Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 4661 times)

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Offline livehard

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Free Will
« on: November 11, 2011, 12:04:12 PM »
Do you guys believe in free will?  I really don't understand how ther could be such a thing.  Of course, it depends on how you define the term.  But why is it rational to believe in anything other than there are certain atoms in your brain, that interact in certain ways.  And that this interaction makes you move & say certain words & have certain ideas.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 12:36:46 PM »
No.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 12:46:29 PM »
I've never heard of any credible argument that would lead me to believe that free will is anything more than an illusion created by our brains. I get why that can make people so queezy though. It is a very counter-intuitive concept.

The truth never seems to care what makes any of us comfortable.  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 01:10:36 PM by Podaar »
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 12:50:47 PM »
How does free will not exist? I wake up in the morning and choose to go to work instead of sleep until noon. I also just chose to buy an AK47 over an AR15.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 12:51:36 PM »
How does free will not exist? I wake up in the morning and choose to go to work instead of sleep until noon. I also just chose to buy an AK47 over an AR15.

What he^ said.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2011, 12:57:11 PM »
How does free will not exist? I wake up in the morning and choose to go to work instead of sleep until noon. I also just chose to buy an AK47 over an AR15.

What he^ said.
He examined the facts, determined which he thought was the superior weapon,  and then bought that one.  He's pre-wired to buy the better option,  not the lesser one.  Same thing with getting up to go to work.  "Sleep late and get fired?" or "go to work and remain employed?".  Self interest makes the decision automatically.  In both cases,  a strictly analytical decision. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2011, 01:03:51 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.

Offline Podaar

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2011, 01:09:38 PM »
How does free will not exist? I wake up in the morning and choose to go to work instead of sleep until noon. I also just chose to buy an AK47 over an AR15.

What he^ said.

Kirk, this may help...or not https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/you-do-not-choose-what-you-choose/

But he still had a choice. And made a choice.


Yet, he didn't choose what he chose to choose.  :lol
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2011, 01:12:44 PM »
Ok, now I'm confused.  :mehlin

I guess I should buy both!  ;D

Offline El Barto

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 01:22:24 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 01:28:12 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.

That doesn't really explain how one person can make a different choice about the same thing over the course of a week.

Monday:  I drank alcohol, even though it's highly risky for me
Tuesday: I realized I should not drink alcohol and decided not to

Same person, same activity, two different choices.


Offline bosk1

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 01:31:13 PM »
How does free will not exist? I wake up in the morning and choose to go to work instead of sleep until noon. I also just chose to buy an AK47 over an AR15.

What he^ said.

I completely disagree.

AK's and AR15's are both pretty weak.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 01:37:54 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.

That doesn't really explain how one person can make a different choice about the same thing over the course of a week.

Monday:  I drank alcohol, even though it's highly risky for me
Tuesday: I realized I should not drink alcohol and decided not to

Same person, same activity, two different choices.

You have a will

But is it free?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 01:38:14 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.

That doesn't really explain how one person can make a different choice about the same thing over the course of a week.

Monday:  I drank alcohol, even though it's highly risky for me
Tuesday: I realized I should not drink alcohol and decided not to

Same person, same activity, two different choices.


You aren't the same person on Tuesday that you were on Monday.  The consideration you put into it probably weren't the same, either.

An example I've used in the past:

Henry Lucas's mother was a prostitute.  When she got too old and haggard to make money on her back,  she put a wig on Henry and pimped him out.  Somewhere along the line he developed a sense of hostility towards women--go figure.  He went on to become a serial killer of some notoriety.  Depending on who you asked,  he killed between 4 and 200+ women; nobody really knows since he was also prone to exaggeration. 

If his trial had been some NBC prime time drama,  some asshole prosecutor would have told a jury "this animal made a conscious decision to murder that sweet young girl!"  That's actually a logical conclusion if you believe the religious mumbo-jumbo that we're free to make decisions independent of who and what we are.  I disagree with that.  I don't think that Lucas made a decision to do jack shit.  He was a monster created over the duration of his life.  His decision making process was a work in progress that began when he was born and was evolving every day.  His mom would probably be the more guilty party in the whole unfortunate affair, if you ask me.  At no point did he wake up and say "today I will be a serial killer!" 

This actually raises an interesting point.  Livehard strikes me as the sort who'd have been all over executing his ass down here in Texas, yet he disputes the existence of freewill.  I'm curious how that would resolve itself. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 01:39:36 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.

That doesn't really explain how one person can make a different choice about the same thing over the course of a week.

Monday:  I drank alcohol, even though it's highly risky for me
Tuesday: I realized I should not drink alcohol and decided not to

Same person, same activity, two different choices.

You have a will

But is it free?

Given that I made two different choices within 24 hours on the same exact activity I'm going with yes.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 01:53:55 PM »
Given that I made two different choices within 24 hours on the same exact activity I'm going with yes.

I don't see how that proves freedom. The activity may be the same, but the events are not. For instance, the second night came after the first night, which does change quite a bit.

