Sepultura - proggy thrash?

Started by LudwigVan, November 19, 2011, 12:20:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

LudwigVan

When it comes to the biggest names in thrash metal, Sepultura flies under the radar, but I consider them the best-ever thrash band.   I guess they're an outlier of sorts, stemming from the fact that they're from Brazil, and that their vocals are harsher (more death metal-like) than your typicaly thrash.

Anyhow, I've been listening to them since the early 90's, having bought Arise when it 1st came out.  When I recently put on Beneath The Remains, instead of brainlessly headbanging away, I consciously tried to listen for some of the things that originally captured my imagination about this band.

Time changes.  Loads of them.  Sure they're fast n' heavy as fu&k, but within a given song, this band crams in a number of stops, starts and changes worthy of a 70s prog band.   It's just not quite as noticeable because they're seamlessly done at thrash metal speed.  And within those changes, they cram in a plethora of the juiciest heavy riffs. 

If any thrash metal band could be labelled 'experimental', then Sepultura has to be it.  This is borne out by the new rhythms they tooled around with on subsequent albums Chaos AD and Roots, sometimes to the dismay of fans of Schizophrenia and Arise.   

Fluffy Lothario

Sepultura were frequently brilliant, and certainly better than Megadeth and Slayer.

Roots is one of my favourite metal albums. As much as the album's sound is a blend of late eighties and early nineties variations of metal, I think there's something about it that feels like it sprung from the heart of hard rock and metal, in a similar way to Soundgarden.

Beneath the Remains is a favourite as well, though often, when I listen to it, I have to wonder how the album even works. Pretty much every track is just a dense tapestry of mid-to-high tempo riffs. There's very little in the way of variety from that one core sound. But the riffs and solos are so damn good the whole way, and the band do an amazing job of taking them and building coherent, interesting, well-structured songs out of them.

And your experience of this band is incomplete until you've heard the Under a Pale Grey Sky version of Kaiowas.

Ultimetalhead

Sepultura had a lot going for them. Beneath the Remains is definitely up there with some of the best thrash albums of all time. I wouldn't call them proggy by any stretch, but the stuff they started incorporating with Chaos AD and Roots (which ultimately ended up destroying them) was definitely more unique and interesting than Megadeth's foray into more accessible territory.

Nevermore is a good band to check out for some proggy thrash (particularly Enemies of Reality).

YtseBitsySpider

The drumming was brilliant which can give them a proggy feel so I understand that "feel". One of the things that I really enjoyed about the albums -pre Arise- was that most of the lyrics were written in Spanish and translated to English as best they could. If they rhymed yay, if not.....so fucking what the message was what was important. Chaos A.D was the beginning of the end for me. The wives/girlfriends of Max and Andreas took over managing the band and that was that.

Cavallera Conspiracy is an excellent return to form for the brothers.

MrBoom_shack-a-lack

Didn't find any other thread about Sepultura so i'll post it here.

SEPULTURA - Behind The Music With Eloy Casagrande

Fascinating seeing Eloy play, his energy and power is just out of this world. He's probably the epitome of a metal drummer today.

The only thing I would've wanted when listening on the latest single is that the drumproduction would've been a bit more raw in the mix to capture the power when he plays. After it kinda sounded a bit generic and flat to be honest.

wolfking

Arise is a classic, amazing thrash album.  I lost track of them in their later career but what I've heard from the new one sounds pretty damn good.

Working man

I've listened a lot, and still do, to Arise and Chaos AD. Never heard anything else...should do a bit of exploration!

Thanks for reviving this.

WM

jammindude

I was there when Beneath the Remains was released, and I can tell you I personally had never heard thrash played that fast, that TIGHT.   I had been listening to thrash almost from the very beginning.   Must of the extremely fast bands (Sodom and Destruction leap immediately to mind, but I'm sure there were several) mostly came across as just flailing, and didn't really tighten up until after they shifted gears and slowed down.   But when I first heard Beneath the Remains, it wasn't the speed that impressed me, it was how crisp and tight it sounded.   It was literally jaw dropping from the very first song.  I almost couldn't believe what I was hearing.   I want to say that maybe they were using a gate?  But if they were, it doesn't sound super obvious.  It just sounds like they were totally in sync.    And also, even though there wasn't much bottom end like someone mentioned, you could hear everything.   It was very crisp.  Like I could actually hear every individual note and it wasn't being lost in a wall of speed and sound.   

That album still blows me away every time I put it on.    Arise is similar.   It kindof comes across as BTR Part 2, maybe with the beginnings of the tribal experimentation that would come later.     

