Author Topic: Why young people leave church  (Read 16190 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2011, 10:48:48 PM »
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Bootstrapping =/= using what a source says as the starting point in proving an argument and testing that assertion against internal and external evidence as a means of proving the point asserted in the source.

I am still waiting for this.

???  What do you mean?

I'm 99% sure it was before the crash.

It's definitely possible I misremembered. If you're saying your belief is otherwise then that's pretty much that. Pretty sure that's not what happened in the thread, but it was awhile ago. Oh well.

I remember this as well.

Well, I'm not sure what to tell you.  As I said to ehra, I wouldn't have knowingly said that, so either there was a misunderstanding or you are not remembering it correctly.  Tell you what, I'll put it this way:  Let's assume the misunderstanding was totally on my part.  If I said that, I was in error, and *I* misunderstood what was being discussed, so I officially recant any such statement. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2011, 10:59:28 PM »
I mean, I haven't seen an argument for biblical infallibility that wasn't just bootstrapping, or else unconvincing for a myriad of other reasons. Perhaps for infallibility in regards to faith related issues I have, but certainly not for infallibility in regards to historical/scientific ones.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2011, 11:34:22 PM »
Yeah, but my point is that revisions are not supported by the evidence. Biblical scholarship is bigger than the Jesus Seminar.

I don't know. Isn't it almost just a question of time until another Hag Namadi comes around? What you consider currently as "safe interpretations" in the NT rests on thin evidence around the edges, with a good amount of blinders put on. If the churches went out right now and proclaimed "X,Y and Z are eternal and infallible truths", it's just a question of time (and historical evidence) until stuff gets nibbled away.

rumborak
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2011, 01:45:01 AM »
I'll probably be in the minority here, but I don't think it'd be such a bad idea of more Churches stopped with those kinds of proclamations.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2011, 02:09:18 AM »
I'm pretty sure the churches would like to lie low themselves too really, but they're forced into answering those questions, because that's what people want to know. I don't think the CC admitted to the heliocentric system out of their own volition.

rumborak
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2011, 04:21:36 AM »
PC, please tell me that you don't really think that 1 & 2 Timothy were written by someone named Timothy.

BTW, when Jesus told that rich young man to give away his possessions, that is what he told THAT young man.  He never said that was what everyone should do.  He told that man this because this man didn't own his possessions; his possessions owned him.  This guy needed to give away his possessions because his possessions and his clinging to them were what was keeping him from fully entering the kingdom.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2011, 04:26:16 AM »
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PC, please tell me that you don't really think that 1 & 2 Timothy were written by someone named Timothy.

Why would you think that?

EDIT: OH. lol. I forgot that those were supposed to be the writings of Timothy, not writings to him. Forgot about that  :lol
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 04:32:15 AM by Perpetual Change »

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2011, 10:14:34 AM »
I agree with PC.  any books written by Timothy are totally fallible  :lol

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2011, 10:41:20 AM »
Yeah, but my point is that revisions are not supported by the evidence. Biblical scholarship is bigger than the Jesus Seminar.

I don't know. Isn't it almost just a question of time until another Hag Namadi comes around? What you consider currently as "safe interpretations" in the NT rests on thin evidence around the edges, with a good amount of blinders put on. If the churches went out right now and proclaimed "X,Y and Z are eternal and infallible truths", it's just a question of time (and historical evidence) until stuff gets nibbled away.

rumborak
"Hag Namadi"?  :lol Probably just an accident, but awfully funny. Anyway, Nag Hammadi didn't reveal anything hidden. If anything, it confirmed what we already knew about Gnosticism. Though if one day archaeologists unearth some damning evidence, I'll calmly walk away from the church; but they haven't done it yet.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2011, 11:19:42 AM »
Well, considering that there's no evidence that could hypothetically disprove Jesus' ministry and resurrection, I think there's not going to be much chance of that.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2011, 11:39:13 AM »
Well, considering that there's no evidence that could hypothetically disprove Jesus' ministry and resurrection, I think there's not going to be much chance of that.
Nah. They could find his body buried in Palestine somewhere, or find out that one of the gnostic sects of Christianity was the original. Something like that would do it. But I don't think it will happen.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2011, 02:56:27 PM »
PC, please tell me that you don't really think that 1 & 2 Timothy were written by someone named Timothy.

BTW, when Jesus told that rich young man to give away his possessions, that is what he told THAT young man.  He never said that was what everyone should do.  He told that man this because this man didn't own his possessions; his possessions owned him.  This guy needed to give away his possessions because his possessions and his clinging to them were what was keeping him from fully entering the kingdom.

We've been over this a million times, but I just don't find that argument convincing. The gospels are littered with Jesus' call for rejection of people's every day lives (in order to join him), I don't think that passage is any different.

rumborak
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2011, 04:55:30 PM »
Yes, we have been over it a million times, and you are dead wrong.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2011, 05:15:21 PM »
I think the way rumby worded it, though, is pretty accurate.
while it is true that Jesus' specific challenge to the rich man was due to his specific problem, Jesus indeed calls all of his followers to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow him.  Whatever in my life I am not willing to surrender to follow him is the very thing I need to surrender. 

