Author Topic: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus  (Read 5023 times)

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Offline William Wallace

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Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« on: November 25, 2011, 08:36:03 PM »
My church is hosting another debate. Details here.
If you're in Sacramento or the surrounding area, come watch. It'll be fun. And you can meet me!

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 09:38:41 PM »
I am really tempted to try and make it, if only for the powdered donuts.  not sure how I would be able to make it back to LA by Sun AM but I will consider it

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 11:31:22 PM »
I am really tempted to try and make it, if only for the powdered donuts.  not sure how I would be able to make it back to LA by Sun AM but I will consider it
Come Friday evening.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 11:36:14 PM »
I would love to, but I won't be on the left coast at any point in the forseeable future.  I hope you have a good event.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 10:03:47 AM »
I am really tempted to try and make it, if only for the powdered donuts.  not sure how I would be able to make it back to LA by Sun AM but I will consider it

Get someone to fill in for you.  :)  You can stay out our house Saturday night.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 10:45:30 AM »
I am really tempted to try and make it, if only for the powdered donuts.  not sure how I would be able to make it back to LA by Sun AM but I will consider it

Get someone to fill in for you.  :)  You can stay out our house Saturday night.
We'll have a little DTF powdered donut social in the lobby.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 10:59:01 AM »
And a band thing in my garage.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 12:30:23 PM »
And a band thing in my garage.
I'm getting that feeling you get when you're seven and your mom says "you can have a sleepover." Ancient history+classic rock covers= :yarr

Offline bosk1

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 12:40:14 PM »
This is not the first time you have kind of creeped me out.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 01:10:05 PM »
This is not the first time you have kind of creeped me out.
When was the first time?

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 02:07:26 PM »
When you started posting.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 02:36:03 PM »
I didn't notice it is going on Fri also.  is it also during most of Sat?  I could just fly home Sat PM.

*wonders if staying at bosks house will increase post count*

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 03:50:14 PM »
I didn't notice it is going on Fri also.  is it also during most of Sat?  I could just fly home Sat PM.

*wonders if staying at bosks house will increase post count*
The debate is on Saturday.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 05:36:00 PM »
gotcha, thanks

Offline rumborak

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 08:34:27 PM »
WW, will there be any "ground rules" for the debate? That is, any sort of "permissible evidence" and non-permissible? I think it could be a very interesting debate if the playing field if well-defined, such as only historically verifiable evidence is allowed, whereas evidence requiring faith would at least have to be called out as such.
I find one of the toughest aspects in these kinds of debates is to delineate whether a pious person is arguing from objectively grounded evidence or faith-based one. They usually happily intermingle, since that is the person's very foundation of thought, so to speak.

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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 09:55:05 PM »
WW, will there be any "ground rules" for the debate? That is, any sort of "permissible evidence" and non-permissible? I think it could be a very interesting debate if the playing field if well-defined, such as only historically verifiable evidence is allowed, whereas evidence requiring faith would at least have to be called out as such.
I find one of the toughest aspects in these kinds of debates is to delineate whether a pious person is arguing from objectively grounded evidence or faith-based one. They usually happily intermingle, since that is the person's very foundation of thought, so to speak.

rumborak
No, there's no ground rule of that sort, except that Richard Carrier (the atheist participant) wouldn't let such a faith-based argument slide. I don't think the audience would either. There will be a good group of atheists and skeptics in attendance.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 10:18:40 PM »
I don't know how much influence you have on the thing, but IMHO I think it would make a big difference for the "informative-ness" of the event. Look at presidential candidate debates; unless there is some kind of refereeing, people will use whatever they feel will sway the audience the most.

For example, a key discussion point is bound to be Jesus' resurrection. Historical evidence hints at it being a later addition to the gospels. How do you referee between the two? Two people just claiming opposite things has little educational value. What IMHO the listeners should take away from the discussion is what exact part of the issue requires faith and which not. Because overall, people think it requires much less faith than it actually does. The ordinary believer thinks that most of the stories as written in the gospels are essentially established historical fact.

rumborak
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 11:12:27 PM »
I don't know how much influence you have on the thing, but IMHO I think it would make a big difference for the "informative-ness" of the event. Look at presidential candidate debates; unless there is some kind of refereeing, people will use whatever they feel will sway the audience the most.

For example, a key discussion point is bound to be Jesus' resurrection. Historical evidence hints at it being a later addition to the gospels. How do you referee between the two? Two people just claiming opposite things has little educational value. What IMHO the listeners should take away from the discussion is what exact part of the issue requires faith and which not. Because overall, people think it requires much less faith than it actually does. The ordinary believer thinks that most of the stories as written in the gospels are essentially established historical fact.

rumborak
Nah, I disagree. For one thing, both debaters are Ph.D. historians; they both know the subject well and if the other tries to pull any kind of chicanery, my guess is he'll be called on it. Neither is running for political office and both are being paid no matter the outcome, so I don't anticipate a say-whatever-will-win-the-argument style debate. After all, they have reputations as scholars to maintain. Making things up doesn't aid that effort.

For another, faith in the biblical sense is not belief without evidence. The apologist, again, knows this and won't attempt to argue from blind faith. That would be suicide in a debate of this nature.

The question of the resurrection being a later interpolation is one of the issues that will be in play, I'm sure. In any event, your view is not one shared by all scholars, even many on the liberal side date the empty tomb account very early. They say it was derived from a single source that predates all the gospels my several decades.