I still don't get the love for Roots.  That's where they lost me.   I love the experimentation of Chaos AD, and I consider that to be their most mature album.   But I just couldn't get into Roots at all.   Maybe I need to revisit.    And I've never spun a single post-Cavalera album.   But I suppose I should give it a shot because I've heard some of it is really good.   Just seems like it would be if Porcupine Tree tried to go on without Steven Wilson. 

Herrick

Schizophrenia, Beneath The Remangs, & Arise are one of my favorite Thrash Trilogies. Never listened to the first album. I've definitely heard Chaos A.D. & Roots but I don't remember much about them. I probably listened to them once or twice and forgot about them.
DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

jammindude

Quote from: Herrick on January 25, 2020, 06:17:37 PM
Schizophrenia, Beneath The Remangs, & Arise are one of my favorite Thrash Trilogies. Never listened to the first album. I've definitely heard Chaos A.D. & Roots but I don't remember much about them. I probably listened to them once or twice and forgot about them.

To me, the difference between Schizophrenia and BtR is jaw dropping.   After I first picked up BtR, I immediately went out and found Schizo.    I liked the songs, but I was immediately struck by the difference in tightness.   To my ears, I can hear the natural progression from Schizo to BtR, but BtR sounds FAR more disciplined.   

LudwigVan

BTR, Arise and Chaos AD is where their sweet spot is IMO.  I enjoy Schizophrenia even if it is raw and unpolished.  And while I do like Roots, it clearly moves away from prototypical thrash and into Nu-metal territory, a subgenre which I'm not crazy about.

Samsara

Quote from: Ultimetalhead on November 19, 2011, 05:19:38 PM

Nevermore is a good band to check out for some proggy thrash (particularly Enemies of Reality).

Amen. LOVE Nevermore. I could never get past Sepultara's vocals.

devieira73

I know it's a totally different animal of Sepultura's phase discussed here, but Quadra totally fits in the Prog Trash category IMO. It's like a trashier version of Machine Messiah, that already had more prog elements on it. Quadra is very strong on first listen! And the guitar and drum work  :metal :hefdaddy

Zoom E

Back in the 90s my co-worker had a world music party where everyone was asked to bring music from a different country. I brought Chaos AD. I think we got through about 3 minutes of the CD when the host said, er, okay, let's listen to something else  :lol

wolfking

Quote from: Zoom E on February 07, 2020, 03:24:13 PM
Back in the 90s my co-worker had a world music party where everyone was asked to bring music from a different country. I brought Chaos AD. I think we got through about 3 minutes of the CD when the host said, er, okay, let's listen to something else  :lol

I hope you left the party and are no longer friends with these people.

Zoom E

Quote from: wolfking on February 07, 2020, 04:35:42 PM
Quote from: Zoom E on February 07, 2020, 03:24:13 PM
Back in the 90s my co-worker had a world music party where everyone was asked to bring music from a different country. I brought Chaos AD. I think we got through about 3 minutes of the CD when the host said, er, okay, let's listen to something else  :lol

I hope you left the party and are no longer friends with these people.

Naw, I appreciate that Sepultura are extreme for most people's musical tastes.

DTA

Quadra is excellent. I know it's early in the year but it may actually be tough to top this as my favorite album of 2020. I haven't bought a Sepultura album since Against in 1998 and didn't like what I heard from Roorback and Nation but this is an excellent metal album with a lot of creativity and diversity. It makes me want to check out the few albums before this one now.

wolfking

Quote from: DTA on February 21, 2020, 05:42:57 PM
Quadra is excellent. I know it's early in the year but it may actually be tough to top this as my favorite album of 2020. I haven't bought a Sepultura album since Against in 1998 and didn't like what I heard from Roorback and Nation but this is an excellent metal album with a lot of creativity and diversity. It makes me want to check out the few albums before this one now.

All of this.  I checked it out because the songs released beforehand were great.  I don't know much Green era Sep, I think I own one older one but really know nothing.  This album sounds really impressive.  Some nice technical stuff going on here and I like Green's vocals.  I never realised Kisser had these types of leads in him either.  Will have to check some older ones too.

ChuckSteak

Proggy thrash is Voivod. And maybe Coroner.

devieira73

I suggest to you to listen to Machine Messiah, it's very similar in style, also truly a great album.
As for Derrick phase, I also love Kairos! It's like Sepultura doing a more classic metal approach.

DTA

Quote from: wolfking on February 22, 2020, 03:22:59 AM
Quote from: DTA on February 21, 2020, 05:42:57 PM
Quadra is excellent. I know it's early in the year but it may actually be tough to top this as my favorite album of 2020. I haven't bought a Sepultura album since Against in 1998 and didn't like what I heard from Roorback and Nation but this is an excellent metal album with a lot of creativity and diversity. It makes me want to check out the few albums before this one now.

