoon that i think really tells the true tale of this story. You can read it here...

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=29984.msg1166871#msg1166871

[ReaPsTA]

But they can't really let this go.

Are you referring to the plagiarism accusation itself, or to MP's behaviour? I think their current approach of ignoring the drama is working pretty well, considering that both issues are complete hot air.

The plagiarism accusation.  Anything they can do to ignore the fact MP started it is a good thing.

There are two ways of handling media drama:

1.  Don't acknowledge it.  In theory, dignifying an accusation with a response gives it a validity it didn't have before.

2.  Acknowledge it right away.  In this case, the assumption is that ignoring something makes people say "wait, if this accusation wasn't true, why wouldn't they just say so?"

Because of the way culture has shifted, the first option almost never works.  People assume gossip has at least a kernel of truth to it.  You have to take control of the story immediately.

[BlobVanDam]

The plagiarism accusation.  Anything they can do to ignore the fact MP started it is a good thing.

There are two ways of handling media drama:

1.  Don't acknowledge it.  In theory, dignifying an accusation with a response gives it a validity it didn't have before.

2.  Acknowledge it right away.  In this case, the assumption is that ignoring something makes people say "wait, if this accusation wasn't true, why wouldn't they just say so?"

Because of the way culture has shifted, the first option almost never works.  People assume gossip has at least a kernel of truth to it.  You have to take control of the story immediately.

I guess either way it's a shitty position that DT should never have been put into. Because as you said, acknowledging it only gives it validity (and gives MP validity and perpetuates his exposure, which he doesn't deserve for throwing around accusations at his EX band), and also extra exposure that it wouldn't have had before. But even when DT deny things flat out, there are people who think there's a trick to the wording, or think they're lying anyway.
Whatever they do, there are pros and cons. I like that they're not playing into MP's tactics.

[Bertielee]

Guys, MP has succeeded in two points here :

1- Have people speak of himself (something he's always wanted  as he's always wanted attention to be given to him and just him)

2- Paint the guys in DT in a bad light once again and this time, it seems to work.

I'm repeating myself, but I'm really convinced there is something else going on we don't know about.

B.Lee

[Vivace]

Dream Theater should do the following

Send out a press release that states, "they don't plagiarize other bands." and two, sue Mike for defamation of character.

[nikatapi]

Or they could just not give a fuck.
They are at a terrific point in their career, people like their new music and i'm sure its mostly the hardcore fans who really look at every MP tweet and every "truthful" comment of his, so its not a big thing, at least in my opinion.

[?]

Or they could just not give a fuck.
They are at a terrific point in their career, people like their new music and i'm sure its mostly the hardcore fans who really look at every MP tweet and every "truthful" comment of his, so its not a big thing, at least in my opinion.

This. I think they're doing the right thing by ignoring Mike's negative comments and not talking about them (like Kevin Moore).

[hefdaddy42]

I don't think they need to do anything.   In public.

[Nest777]

The kindest word in all the world is the unkind word, unsaid.
-Jordan Rudess

Nuff said.

[snapple]

I don't think they need to do anything.   In public.

What about in private?

[kirksnosehair]

Hey, yeah, I made those comments on another board.  I wouldn't make comments like that on this board, because I don't think this is an appropriate format for that kind of over-the-top commentary.  That other place is somewhere that I let my hair down a little bit sometimes and vent my frustrations about certain things.

It's words, people, an expression of anger and frustration.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[emindead]

Both DT and MP are in the wrong here.

[Omega]

I don't think they need to do anything.   In public.

Ey, Tony, ya want me to put de squeeze on 'em, you just let lemme know, ok

[antigoon]

I find it funny that for all the rip-offey moments in DT history, THIS is the one that gets publicity

[skydivingninja]

I think its only getting attention for the same reason the "I&W/ADTOE" "similarities" were publicized: because Mike Portnoy made the accusations.  Or at least agreed with them.  Had Derek Sherinian, Kevin Moore, or Charlie Dominici said anything like "hmm...Endless Sacrifice?  More like 'Give Into Mendless Sacrifice,' amirite?" at the time of Train of Thought I'm sure UG or any equivalent site would have been all over it.  Same with Never Enough/Hysteria, Prophets of War/Muse and Queen, Constant Motion/Blackened, etc. etc.

[ZKX-2099]

I have seen nobody say this.