Now, I do think that some sort of free will does exist, I just don't think it exists all the time, in every event. Free will is a possibility, but not always a certainty. My only reasoning for this is evolutionary, as I don't get why there would arise something like consciousness, if not for the possibility of a free will. Our brains could handle everything on their own without consciousness, yet consciousness exists. Strikes me as fundamentally bizarre.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 01:54:15 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.

That doesn't really explain how one person can make a different choice about the same thing over the course of a week.

Monday:  I drank alcohol, even though it's highly risky for me
Tuesday: I realized I should not drink alcohol and decided not to

Same person, same activity, two different choices.


You aren't the same person on Tuesday that you were on Monday.  The consideration you put into it probably weren't the same, either.

An example I've used in the past:

Henry Lucas's mother was a prostitute.  When she got too old and haggard to make money on her back,  she put a wig on Henry and pimped him out.  Somewhere along the line he developed a sense of hostility towards women--go figure.  He went on to become a serial killer of some notoriety.  Depending on who you asked,  he killed between 4 and 200+ women; nobody really knows since he was also prone to exaggeration. 

If his trial had been some NBC prime time drama,  some asshole prosecutor would have told a jury "this animal made a conscious decision to murder that sweet young girl!"  That's actually a logical conclusion if you believe the religious mumbo-jumbo that we're free to make decisions independent of who and what we are.  I disagree with that.  I don't think that Lucas made a decision to do jack shit.  He was a monster created over the duration of his life.  His decision making process was a work in progress that began when he was born and was evolving every day.  His mom would probably be the more guilty party in the whole unfortunate affair, if you ask me.  At no point did he wake up and say "today I will be a serial killer!" 

This actually raises an interesting point.  Livehard strikes me as the sort who'd have been all over executing his ass down here in Texas, yet he disputes the existence of freewill.  I'm curious how that would resolve itself.

But I'm not the least bit religious, in fact, I'm a secular humanist, and I still believe that I made the decisions I made in my life.  I strongly believe it.  Of course, I agree that upbringing and our surroundings influence the decision making process, but I've already demonstrated that I've made two different choices concerning the exact same behavior within 24 hours of each other.  That doesn't really fit into this thing you're describing to me.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 01:55:05 PM »
Given that I made two different choices within 24 hours on the same exact activity I'm going with yes.

I don't see how that proves freedom. The activity may be the same, but the events are not. For instance, the second night came after the first night, which does change quite a bit.

Now, I do think that some sort of free will does exist, I just don't think it exists all the time, in every event. Free will is a possibility, but not always a certainty. My only reasoning for this is evolutionary, as I don't get why there would arise something like consciousness, if not for the possibility of a free will. Our brains could handle everything on their own without consciousness, yet consciousness exists. Strikes me as fundamentally bizarre.

Aren't you kind of having it both ways here?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 01:58:57 PM »
But I'm not the least bit religious, in fact, I'm a secular humanist, and I still believe that I made the decisions I made in my life.  I strongly believe it.  Of course, I agree that upbringing and our surroundings influence the decision making process, but I've already demonstrated that I've made two different choices concerning the exact same behavior within 24 hours of each other.  That doesn't really fit into this thing you're describing to me.
If you had been born in a different state,  or your father had been a slightly different guy,  would the decisions you made be the same?  More importantly,  would the factors effecting your decision be the same?  Simply put,  you didn't ask to be born.  You weren't consulted about to whom, where or when you were born.  You began a process with no control whatsoever, and it's been the ongoing evolution of that process that dictates who you are now.  Who you are now determines how you'll decide anything,  and will be different at each time because you'll be different.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline the Catfishman

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 01:59:37 PM »
But he still had a choice. And made a choice.
In a manner of speaking.  Yet,  it could also be said that he made the only choice that he was capable of making based on who and what he is;  two factors he had absolutely no control over.

That doesn't really explain how one person can make a different choice about the same thing over the course of a week.

Monday:  I drank alcohol, even though it's highly risky for me
Tuesday: I realized I should not drink alcohol and decided not to

Same person, same activity, two different choices.

but on different times thus the circumstances were different.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 02:00:17 PM »
Given that I made two different choices within 24 hours on the same exact activity I'm going with yes.

I don't see how that proves freedom. The activity may be the same, but the events are not. For instance, the second night came after the first night, which does change quite a bit.

Now, I do think that some sort of free will does exist, I just don't think it exists all the time, in every event. Free will is a possibility, but not always a certainty. My only reasoning for this is evolutionary, as I don't get why there would arise something like consciousness, if not for the possibility of a free will. Our brains could handle everything on their own without consciousness, yet consciousness exists. Strikes me as fundamentally bizarre.

Aren't you kind of having it both ways here?

It's some form of compatabalism, if that's what you mean; but not of the kind where if your locked in a prison, and you're not aware of it, you're free. More like, you program yourself, but your program runs without our control, if that makes sense. I can help effect my response to stimuli, but not in the moment. In the moment, it's all operating procedure.

