Is it right for schools to keep unvaccinated children at home?

[carl320]

This has been news around my area for a few weeks.  A school district nearby has seen a chicken pox outbreak and have been urging parents to have their children vaccinated.  If parents don't, then their kids can't return to school for 3 weeks.

Article here: https://articles.wsbt.com/2011-12-01/chickenpox-outbreak_30465051

Personally I don't get why it's necessary to get a chickenpox vaccine.  I got it when I was in grade school, just like most people did.

Discuss.

[rumborak]

From what I understand it's not the children for which it is dangerous, it's the adults who can get complications.

rumborak

[Sigz]

What purpose is supposed to be served by making them stay at home? I mean, keeping the unvaccinated kids away essentially has the same effect as letting them come to school and get it, then stay home for a week. And the kids who are vaccinated presumably won't get it either way.

I suppose it could help protect the teachers/other adults though.

edit: ninja'd

[rumborak]

Also, sending unvaccinated kids to a place where there are kids spreading the virus is like throwing fuel onto a fire. They are trying to quell the outbreak.

rumborak

[carl320]

But wouldn't getting a vaccine at this time be too little too late?  If they have already been exposed, then what good can a vaccine do?

I can understand protecting the adults from the disease... I guess I'm under the misguided assumption that most adults have already had it.

[rumborak]

Nope, not all. My boss got it half a year back. And it didn't look pretty.

Whether the current vaccination works, I assume they did the math. If you get a immune response in a few days from the vaccine, that's more protection than without.

EDIT: Just like with Rubella, the real danger is for pregnant women, just looked it up.

rumborak

[pogoowner]

Interestingly enough, I didn't contract chicken pox until after I got the vaccination.

[kirksnosehair]

I have a friend who runs an infectious disease research lab at Case Western University and I asked him about this and and his one-word reply about parents who opt out of vaccines for children was, "Idiots"

[jsem]

You ought to make sure that your children gets smallpox at a very early age. To withhold 10-year olds from it is dangerous, because then they are running a higher risk as adults.

[Scheavo]

You ought to make sure that your children gets smallpox at a very early age. To withhold 10-year olds from it is dangerous, because then they are running a higher risk as adults.

I uh... I think you've confused smallpox with chickenpox.

[slycordinator]

From what I understand it's not the children for which it is dangerous, it's the adults who can get complications.

rumborak

This depends on if we're talking about adults that had chicken pox already or one that hasn't.

Because if you've already had chicken pox, being introduced to it again by kids that have it actually reduces your chances of developing shingles later on. And if you haven't, then yes you can get chicken pox as an adult and it's generally more severe than what you get as a kid.

[Fiery Winds]

I'm 25 and never had the chicken pox.  I only had one (experimental) shot when I was 3ish.  Am I going to die!?

[jsem]

You ought to make sure that your children gets smallpox at a very early age. To withhold 10-year olds from it is dangerous, because then they are running a higher risk as adults.

I uh... I think you've confused smallpox with chickenpox.

Yeah sorry. Thought we were discussing chickenpox.. lol. The don't sound awfully dissimilar in Swedish, got mixed up.

[Chino]

My mom used to want me to be around kids with chicken pox or kids who were just sick in general. I'm glad she did, I NEVER get sick. My immune system is so diesel I can't explain it. The only thing that does me in is my mold allergy.

[lordxizor]

The chicken pox vaccine seems really stupid to me. It's a basically harmless disease in kids. Getting the disease is much more effective at preventing further complications (such as shingles) than the vaccine from what I've read. Give the vaccine to those at risk for complications from it, otherwise we should just go back to the days of chicken pox parties.

[slycordinator]

And without the chicken pox vaccine, the shingles vaccine would be unneeded, as it's essentially a chicken pox booster (since they both are caused by the same virus) which you'd get automatically by being around kids that have chicken pox.

[bosk1]

Since the discussion has now mutated from "should kids be kept home" to the vaccination debate, my two cents:

Vaccination = Good, and perhaps necessary, to an extent
Over-vaccination = At best, unnecessary, and at worst, potentially very harmful

The problems are (1) that most "experts" do not take the time to acknowledge that there is a difference, and (2) we are far too dependent as a society on Big Pharm, who financially back most of the "studies" done on the issues, and who notoriously obscure a lot of the important data.  As a result, it is very, VERY difficult to make completely informed, educated decisions about there the line is for "over-vaccination," and Big Pharm likes it that way because if it is too difficult to make an educated decision, most people will err on the perceived "safe side" of just doing it.