Offline abrahamclark

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 01:04:18 AM »
Was there a video of the debate posted anywhere?

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 08:59:48 AM »
Was there a video of the debate posted anywhere?
It didn't happen yet.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 07:39:28 AM »
Stop being evasive and just answer the question.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2011, 09:05:19 AM »
Stop being evasive and just answer the question.
But he can't handle the truth.

Offline abrahamclark

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 07:22:28 PM »
Was there a video of the debate posted anywhere?
It didn't happen yet.

Well then...

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 04:48:30 PM »
Any of you Northern California peeps going to make it out to this?

Offline Vivace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 04:51:16 AM »
I kinda wish I could since I've studied the history of this period and it's pretty much on the surface on my mind right now, but being in Rome, I guess that ain't happening. I do know that the idea of the resurrection of Christ being in late is shared by a very very small minority of scholars most of who seem to dismiss the very idea that almost all Christians in the 1st century were already celebrating a form of the eucharist which memorializes the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. I think there is a lot of confusion between the idea that the formulation wasn't complete yet and thus this idea that the full formulation marks when the resurrection was actually celebrated. This is not the case. The resurrection was mostly certainly on their minds as I do believe some Roman Procurators who wrote to Rome on how to handle wrote about these Christians believing the resurrection and return of the "Christ". History is most certainly grateful for the Romans for keeping such excellent records. If it wasn't for that, we would probably never know for certain much of this period of history of Christianity.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2012, 03:22:31 PM »
Here's a review of the debate. I'll have video this week, too.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2012, 07:46:17 PM »
Quote
... Jacoby took a shot at the Christ myth right out of the gate, explaining that most historians dismiss it for the fairy tale that it is.

WW, apologies if I read this too quickly or don't have a good enough understanding of the subject matter at hand, but what exactly does this mean?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2012, 08:43:44 PM »
WW, given your known stance on the subject, you're setting yourself up for criticism by, right at the beginning of the post, declaring the guy who agrees with your views to be the winner. No matter whether it's true or not, it rings hollow.

rumborak
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2012, 08:48:43 PM »
Quote
... Jacoby took a shot at the Christ myth right out of the gate, explaining that most historians dismiss it for the fairy tale that it is.

WW, apologies if I read this too quickly or don't have a good enough understanding of the subject matter at hand, but what exactly does this mean?
The Christ myth is the hypothesis that Jesus never existed. The apologist who participated in the debate (Jacoby) pointed out during his opening statement that almost no historian endorses it.

WW, given your known stance on the subject, you're setting yourself up for criticism by, right at the beginning of the post, declaring the guy who agrees with your views to be the winner. No matter whether it's true or not, it rings hollow.

rumborak
Good to know. By the way, there are another 900 words, including links to exhaustive sources, following that paragraph.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 08:54:25 PM by William Wallace »

Offline Vivace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2012, 11:50:45 PM »
Quote
... Jacoby took a shot at the Christ myth right out of the gate, explaining that most historians dismiss it for the fairy tale that it is.

WW, apologies if I read this too quickly or don't have a good enough understanding of the subject matter at hand, but what exactly does this mean?
The Christ myth is the hypothesis that Jesus never existed. The apologist who participated in the debate (Jacoby) pointed out during his opening statement that almost no historian endorses it.

Which is incorrect and I would love to see his notes on the matter. Most historians actually DO agree that Jesus did exist mainly due to the fact that Tactian, a Roman philosopher who is actually quite critical of the Christian, flat out writes about Jesus in one of his books which actually is a criticism of the Christians and an Apology for Paganism. Other documents exist as well that speak about a man crucified on the Jewish Passover which pretty much paint a more third person view of the events of Jesus right after the passover. I always find it interesting how these historical documents which are real and can be looked up get dismissed as frauds. Oh well. ;)

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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2012, 12:00:19 AM »
Quote
... Jacoby took a shot at the Christ myth right out of the gate, explaining that most historians dismiss it for the fairy tale that it is.

WW, apologies if I read this too quickly or don't have a good enough understanding of the subject matter at hand, but what exactly does this mean?
The Christ myth is the hypothesis that Jesus never existed. The apologist who participated in the debate (Jacoby) pointed out during his opening statement that almost no historian endorses it.

Which is incorrect and I would love to see his notes on the matter. Most historians actually DO agree that Jesus did exist mainly due to the fact that Tactian, a Roman philosopher who is actually quite critical of the Christian, flat out writes about Jesus in one of his books which actually is a criticism of the Christians and an Apology for Paganism. Other documents exist as well that speak about a man crucified on the Jewish Passover which pretty much paint a more third person view of the events of Jesus right after the passover. I always find it interesting how these historical documents which are real and can be looked up get dismissed as frauds. Oh well. ;)
I'm not sure if I was unclear. I completely agree with you. In the debate, Jacoby argued that the Christ myth is garbage.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2012, 12:58:02 AM »
Good to know. By the way, there are another 900 words, including links to exhaustive sources, following that paragraph.

Just so yak now, cause I found this out in a recent book, but extensive hyperlinks usually causes sensory and memory overload in people, and they come away knowing less and understanding less.

Offline Vivace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2012, 04:48:59 AM »
Oh... I just read that in the reverse then.  :facepalm: my bad.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 05:16:51 AM »
It was Tacitus.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Upcoming debate on the historical Jesus
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2012, 11:55:18 AM »
Oh... I just read that in the reverse then.  :facepalm: my bad.
:lol

I thought so, but wasn't sure.