I'm also disagreeing with your argument, not necessarily your position. I don't think the fact that you made two different decisions on the same day doesn't logically prove anything about the existence of non existence of a free will, only that there is a will.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 02:04:40 PM »
But I'm not the least bit religious, in fact, I'm a secular humanist, and I still believe that I made the decisions I made in my life.  I strongly believe it.  Of course, I agree that upbringing and our surroundings influence the decision making process, but I've already demonstrated that I've made two different choices concerning the exact same behavior within 24 hours of each other.  That doesn't really fit into this thing you're describing to me.
If you had been born in a different state,  or your father had been a slightly different guy,  would the decisions you made be the same?  More importantly,  would the factors effecting your decision be the same?  Simply put,  you didn't ask to be born.  You weren't consulted about to whom, where or when you were born.  You began a process with no control whatsoever, and it's been the ongoing evolution of that process that dictates who you are now.  Who you are now determines how you'll decide anything,  and will be different at each time because you'll be different.

But I'm still deciding.  You guys are have lost me on this one, sorry.  :lol

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 02:06:57 PM »
But I'm not the least bit religious, in fact, I'm a secular humanist, and I still believe that I made the decisions I made in my life.  I strongly believe it.  Of course, I agree that upbringing and our surroundings influence the decision making process, but I've already demonstrated that I've made two different choices concerning the exact same behavior within 24 hours of each other.  That doesn't really fit into this thing you're describing to me.
If you had been born in a different state,  or your father had been a slightly different guy,  would the decisions you made be the same?  More importantly,  would the factors effecting your decision be the same?  Simply put,  you didn't ask to be born.  You weren't consulted about to whom, where or when you were born.  You began a process with no control whatsoever, and it's been the ongoing evolution of that process that dictates who you are now.  Who you are now determines how you'll decide anything,  and will be different at each time because you'll be different.

But I'm still deciding.  You guys are have lost me on this one, sorry.  :lol

Deciding something is your will; if that will is free or not, you still decide upon things. If your decision making process is not free, then your decisions are equally not free.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2011, 02:11:41 PM »
Yep, that confirms it, I'm completely lost now  :rollin


Offline bosk1

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2011, 02:17:47 PM »
Yeah, I'm with KNH.  Scheavo, the "no free will" argument is just goofy and boils down to offering an excuse for escaping consequences of our (conscious) actions.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2011, 02:37:13 PM »
Yep, that confirms it, I'm completely lost now  :rollin
You make decisions every day.  However,  you're going to make the decisions based on factors beyond your control.  There's no freedom in your choice.  Who KNH is at any given moment will dictate what your decision is,  but who you actually are is beyond your control. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2011, 02:54:11 PM »
Yeah, I'm with KNH.  Scheavo, the "no free will" argument is just goofy and boils down to offering an excuse for escaping consequences of our (conscious) actions.

My argument isn't that we have "no free will". I'm arguing against Kirk's argument that we have a free will simply because he made two different decisions on different days. His argument doesn't answer El Barto's objection.

Quote
Now, I do think that some sort of free will does exist, I just don't think it exists all the time, in every event. Free will is a possibility, but not always a certainty. My only reasoning for this is evolutionary, as I don't get why there would arise something like consciousness, if not for the possibility of a free will. Our brains could handle everything on their own without consciousness, yet consciousness exists. Strikes me as fundamentally bizarre.

I guess a better example, to show what I mean, is that we're all locked in a room, but the key's inside: some of us don't know it, and they're not free; others of us know it, but can't find the key, and they're not really free either; others of us know that we're locked in the room, and have found the key. Free will is not something given to you, it is something you create for yourself, and something you have to exert. Otherwise, we fall into El Barto's scenario, where even though we could exercise free will, we just follow the path of least resistance, and basically end up being slave to our experience, and bodily desires.


Offline Ħ

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2011, 02:54:40 PM »
Maybe.  But it's more pragmatic to believe in free will to keep people accountable for their actions.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2011, 02:57:57 PM »
Maybe.  But it's more pragmatic to believe in free will to keep people accountable for their actions.

Yes, well, if we're not free, we really don't have a choice about that anyhow. So either way, we're going to be holding people accountable for their actions (it's either logically right, or we're determined to do it anyways); so pragmatically, it doesn't mater.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2011, 03:26:20 PM »
Considering this is a political and religious forum, yes free will exists, but since OP and the discussion in this thread are more scientific and philosophical (cause and effect), my final answer would be no.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2011, 06:05:39 PM »
Is PLM in jail? I don't understand this thread. ???

Offline juice

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2011, 10:44:12 PM »
It exists.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2011, 02:37:12 AM »
I believe in freewill as a "virtual freewill", where it's an emergent property of the deterministic brain. To us it's subjectively indistinguishable to the "real" thing (i.e. the theological freewill).

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2011, 03:05:19 AM »
It's relative.  Some people have more free will than others.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2011, 03:43:12 AM »
How could you ever tell? That is, without an objective measure of freewill, how can you compare one's subjective measure with another one's?

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« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 03:56:20 AM by rumborak »
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