[Chino]

Since the discussion has now mutated from "should kids be kept home" to the vaccination debate, my two cents:

Vaccination = Good, and perhaps necessary, to an extent
Over-vaccination = At best, unnecessary, and at worst, potentially very harmful

The problems are (1) that most "experts" do not take the time to acknowledge that there is a difference, and (2) we are far too dependent as a society on Big Pharm, who financially back most of the "studies" done on the issues, and who notoriously obscure a lot of the important data.  As a result, it is very, VERY difficult to make completely informed, educated decisions about there the line is for "over-vaccination," and Big Pharm likes it that way because if it is too difficult to make an educated decision, most people will err on the perceived "safe side" of just doing it.

Good post, Bosk.

My argument is that the education system did just fine for the last few decades without this over protection and the we should vaccinate this and vaccinate this more arguments. I understand there is concern, but all of this over protection needs to stop. We think terminal diseases are running wild now, what happens 300 years from now when no one's bodies were ever allowed to develope immunities naturally.

[kirksnosehair]

Well, I dunno, I'm getting MY information about vaccinations from someone who is:

1.) Extremely qualified (he holds a PhD in biology and runs an infectious disease research lab at a world-class university)

and

2.) Has no reason to give me anything other than his unfiltered extremely well-educated scientific opinion, based on current leading-edge knowledge gleaned directly from the trenches of the field of science where we get the vast majority of the information that helps us decide as a society what we should and should not be vaccinated against as children.

When I asked him about this topic this morning, he referred me to the 2011 Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedules on the CDC's web site (view them here if interested) and said anyone who is NOT giving their children these vaccines is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette with their children's health and well being."

The only reason this even came up with him is because I have a young great-nephew who is autistic and allergic to all kinds of foods and my niece asked me to ask him if it were possible that kids with severe food allergies could also have severe reactions to immunizations....apparently he's due for a couple of shots and they're concerned about the military doctors (who didn't diagnose his autism until he was 22 months old) not knowing what the hell they are doing and giving him an inoculation that causes a crazy reaction.

[Chino]

The only reason this even came up with him is because I have a young great-nephew who is autistic and allergic to all kinds of foods and my niece asked me to ask him if it were possible that kids with severe food allergies could also have severe reactions to immunizations....

I don't think there is a way of knowing if it will be 100% risk free in regards to reactions. People have died from teh flu shot. Everyone's body reacts differently. If he is has food allergies (no, I'm not doctor) I don't think it is too hard to imagine he'd have allergies to certain shots.

[yorost]

Interestingly enough, I didn't contract chicken pox until after I got the vaccination.

Not very interesting, actually.  Vaccinations try to mitigate a social problem.  We advertise them as making an individual receiving one as safer, but for some people the vaccine will cause an illness they otherwise would not have contracted.  They carry risks of complications and sometimes don't work.  It's part of why vaccinating everyone is usually an inefficient program, because, with a targeted smaller group receiving it, we can be socially just as effective  while avoiding putting risk of complication on everyone.  People don't take them for social benefit, though, so we say it is individually good and just try to get everyone to take them.

Flu is the most interesting case since it is yearly and the most visible, but it applies to just about any vaccine.

[antigoon]

I used to get really sick every year when I got the flu shot. I don't get it anymore. So far, so good.

[kirksnosehair]

I used to get really sick every year when I got the flu shot. I don't get it anymore. So far, so good.

It's interesting that you and Chino brought up the Flu shot, because this year my gastroenterolgist (who treats my HepC) told me NOT to get the Flu vaccination again.  I got unbelievably sick from it last year, I was down for about a week after the shot and didn't feel 100% for close to two weeks.  What's the fucking point? 

[yorost]

The point is social benefit, some subset of society getting it benefits all of society.  Getting it to avoid a flu individually is a bad reason (unless possibly that particular strain is extremely dangerous to you).  When you choose to take it you are adding a risk to get one of the flu strains in the vaccine as well as risking complications.

[kirksnosehair]

Yeah, I know what the point is, my question was of a rhetorical nature 

[slycordinator]

When I asked him about this topic this morning, he referred me to the 2011 Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedules on the CDC's web site (view them here if interested) and said anyone who is NOT giving their children these vaccines is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette with their children's health and well being."

I have a hard time believing that your friend stated that leaving out a vaccine for chicken pox is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette..." And the fact that you brought it up because of an autistic relative, I assume you either were actually asking him about parents that don't vaccinate at all or ones who veer dramatically away from the standard schedule.

[Scheavo]

One thing people aren't mentioning is that vaccinations will cause viruses to mutate, and potentially into something worse. Its an arms race, of sorts, and most of our medical studies don't look at long-term effects like this (I think the ones that do find evidence for what I'm saying). Not that that means we shouldn't push vaccination for some diseases, becuase we clearly should.

