Author Topic: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?  (Read 8713 times)

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Offline snapple

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2011, 03:31:12 PM »
If anyone has a history book handy, you'll see how much people get along now compared to 100 years ago.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2011, 04:49:55 PM »
If anyone has a history book handy, you'll see how much people get along now compared to 100 years ago.

In fact, Steven Pinker just recently published a book on that exact topic:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=steven-pinker-violence-is-lower-tha-11-10-18

Regarding the "two generations" figure, I doubt that tbh. 2 generations is 40 years, and even the most behind country can not be more behind than 10 years in this day and age. Most military advancements these days happen on the information processing side (that's where I get my salary from), and that mostly rides on available hardware. Which is available to everyone basically.

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Offline Riceball

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2011, 05:06:43 PM »
In response to the OP, I had some hopes yes. But I suppose I gave partisan politics in the US a bit too much credit. I liked Obama's reply to the failure last night, saying that these legislated budget cuts are not changing and he will veto any moves to do so - smart politics as well as smart in practise. The legislature needs a real kick up the arse for mucking up an opportunity like this, I mean its $1.5tn in cuts over a decade, so $150bn a year; the US economy is into the many many trillions of dollars, so its not like they are going to be raping the people or anything.

This last three year patch will likely go down in the history of the world as one of the worst instances of political shit fighting ever seen. Its just as if they simply don't understand the implications of poor action or inaction. Its not even about future generations, its about this generation that is going to be completely left behind due to poor economic policy and no opportunity.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2011, 05:56:28 PM »
I can only really compare this to Germany, but I have really never seen a country in such political dysfunction such as the US currently. The closest historical analog would be the Weimar Republic, where you had 3 separate forces vying for power but no real interest in working together.

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Offline snapple

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2011, 07:57:27 PM »
If anyone has a history book handy, you'll see how much people get along now compared to 100 years ago.

In fact, Steven Pinker just recently published a book on that exact topic:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=steven-pinker-violence-is-lower-tha-11-10-18

Regarding the "two generations" figure, I doubt that tbh. 2 generations is 40 years, and even the most behind country can not be more behind than 10 years in this day and age. Most military advancements these days happen on the information processing side (that's where I get my salary from), and that mostly rides on available hardware. Which is available to everyone basically.

rumborak

Is that in regards to people in general, or politicians? I guess I was very vague and I meant politicians.

Offline ddtonfire

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2011, 08:39:11 PM »
Yeah, politics hasn't really changed, it's just our perspective is further and further away from the days past such that nobody was there, and most people didn't pay attention in history anyways. Imagine if we righted that latter part.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2011, 08:58:30 PM »
I don't think most people didn't pay attention. Part of the historical dissonance is that none of us remember the political contentions that riddled the early Great Depression and the emergence of the New Deal, or the politics that divided our country, or anything of that sort.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2011, 09:26:39 PM »
I don't think most people didn't pay attention. Part of the historical dissonance is that none of us remember the political contentions that riddled the early Great Depression and the emergence of the New Deal, or the politics that divided our country, or anything of that sort.

It's pretty well documented. Political parties are the more similar now than they have ever been. People certainly did care back then. In fact, you'd have thousands of people showing up to rallies to hear speeches for several hours. Television sure has made it easier today, but people did pay attention where they could. Not everyone in the past lived in back country log cabins. Many (I'm pretty sure most) Americans lived in cities.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2011, 10:01:21 PM »
I don't think most people didn't pay attention. Part of the historical dissonance is that none of us remember the political contentions that riddled the early Great Depression and the emergence of the New Deal, or the politics that divided our country, or anything of that sort.

It's pretty well documented. Political parties are the more similar now than they have ever been. People certainly did care back then. In fact, you'd have thousands of people showing up to rallies to hear speeches for several hours. Television sure has made it easier today, but people did pay attention where they could. Not everyone in the past lived in back country log cabins. Many (I'm pretty sure most) Americans lived in cities.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or trying to correct me, but if it's the latter, I am agreeing with you, just so ya know. :p

And I don't think that's entirely true about our political parties, especially considering that they're about as polarized as ever, not including pre-Civil War divisions. Corruption makes parties similar, but their ideologies, at least as far as I'm concerned, couldn't be further.

Also the game of politics tends to make policies and individual actions more similar than the politicians and the parties themselves.
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Offline Riceball

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2011, 10:30:40 PM »
Hmmm, IDK, I think "people" (as in, the populus) tend to forget about political happenings pretty quickly. From my experience, people care most when the political game is beginning, when ideas are being thrown around and they can see what the potential impact is on them. Once things are passed, they don't care and move on to the next thing on the horizon - they know that they can't change what has been passed and they move onto the next battle. I think history shows that.