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2011, 05:17:16 PM »
And that's the bottom line, cuz stone bosk said so!

I agree with rumby though. As a Christian, I never understood that passage. It is literal and generalizing for all of mankind?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2011, 05:50:51 PM »
I agree with PC.  any books written by Timothy are totally fallible  :lol

I may have Herman Cain'd, but my main point still stands. I don't think Timothy includes anything passage that says "The Bible is infallible regarding science/history", but even if it did, I wouldn't see why it would matter.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2011, 05:51:12 PM »
As a Christian, I never understood that passage. It is literal and generalizing for all of mankind?

Literal, yes.  For all mankind, no.  It is directed at an individual, which should at least raise the question of whether it was what that specific individual needed, or if it is something commanded of everybody.  Jesus also told ten lepers to go wash in the river and told a blind man to let Jesus put mud in his eyes.  Are those universal commands too?  We have to put them in context.  Here, three facts strongly suggest that the only reasonable reading of that passage is that it was for that man only.  First, it was not the first thing Jesus commanded the man.  Jesus only told him this after Jesus had already told him what he must do (which was NOT "go and sell all your stuff"), and the man responded with, "Oh, I'm good then.  I've got that covered."  [paraphrase]  Second, Jesus frequently cited David and Abraham, both of whom were rich, as positive examples.  Third, Jesus does not command other rich men he comes into contact with, such as Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, for example, to sell all their stuff.  It simply cannot be argued that this was a universal command.

However, in the abstract, as Yesh mentioned, Christians are commanded in several passages to give up anything that gets in the way of God in their lives, whether it be money, power, or even family.  Although it is never explicitly stated, the context of Jesus' statement to the rich young ruler requires the reader to infer that love of money was precisely what was standing in the rich young ruler's way of serving God.  For others, such as Joseph and Nicodemus, it was not.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2011, 05:56:04 PM »
Alright, excellent explanation. Really clear on that point, thanks.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2011, 05:58:12 PM »
I agree with PC.  any books written by Timothy are totally fallible  :lol

I may have Herman Cain'd, but my main point still stands. I don't think Timothy includes anything passage that says "The Bible is infallible regarding science/history", but even if it did, I wouldn't see why it would matter.

when it says "god-breathed," are you suggesting that God doesn't know anything about science or history?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2011, 06:10:04 PM »
No, I'm suggesting Paul didn't.

Or, that God didn't think it was essential  to the spiritual well-being of his people to "correct" their misconceptions about history or science.

And, like I was saying, how does "god-breathed" automatically translate to "100 percent fact in matters of faith, history, and science"? Seems to me that that's kind of a forced interpretation. 

Just my two cents.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2011, 06:15:40 PM »
I agree with you about God not seeing it necessary to correct every misconception of man. 
but if it really is "god-breathed" than how could it be anything less than accurate?

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2011, 06:17:54 PM »
As a Christian, I never understood that passage. It is literal and generalizing for all of mankind?

Literal, yes.  For all mankind, no.  It is directed at an individual, which should at least raise the question of whether it was what that specific individual needed, or if it is something commanded of everybody.  Jesus also told ten lepers to go wash in the river and told a blind man to let Jesus put mud in his eyes.  Are those universal commands too?  We have to put them in context.  Here, three facts strongly suggest that the only reasonable reading of that passage is that it was for that man only.  First, it was not the first thing Jesus commanded the man.  Jesus only told him this after Jesus had already told him what he must do (which was NOT "go and sell all your stuff"), and the man responded with, "Oh, I'm good then.  I've got that covered."  [paraphrase]  Second, Jesus frequently cited David and Abraham, both of whom were rich, as positive examples.  Third, Jesus does not command other rich men he comes into contact with, such as Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, for example, to sell all their stuff.  It simply cannot be argued that this was a universal command.

However, in the abstract, as Yesh mentioned, Christians are commanded in several passages to give up anything that gets in the way of God in their lives, whether it be money, power, or even family.  Although it is never explicitly stated, the context of Jesus' statement to the rich young ruler requires the reader to infer that love of money was precisely what was standing in the rich young ruler's way of serving God.  For others, such as Joseph and Nicodemus, it was not.

best explanation of that passage ever.
thanks bosk

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2011, 06:21:41 PM »
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We've been over this a million times, but I just don't find that argument convincing. The gospels are littered with Jesus' call for rejection of people's every day lives (in order to join him), I don't think that passage is any different.

rumborak

Do you ever get tired of reading the Bible like a fundamentalist?


Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2011, 06:23:30 PM »
No, I'm suggesting Paul didn't.

Or, that God didn't think it was essential  to the spiritual well-being of his people to "correct" their misconceptions about history or science.

And, like I was saying, how does "god-breathed" automatically translate to "100 percent fact in matters of faith, history, and science"? Seems to me that that's kind of a forced interpretation. 