If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.

[ResultsMayVary]

Or they could just not give a fuck.
They are at a terrific point in their career, people like their new music and i'm sure its mostly the hardcore fans who really look at every MP tweet and every "truthful" comment of his, so its not a big thing, at least in my opinion.

This. I think they're doing the right thing by ignoring Mike's negative comments and not talking about them (like Kevin Moore).

This. They're better off just ignoring Portnoy anyway.

[Rob24]

I have seen nobody say this.

If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.

Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.

[gabeh1018]

the intro to the 1st chorus is similar, but after that not so much. Also, the chorus in build me up, is so much better. In songs such as these, choruses's are what make the song and I think Build me up is better. There are definitely much better tracks on the Red album besides the opener that we are discussing.

[Bertielee]

I have seen nobody say this.

If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.

Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.

Don't get your post : you say JP actually STOLE from Red?

B.Lee

[King Postwhore]

I hate the word steal when it comes to music.  I like to use influenced.  Sometimes you hear something that just infects you writing.

[Rob24]

I have seen nobody say this.

If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.

Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.

Don't get your post : you say JP actually STOLE from Red?

B.Lee

Huh? Sorry, but what's so hard to understand here? He said "nobody pointed it out already, but if John Petrucci really DID steal, he wouldn't put the album at the top of his list", so he was NOT just too lazy to write stuff or rubbish like that. And I said that some people already pointed that out and that statement is totally true. JP wouldn't do it; he didn't steal.

[DreamerTV]

But they can't really let this go.

Are you referring to the plagiarism accusation itself, or to MP's behaviour? I think their current approach of ignoring the drama is working pretty well, considering that both issues are complete hot air.

The plagiarism accusation.  Anything they can do to ignore the fact MP started it is a good thing.

There are two ways of handling media drama:

1.  Don't acknowledge it.  In theory, dignifying an accusation with a response gives it a validity it didn't have before.

2.  Acknowledge it right away.  In this case, the assumption is that ignoring something makes people say "wait, if this accusation wasn't true, why wouldn't they just say so?"

Because of the way culture has shifted, the first option almost never works.  People assume gossip has at least a kernel of truth to it.  You have to take control of the story immediately.

Generally speaking, i would be with you. But in this case, what would they obtain by saying "no we didn't"?. Would people who are actually thinking that they've copied the Red song then think "ok, so they didn't". The only proof DT have is the song itself, and if you thought, after knowing what MP said, that it's a plagiarism you won't change your mind.
I mean, in this case, once you've thrown the accusation, to hold the situation is almost impossible.
I think that DT are fortunate enough that MP reputation has gone incredibly down (and, from the bottom of my heart, i think he deserves all the hate he's receiving, especially for this last thing, which is the most disgusting he has done since his departure),  since ALL the comments i'm reading in some general music forums and sites it's something like "LoLPortnoy".
And as for the songs, there's a certain common vibe, but that's it.
 

[gentaishinigami]

I think this whole comparison is way overblown.  There is just the tiniest bit of similarity between both songs' intro+verse, but it's only a small one.  Anyone who says it sounds exactly the same and is a complete plagiarism, frankly, doesn't have a very good ear and/or brain.  They are only really similar in the respect that they are both drop D (or similar de-tune) using open strings or rapid pull-offs into open strings for a heavy riff.  That's pretty much par for the course in every song in drop D at some point though... so it's not a very good point against JP.  However, I'm pretty sure he just really loved the song and wanted to put a little bit of it into his work.  I'm occasionally struck by something when drawing or doing photography that I'm just captivated by and want to do something with it in a small way.  As stated numerous times in this thread, you would have to be a complete moron to plagiarize a song and then call attention to said song to the entire world shortly after you released yours by listing it as your #1 favorite album of the year.

Oh, and Never Enough is about a million times more similar to Stockholm Syndrome than this.  It literally sounds identical for a few parts, especially the intro and one of James' vocal melodies.  This barely even registers at all on the similar meter to me and the people I've A/B'd it for.  The chorus, the solos, the vocals+vocal melodies - nothing sounds even close to the same.  It's just an intro with a similar vibe that tons of drop D songs share.  Even some of my pathetic attempts at song "writing" on guitar produced a similar sounding bit at a couple of different points in the song!  It's just too easy to do and it sound decent.  There are tons of examples, but quite honest I barely listen to western music anymore outside of DT and a few select others so I'm not exactly the best person to point them all out. 