All of this.  I checked it out because the songs released beforehand were great.  I don't know much Green era Sep, I think I own one older one but really know nothing.  This album sounds really impressive.  Some nice technical stuff going on here and I like Green's vocals.  I never realised Kisser had these types of leads in him either.  Will have to check some older ones too.

I feel like Andreas devolved into a chuggy nu-metal type guitarist in the late 90's/00's but he's absolutely killing it on Quadra. Green sounds great too though he's been consistently high-quality throughout everything I've heard. Eloy is an absolute monster on drums and delivers a really fun drum performance. I will definitely be going back in time to the last few albums and maybe even revisit Nation and Roorback again. Quadra may even beat out Arise and Beneath The Remains for me at this point.

DTA

Quote from: devieira73 on February 22, 2020, 05:55:24 AM
I suggest to you to listen to Machine Messiah, it's very similar in style, also truly a great album.
As for Derrick phase, I also love Kairos! It's like Sepultura doing a more classic metal approach.

I listened to MM at the gym this morning...another high-quality album. Where the hell did this band pull out songs like Iceberg Dances and Sworn Oath from? Excellent music

devieira73


wolfking


DTA

Quote from: wolfking on February 22, 2020, 12:24:54 PM
Quote from: DTA on February 22, 2020, 07:49:05 AM
Quote from: wolfking on February 22, 2020, 03:22:59 AM
Quote from: DTA on February 21, 2020, 05:42:57 PMQuadra may even beat out Arise and Beneath The Remains for me at this point.

Wow, that's a massive statement.

Arise changed my early teenage life back in the mid 90's and BTR is so damn cool, but Quadra is hitting something that mid-30's me hasn't felt in a very long time. I know it's probably an overstatement, but it might be the best metal album I've heard in many many years.

wolfking

Wow, double quote fuck up there from both of us haha.

Yeah, I'm listening to it again right now.  It's excellent, some really cool riffs.

devieira73

Really cool to see how Eloy plays with high complexity and energy at same time! Raging Void:
https://youtu.be/jTfTaPpEeEQ

Bentower

#27
Dude's a beast, a top tier drummer for sure.

It'll be interesting to see where Quadra settles for me, but I can imagine it dropping Roots from the third spot of my Sepultura favourites. (Chaos A.D. is número um, Arise dois.)

DTA

I'm really impressed with Eloy's drumming on Quadra. It might be one of the more interesting, nuanced, and varied metal drumming on an album I've heard since Ray Hearne on Affinity.

wolfking

Spun this one a few times, it's really impressive.  Will start working my way back maybe. 

If this is what 'new' Sepultura do, I don't understand why they still keep getting shit from the old fans.

DTA

Quote from: wolfking on February 28, 2020, 06:02:18 PM
Spun this one a few times, it's really impressive.  Will start working my way back maybe. 

If this is what 'new' Sepultura do, I don't understand why they still keep getting shit from the old fans.

Because metal fans only care about what they listened to when they were growing up (aka Max and Igor) and refuse to accept change. I've never listened to Cavalera Conspiracy or Soulfly but I can't imagine any of it is better than Quadra (or Machine Messiah).

Bentower

#31
Cavalera Conspiracy's latest album Psychosis sounded quite alright, it was intense and thrashy in an old-school way.

I reckon more and more fans of Max Cavalera's Sepultura will come around to giving Andreas Kisser's Sepultura a shot. His concoction is potent stuff.

wolfking

I don't think I've heard a single thing from Soulfly or CC.

Grappler

Cavalera Conspiracy is awesome, especially the first record.  Soulfly has always been a continuation of Roots, where Max has let world influences into the groove metal sound.  Starting with Dark Ages, Soulfly started getting a bit more thrashy, bringing the sound back towards the Chaos AD style.  The most recent Soulfly albums are more in line with Cavalera Conspiracy, being thrashier and more brutal than the earlier albums. 

The two bands are nearly identical in members and have become about who Max wants to play with.  Iggor drums is in Cavalera Conspiracy, and Max's son drums for Soulfly. 

Blabbermouth just posted something today that Max and Iggor will be bringing the "Arise Beneath the Remains" tour to the US, where Cavalera Conspiracy plays all Sepultura, primarily from BtR and Arise.  I will NOT miss that show if I'm free.   :metal

Grappler

So some of the comments about Quadra and Machine Messiah have me checking out those albums.  I LOVED Sepultura in the mid-late 90's and have always been Team Max since the split.  I bought Against when it came out, it didn't click, and I sold it and have never really paid much attention to anything else that the band has done since. 

I really dig Quadra and Machine Messiah after one listen.  I do have Kairos lined up too, and I'll check out a few others.  I gave Against another try earlier today and still have the same reaction 22 years later.