Author Topic: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?  (Read 2428 times)

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Offline tjanuranus

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Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« on: December 12, 2011, 09:21:55 PM »
A lot of the stuff in this video I have been saying for years but never thought to make a neat video out of it. Well this is some nice work!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T8Y1-VLjGQ&feature=colike

Offline abrahamclark

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 09:53:18 PM »
It's true that Christmas and many Christian holidays have roots in earlier religions.  The video is a bit nit picky pointing out nuances about the three wise men, Jesus' physical appearance in western art, etc. These things are known by many Christian scholars and they don't deny them.   Most people, today, celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus and as a time for giving, kindness and compassion.  Personally, I'm not Christian, but it's my favorite holiday to celebrate, along with Halloween-- another holiday with pagan roots.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 10:11:20 PM »
As celebrated today, Christmas has almost nothing to do with religion - paganism or Christianity. Christianity, and Judaism before, has a habit of shoving its celebrations into pagan holidays to make a point - "bleep you, it's our holiday." But that shouldn't bother anybody. I don't care. Any excuse to eat pecan pie counts as a holiday to me.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 10:25:29 PM »
Frankly, I think the reason why Christmas is so popular and Easter is not, is because the pagan elements are so likeable. And let's face it, Easter also only survives because it was able to tack onto the popular celebrations of spring.

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Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 10:26:19 PM »
I agree with almost everything in that video regarding the traditions of Christmas being given religious status.

However, there are some really basic things that he got wrong.  In order of appearance in the video:

1)  Luke 2:4 clearly states that Joseph and Mary traveled from Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem where Jesus was born.

2)  The angel appeared before BOTH Joseph and Mary.  Each account shows a different perspective.

3)  The magi (plural, no mention of number) and shepards visited at different times.  The shepards were local and visited the manger.  The magi had to travel and visited them in their house much later.

4)  He's correct about the mistranslation.  However, it does not mean non-virgin either, and just a few verses down in Luke 1:34, Mary says "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"  Sounds like a virgin to me.

5)  Nowhere in Matthew does it say that Jesus was born in a house.  In fact, Matthew 2 starts by saying that the arrival of the magi was AFTER his birth.  Not before, and not during.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 10:34:21 PM »
FW, the maker of the video isn't necessarily "wrong" about those things. There's just several ways of assembling the facts, depending on whether you want to make it work or not. E.g. your point number 2. That the angel appeared to both Mary and Joseph is your extrapolation, it is not stated anywhere. The skeptic will argue that if it had appeared to both, the authors of the gospels would have said so.

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Offline Gorille85

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 10:46:54 PM »
Chritsmas = buy stuff.

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 11:16:00 PM »
FW, the maker of the video isn't necessarily "wrong" about those things. There's just several ways of assembling the facts, depending on whether you want to make it work or not. E.g. your point number 2. That the angel appeared to both Mary and Joseph is your extrapolation, it is not stated anywhere. The skeptic will argue that if it had appeared to both, the authors of the gospels would have said so.

rumborak

Sure, maybe "wrong" is too strong a term.  But addressing your point, the evidence only points to the angel appearing to both.  No evidence suggests anything else.  Is it iron-clad?  No, but it's very probable, and the video pointing out the discrepancy as fact-proof of the bible being wrong seems more shaky to me.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 11:38:06 PM »
If Christmas proves one thing, it's that its pre-Christian pagan underpinnings are awesome. That part about getting up for mass in the morning (or staying sober enough to get their the night before)? Not so much  ;D

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 11:51:50 PM »
If Christmas proves one thing, it's that its pre-Christian pagan underpinnings are awesome. That part about getting up for mass in the morning (or staying sober enough to get their the night before)? Not so much  ;D

Amen! Err...I mean...   :facepalm:

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 11:56:23 PM »
Christmas is as Christian or secular as you, the individual, make it out to be. 

Do whatever; go to Mass; search for inner peace; eat good food; be capitalistic; protest capitalism; get hammered; stay sober; get naked, cover yourself with gasoline, and roll around in the nearest pile of leaves you see!  Feel free to do whatever you see fit as to how to go about staying true to the meaning you place upon the day. 

Or don't do anything at all; a day only contains meaning that you place upon it.  Perhaps you do not believe in Christmas having any sort of meaning.  That's perfectly good and reasonable as anything else.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 12:14:55 AM »
If Christmas proves one thing, it's that its pre-Christian pagan underpinnings are awesome.

I think it's remarkable how robust those pagan underpinnings are. They've been under attack by the various churches ever since Christianity got big, but have failed to even make a dent into them.
Personally I think it's because they so intimately tie in with the season they originated in. It's dreary cold and snowy outside; you want to celebrate something that makes your place pretty and brings the family together in such nasty times.