[rumborak]

That's an interesting point, Schevo, and yes, vaccination suppresses a certain virus population, which in turn means a different population has more "playing field". However, the problem is, viruses transform constantly anyway, so it's not as if you could arrest this and for example and keep a "stable" and harmless virus in the human population. So, vaccinations are still the way to go. It's just that the vaccines have to move along with the moving target.

rumborak

[kirksnosehair]

When I asked him about this topic this morning, he referred me to the 2011 Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedules on the CDC's web site (view them here if interested) and said anyone who is NOT giving their children these vaccines is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette with their children's health and well being."

I have a hard time believing that your friend stated that leaving out a vaccine for chicken pox is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette..." And the fact that you brought it up because of an autistic relative, I assume you either were actually asking him about parents that don't vaccinate at all or ones who veer dramatically away from the standard schedule.

Where did I even specifically mention the chicken pox vaccine?  (hint:  I didn't     )  I was asking him about vaccinations for toddlers and if there would be any reason to skip any or be concerned that an autistic child who has demonstrated that he's allergic to a lot of different food items might have a bad reaction to one of them.  He then issued a very heavy sigh and muttered something about ..."idiots who get their medical information off some random website..." but he specifically told me children should be immunized according to the guidelines issued by the CDC.  And this recent fad among parents to skip these vaccines or cherry pick the ones they think are OK is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette..."

There was a lot more to the conversation than that, I mentioned it here because I thought it was relevant.

[slycordinator]

Where did I even specifically mention the chicken pox vaccine?  (hint:  I didn't     )

The article and the discussion that ensued are related to actions taken specifically in response to that particular disease/vaccine. That's why I asked.

He then issued a very heavy sigh and muttered something about ..."idiots who get their medical information off some random website..." but he specifically told me children should be immunized according to the guidelines issued by the CDC.  And this recent fad among parents to skip these vaccines or cherry pick the ones they think are OK is "playing a risky game of Russian Roulette..."

1) To say that everyone who chooses not to follow the CDC schedule did so because they got information from a "random website" is plain ignorant of your friend.
2) And since your friend thinks that choosing vaccines to skip is playing Russian Roulette, then he really does think that chicken pox in particular needs to be vaccinated against.
3) And whether your friend thinks I'm some ignoramus or not, when I have a kid, I will fight to the death against having someone give my kid a vaccine that's got thimerosal (which itself is 50% lead). I'm not one of those that thinks this'll make them autistic, but I'd prefer not introducing lead to a kid's body while their brain is still in pretty active development. I know these are being phased out, but I will not allow it.

edit: And whatever your friend thinks, it is arguable to only vaccinate for diseases that are likely to kill you. Like there are hardly any cases of measles anymore due to vaccination, but the death rate had dropped by 97.7% in the 60 years prior to its introduction.

[kirksnosehair]

hmm, lemme think here.....on the one hand I have the advice and counsel of a PhD in biology who runs an infectious disease research lab at a world class college.

Or

on the other hand I have.....random guy on internet.

tough choice, I'll have to get back to you 

[slycordinator]

Since you like appeals to authority (a logical fallacy if you're keeping track), the information I got on the death rates for measles came from an MD working as a professor at the University of Washington.

But fine, look at me as some idiot on the internet and your research friend as the ultimate authority.

[kirksnosehair]

That's very nice 

[bosk1]

...whether your friend thinks I'm some ignoramus or not, when I have a kid, I will fight to the death against having someone give my kid a vaccine that's got thimerosal (which itself is 50% lead). I'm not one of those that thinks this'll make them autistic, but I'd prefer not introducing lead to a kid's body while their brain is still in pretty active development. I know these are being phased out, but I will not allow it.

Problem is, you can't tell unless you request the ingredient card for the specific vaccination, and you generally DO have to fight tooth and nail to get them.

[Orbert]

Where did I even specifically mention the chicken pox vaccine?  (hint:  I didn't     )

...

I mentioned it here because I thought it was relevant.

The topic at hand was chicken pox, which is widely regarded as "inconvenient but essentially harmless" for kids.  Your friend's statement that people who don't get their kids vaccinated are "idiots" was almost certainly in regards to much more serious diseases.

There wasn't even such thing as a chicken pox vaccine when I was a kid.  Everyone got it, you got it, you never got it again, problem solved.

Your friend has a PhD in Biology and runs a lab at a university.  Impressive.  But I would say that his comment wasn't particularly relevant at all.