Its not so much cognitive dissonance as it is cognitive optimisation.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2011, 10:41:24 PM »
I don't think they always do a good job of moving on to the next battle... Reagan famously called Medicare a horrible thing for Elders and health care in this country, he was wrong, and then you had people holding signs saying, "Keep government out of my Medicare!" when Obama tried to reform the system.

Quote
Also the game of politics tends to make policies and individual actions more similar than the politicians and the parties themselves.

I'd disagree with this, the game of politics means people cantt even acknowledge they agree, when they do, because of who they are.

Offline Riceball

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2011, 11:08:03 PM »
Yeah thats actually a good example of what I mean, the system was introduced, people hated it because of what they thought would happen; system is in operation, people adjust; government tries to change the system, people get pissed again. There must be a term for that...
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2011, 11:46:54 PM »
Yeah thats actually a good example of what I mean, the system was introduced, people hated it because of what they thought would happen; system is in operation, people adjust; government tries to change the system, people get pissed again. There must be a term for that...

Conservatism, more or less. And I think what you're saying is true in a lot of cases. But I also meant how they obviously didn't learn from history, becuase history showed them government intervention in health care can be a very good thing. My own grandmother thought government should stay out of health care, when she loves, LOVES, her Medicare. It's like conservatives in this country forgot the system that was in operation, but they're still angry with the government trying to change the system.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2011, 05:38:42 AM »
Quote
Also the game of politics tends to make policies and individual actions more similar than the politicians and the parties themselves.

I'd disagree with this, the game of politics means people cantt even acknowledge they agree, when they do, because of who they are.

No, I agree with that. They disagree over the same exact policy for that very reason. :lol

Case in point: RomneyCare, which became ObamaCare.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2011, 02:41:49 PM »
Oh I gotcha, they're similar in their hypocrisy.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2011, 02:59:47 PM »
Not exactly what I was getting at, but close enough. :P
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Offline snapple

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2011, 05:59:11 AM »
I don't think most people didn't pay attention. Part of the historical dissonance is that none of us remember the political contentions that riddled the early Great Depression and the emergence of the New Deal, or the politics that divided our country, or anything of that sort.

It's pretty well documented. Political parties are the more similar now than they have ever been. People certainly did care back then. In fact, you'd have thousands of people showing up to rallies to hear speeches for several hours. Television sure has made it easier today, but people did pay attention where they could. Not everyone in the past lived in back country log cabins. Many (I'm pretty sure most) Americans lived in cities.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or trying to correct me, but if it's the latter, I am agreeing with you, just so ya know. :p

And I don't think that's entirely true about our political parties, especially considering that they're about as polarized as ever, not including pre-Civil War divisions. Corruption makes parties similar, but their ideologies, at least as far as I'm concerned, couldn't be further.

Also the game of politics tends to make policies and individual actions more similar than the politicians and the parties themselves.

Ah, I see we are in agreement for the most part.

If you look back, you'll find that politicians agree on more now than they ever have. It's more now that we agree on wanting the same result on most issues, but have different means. Very few issues (Abortion, Health Care, Taxes on the rich and such) have that polarization. Back with the Whigs and Federalists, they would want to slice each other's throats open over anything.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Did anyone really think that "super-committee" would get anything done?
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2011, 12:48:28 PM »
I don't think most people didn't pay attention. Part of the historical dissonance is that none of us remember the political contentions that riddled the early Great Depression and the emergence of the New Deal, or the politics that divided our country, or anything of that sort.

It's pretty well documented. Political parties are the more similar now than they have ever been. People certainly did care back then. In fact, you'd have thousands of people showing up to rallies to hear speeches for several hours. Television sure has made it easier today, but people did pay attention where they could. Not everyone in the past lived in back country log cabins. Many (I'm pretty sure most) Americans lived in cities.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or trying to correct me, but if it's the latter, I am agreeing with you, just so ya know. :p

And I don't think that's entirely true about our political parties, especially considering that they're about as polarized as ever, not including pre-Civil War divisions. Corruption makes parties similar, but their ideologies, at least as far as I'm concerned, couldn't be further.

Also the game of politics tends to make policies and individual actions more similar than the politicians and the parties themselves.

Ah, I see we are in agreement for the most part.

If you look back, you'll find that politicians agree on more now than they ever have. It's more now that we agree on wanting the same result on most issues, but have different means. Very few issues (Abortion, Health Care, Taxes on the rich and such) have that polarization. Back with the Whigs and Federalists, they would want to slice each other's throats open over anything.

See I don't think that's true. Granted I don't have any solid evidence for that, and I'm willing to learn if I'm wrong, but surely our images of early American politics are prone to some exaggeration, given our historical distance. Reverse goes for the FDR period and later, for the same reasons actually (tl;dr version: We weren't there, and all we have to go on is people's personal accounts). See for reference what I said about the politics of the two parties as they entered the Sixties.
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