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 04:22:50 AM »
I agree.  Putting lights on my house puts me in the holiday spirit.  I dont synch them with popular pop songs, but it does look cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmALSVZgPKc&sns=fb
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline yorost

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2011, 09:46:43 AM »
I'm not sure why this is supposed to be revealing, though.  Christianity adopts look customs wherever it goes, what's hidden about that?  Jesuit undergrad theology looked these things in detail, for me, how can you understand any religion, much less your own, if you don't know its history?  Even growing up Catholic I knew many of these holidays were rooted traditions given Christian angles.  Heck, I remember discussing historical birth of Jesus vs Christmas birth even as young as elementary in Catechism.

...Halloween-- another holiday with pagan roots.
To be fair, Halloween is still only a pagan holiday.  All Saints Day and/or All Souls Day are the most common Christian versions, Nov 1 and Nov 2.  I don't think a lot of Protestant groups having any official holiday in that season, though, as it's mostly Catholic, Eastern, and Anglican.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2011, 06:17:05 PM »
I'm not sure why this is supposed to be revealing, though.  Christianity adopts look customs wherever it goes, what's hidden about that?  Jesuit undergrad theology looked these things in detail, for me, how can you understand any religion, much less your own, if you don't know its history?  Even growing up Catholic I knew many of these holidays were rooted traditions given Christian angles.  Heck, I remember discussing historical birth of Jesus vs Christmas birth even as young as elementary in Catechism.

Well, for one it puts all those "it's not holidays, it's Christmas!!" whiners into place, because what they are celebrating is 80% pagan in the first place.

rumborak
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Offline yorost

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 09:09:34 PM »
I don't know about that.  Regardless of origin, it is a Christian holiday that got commercialized.  Anyone that doesn't give a crap about any religious tie ins certainly doesn't need this to embrace the secular version.

Now, I am not a fan of secular Christmas, it really gets on my nerves sometimes.  I kind of wish it was only a religious holiday just to tone down society this time of year, but I wouldn't want to force that on anyone.

...but seriously, can't somebody not play such awful Christmas music in stores?

Offline emindead

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 10:01:36 PM »
If Christmas proves one thing, it's that its pre-Christian pagan underpinnings are awesome.

I think it's remarkable how robust those pagan underpinnings are. They've been under attack by the various churches ever since Christianity got big, but have failed to even make a dent into them.
Personally I think it's because they so intimately tie in with the season they originated in. It's dreary cold and snowy outside; you want to celebrate something that makes your place pretty and brings the family together in such nasty times.

rumborak
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Is there ANYTHING Christian about Christmas?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2012, 10:20:28 AM »
What gets me is that people seem surprised that Christianity has pagan elements in it. Cultures and practices shift from focus to focus. If you know your history this shouldn't be a surprise at all. Early Christianity spent most of there time with the pagans and most of their converts were pagans. However converts even to this day have a problem not separating what they were used to to new practices. Most of the time they would fall back into the old practices. Look how long it took the Jews in the Old Testament to finally give up paganism. The only way you are going to get the pagans to stick around is to bring in elements that they are familiar with but give it a Christian theme without turning Christianity into paganism. Instead of worshiping the snow gods or whathaveyou, worship Christ and celebrate the Incarnation. You simply shift their gaze. There shouldn't be anything wrong with this kind of culture adaptation as long as it fulfills the requirements of Christianity. The idea Christmas is null and void due to its pagan elements is a bit shallow. Judiasm also has pagan elements and so does Islam. Christianity as it went brought into it's teaching elements of the Enlighenment, the Renaissance, and Scholasticism.

When it comes to the Incarnation and birth, they really don't know when Christ was born. They have ideas but no exact date. Again, this shouldn't come as a surprise. It is rare to have exact dates of birth of individuals of that era unless you were a part of a society that kept excellent records, like the Romans did. But Jesus was born amongst the poorest of the poor.

Also the celebration of Christmas was most certainly not there from the beginning. Why on Earth should anyone expect that to be the case. Remember, what we have is an event and the witnesses of the event traveling to different places to spread the word of the event. You have Paul who had a LOT more resources and was able to travel farther than most spreading the Good News. At this time nobody was really reflecting on the early life of Christ, most of the reflection was on the Passion, Death and resurrection, an event that they witnessed. One the biggest reasons for the Gospels to be written was due to the death of the Apostles and therefore scholars were afraid the history would get lost unless it was written down. Thus comes the four gospels we know now and plenty of others that are not a part of the Bible. The Bible was put together due to the numerous gospels and writings and problems of followers not knowing what is "true" and what was made up by some wacko. Thus is makes sense Christmas came a little late, around the 5th century as the Church was a bit busy with heresies, persecutions by Roman Emperors who got a little fed up with the Christians not pulling their weight and getting a definitive text down for all the bishops to pass on to the faithful. Even then this idea that Christmas was just invented is shallow. Reading texts on the Incarnation should help anyone understand the kind of weight Christians put into Christmas.

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