Calling this plagiarism on JP or DT's behalf is like saying Muse ripped off Lamb of God (Muse album came 5 months after LoG's) because of a 10 second passage at the beginning of Stockholm Syndrome sorta kinda has the same notes as a passage in Ruin about 1:00 in.  Never mind that there are tons more notes in the Muse version, it's sped way up, and the notes aren't even exactly the same, it's still plagiarism! *sarcasm*  The sad part is, I found that small similarity (which itself is quite a stretch) just now while looking for examples of this type of drop D riffing.  I've never heard a single LoG song in my life and I've only heard Stockholm Syndrome a couple of times when comparing it to Never Enough.  There is no telling how many similarities you could and would find if you have a better memory than I do and listen to more bands and genres.  I'm sure RED sounds similar to something out there to, and I bet they have to put up with this crap soon when they get more popular!   

(2003-09-29) Muse - Stockholm Syndrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XPYLIy3FWpk#t=7s
(2003-05-06) Lamb of God - Ruin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iFm9v0wvEnw#t=58s

Just to clarify, no, I do not think anyone above ripped off/copies/plagiarized anyone at all.  I think the similarity between the two songs is basically non-existant, but it's about equal to the DT/RED comparisons in my eyes.  I'm just trying to showcase some of the absurdity that goes on lately dealing with DT.  Sometimes they have been quite guilty of some things I'm not very happy with (looking at you Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome), but this is not one of those cases IMO.  Alternating open note heavy riffs like that are just too common, and there is seriously only so many notes and ways you could play it with a simplified open-type heavy riff like that.  IDK, I guess I'm probably preaching to the choir so to speak, but man it is ever annoying when people exaggerate things like this to the extreme. 

DT-land makes me sad these days.  Half the time or more they wind up in headlines it's because of some slanderous crap usually stirred up by you- know-who typically with an insulting "question" title along the lines of "Did DT copy it's most successful album cause they can't make it without MP?!" or "Did John Petrucci steal riffs from up-and-coming Christian rock band RED?!"  They avoid getting in trouble for saying things that they have no way of proving true by phrasing it as a question.  -_-;  Yeah, yeah, it's legal and such, but it's so annoying to see people game systems like that and harm others.

[DreamerTV]

They are only really similar in the respect that they are both drop D (or similar de-tune)

BMUBMD is played with a seven strings

[ehra]

It's, what, a 40 second similarity at worst out of a 7 minute song? That hardly consists of "plagiarism" in the world of media.


It's not like vast, vast majority of our media is really "original" anyway.

[Bertielee]

I have seen nobody say this.

If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.

Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.

Don't get your post : you say JP actually STOLE from Red?

B.Lee

Huh? Sorry, but what's so hard to understand here? He said "nobody pointed it out already, but if John Petrucci really DID steal, he wouldn't put the album at the top of his list", so he was NOT just too lazy to write stuff or rubbish like that. And I said that some people already pointed that out and that statement is totally true. JP wouldn't do it; he didn't steal.

No, that's just me, a misunderstanding. I also said earlier that had JP not put Red at the top of his list, noone would have ever noticed. Btw, I also think he didn't steal anything, pointing to the contrary is asinine.
So, we agree on that. Friends?

B.Lee

[Bertielee]

It's, what, a 40 second similarity at worst out of a 7 minute song? That hardly consists of "plagiarism" in the world of media.


It's not like vast, vast majority of our media is really "original" anyway.

Well, you know, the problem is not that it's only a few seconds that are similar, it's that MP, a professional musician and reknown drummer, has said that it's plagiarism. And this time, contrary to what's been said by some, I really think it could do DT some harm.
How in the hell can MP say he sent an e-mail congratulating the guys for their Grammy nom and just put that shit on the internet? Raise the Knife, anyone?

B.Lee

[ehra]

Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band?  It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.

It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.

[Bertielee]

Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band?  It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.

It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.

OK, I trust your for that. If you lose, you'll owe me a box of chocolates!  (no chocolate eater, pop corn eater will do.)

B.Lee

[a51502112]

Hey, yeah, I made those comments on another board.  I wouldn't make comments like that on this board, because I don't think this is an appropriate format for that kind of over-the-top commentary.  That other place is somewhere that I let my hair down a little bit sometimes and vent my frustrations about certain things.

It's words, people, an expression of anger and frustration.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Seriously Barry. Not that I dissagree with your comments elsewhere but, just because you say it there doesn't make it right when you're back on this forum. You can't pretend to be 2 different people. (Although you have the same user name on all 3 boards.)

Might as well just say it here.

[Rob24]

I think this whole comparison is way overblown.  There is just the tiniest bit of similarity between both songs' intro+verse, but it's only a small one.  Anyone who says it sounds exactly the same and is a complete plagiarism, frankly, doesn't have a very good ear and/or brain.  They are only really similar in the respect that they are both drop D (or similar de-tune) using open strings or rapid pull-offs into open strings for a heavy riff.  That's pretty much par for the course in every song in drop D at some point though... so it's not a very good point against JP.  However, I'm pretty sure he just really loved the song and wanted to put a little bit of it into his work.  I'm occasionally struck by something when drawing or doing photography that I'm just captivated by and want to do something with it in a small way.  As stated numerous times in this thread, you would have to be a complete moron to plagiarize a song and then call attention to said song to the entire world shortly after you released yours by listing it as your #1 favorite album of the year.

Oh, and Never Enough is about a million times more similar to Stockholm Syndrome than this.  It literally sounds identical for a few parts, especially the intro and one of James' vocal melodies.  This barely even registers at all on the similar meter to me and the people I've A/B'd it for.  The chorus, the solos, the vocals+vocal melodies - nothing sounds even close to the same.  It's just an intro with a similar vibe that tons of drop D songs share.  Even some of my pathetic attempts at song "writing" on guitar produced a similar sounding bit at a couple of different points in the song!  It's just too easy to do and it sound decent.  There are tons of examples, but quite honest I barely listen to western music anymore outside of DT and a few select others so I'm not exactly the best person to point them all out. 

Calling this plagiarism on JP or DT's behalf is like saying Muse ripped off Lamb of God (Muse album came 5 months after LoG's) because of a 10 second passage at the beginning of Stockholm Syndrome sorta kinda has the same notes as a passage in Ruin about 1:00 in.  Never mind that there are tons more notes in the Muse version, it's sped way up, and the notes aren't even exactly the same, it's still plagiarism! *sarcasm*  The sad part is, I found that small similarity (which itself is quite a stretch) just now while looking for examples of this type of drop D riffing.  I've never heard a single LoG song in my life and I've only heard Stockholm Syndrome a couple of times when comparing it to Never Enough.  There is no telling how many similarities you could and would find if you have a better memory than I do and listen to more bands and genres.  I'm sure RED sounds similar to something out there to, and I bet they have to put up with this crap soon when they get more popular!   

(2003-09-29) Muse - Stockholm Syndrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XPYLIy3FWpk#t=7s
(2003-05-06) Lamb of God - Ruin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iFm9v0wvEnw#t=58s

Just to clarify, no, I do not think anyone above ripped off/copies/plagiarized anyone at all.  I think the similarity between the two songs is basically non-existant, but it's about equal to the DT/RED comparisons in my eyes.  I'm just trying to showcase some of the absurdity that goes on lately dealing with DT.  Sometimes they have been quite guilty of some things I'm not very happy with (looking at you Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome), but this is not one of those cases IMO.  Alternating open note heavy riffs like that are just too common, and there is seriously only so many notes and ways you could play it with a simplified open-type heavy riff like that.  IDK, I guess I'm probably preaching to the choir so to speak, but man it is ever annoying when people exaggerate things like this to the extreme. 

DT-land makes me sad these days.  Half the time or more they wind up in headlines it's because of some slanderous crap usually stirred up by you- know-who typically with an insulting "question" title along the lines of "Did DT copy it's most successful album cause they can't make it without MP?!" or "Did John Petrucci steal riffs from up-and-coming Christian rock band RED?!"  They avoid getting in trouble for saying things that they have no way of proving true by phrasing it as a question.  -_-;  Yeah, yeah, it's legal and such, but it's so annoying to see people game systems like that and harm others.

Amen!

And @ Bertielee: Of course friends. I knew it sounded kinda harsh, but that wasn't intended. 

[Bertielee]

And @ Bertielee: Of course friends. I knew it sounded kinda harsh, but that wasn't intended. 

 

B.Lee