Just my two cents.

and if it is just Paul who didn't, Peter said the same thing.   "

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (II Pet 1:19-21)

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2011, 06:34:04 PM »
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We've been over this a million times, but I just don't find that argument convincing. The gospels are littered with Jesus' call for rejection of people's every day lives (in order to join him), I don't think that passage is any different.

rumborak

Do you ever get tired of reading the Bible like a fundamentalist?

I think your ability to ask this question undermines many of the arguments as to why the Bible is true, what it means, etc.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #95 on: November 15, 2011, 06:36:46 PM »
I agree with you about God not seeing it necessary to correct every misconception of man. 
but if it really is "god-breathed" than how could it be anything less than accurate?


I'll give two separate answers:

1.) We now know beyond reasonable doubt, thanks to the fossil record, carbon dating, etc, that the Earth is over 6,000 years old. So we must choose between two possible scenarios: either God's made the world inaccurate, or God didn't find it necessary to take an active role in correcting the misconceptions his followers had about it all. I find former notion much harder to swallow than the latter, because I can not see for the life of me why God would make the Bible and the Earth contradicting. So, no, I don't really believe that "God-breathed" means the same thing as "God-written," but more like "God-inspired."

Seperate, slightly more roguish answer:

2.) Why does what Paul said matter so much?


@Bosk, I agree that that passage is not a universal command. However, it seems to be like alotalotalot of Christians fail to consider for even a second that they may be seeing some of that anecdotal wealthy-man when they look in the mirror. I guess if I were wealthy, it'd be much more comfortable for me to gravitate toward the idea that I'm more like Joseph or Nicodemus than I am that other guy. Then again, I guess you don't *need* to be wealthy to learn from that parable. Normal people do a pretty good job of letting "things" get in the way of their spiritual health, too.






EDIT:

Back to Yesh,

That's a nice passage, but again I don't see where it says that The Bible is of historical/scientific fact. Peter seems once again to be speaking strictly about matters of faith.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2011, 07:05:32 PM »
Quote
We've been over this a million times, but I just don't find that argument convincing. The gospels are littered with Jesus' call for rejection of people's every day lives (in order to join him), I don't think that passage is any different.

rumborak

Do you ever get tired of reading the Bible like a fundamentalist?

I think your ability to ask this question undermines many of the arguments as to why the Bible is true, what it means, etc.
I think your freshman-year philosophy arguments have no place in this discussion.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #97 on: November 15, 2011, 07:27:49 PM »
I think your freshman-year philosophy arguments have no place in this discussion.

 :rollin

You should really try to be less condescending. Trying to say my argument's are "freshmen-level" is not only fallacious, but wrong.

The bible could very well be the word of god, but unfortunately for God, everyone interpretations things differently. Your augment that you can study the Bible, and thus come to a better, truthful interpretation of the Bible is just flat out fallacious. In the end, when you do that, you're bringing in your life experiences, things that are "outside" of the Bible. In the end, you can only say that you think the bible means this or that, but when you go and say that, "the bible means this," you're just ignoring your subjective perspective.

I mean, you have to ignore history to say that the Bible has a for-sure meaning that you can uncover.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #98 on: November 15, 2011, 08:20:09 PM »
@Bosk, I agree that that passage is not a universal command. However, it seems to be like alotalotalot of Christians fail to consider for even a second that they may be seeing some of that anecdotal wealthy-man when they look in the mirror. I guess if I were wealthy, it'd be much more comfortable for me to gravitate toward the idea that I'm more like Joseph or Nicodemus than I am that other guy. Then again, I guess you don't *need* to be wealthy to learn from that parable. Normal people do a pretty good job of letting "things" get in the way of their spiritual health, too.

Absolutely.  VERY well said.  And I myself am forced to confess my own guilt in that regard. 


Too bad the unquoted part of your post is such unabashed rubbish, because this part is actually really good.  :biggrin:
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2011, 08:35:31 PM »
As am I. I don't have enormous wealth, but I easily spend more time, for example, playing video games then I do thinking about God.

As for the other stuff, as I've said like 2000 times now, I'm still waiting to hear why I'm wrong  :lol I know people are busy and it's a big question, but even if someone could link me to a good article I'd at least read it. I'm not expecting someone to waste the time with a huge response when I'm probably just going to disagree anyway.

...Or if that's already been discussed/debated here in detail, I'd love to see the thread.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2011, 11:40:38 PM »
I think your freshman-year philosophy arguments have no place in this discussion.

 :rollin

You should really try to be less condescending. Trying to say my argument's are "freshmen-level" is not only fallacious, but wrong.
Well, let's have a look.

Quote
The bible could very well be the word of god, but unfortunately for God, everyone interpretations things differently. Your augment that you can study the Bible, and thus come to a better, truthful interpretation of the Bible is just flat out fallacious.
That doesn't mean that one interpretation can't be the correct one.
 
Quote
In the end, when you do that, you're bringing in your life experiences, things that are "outside" of the Bible.
Those "outside" influences are the works of historians and experts in the languages the Bible was written in.


Quote
In the end, you can only say that you think the bible means this or that, but when you go and say that, "the bible means this," you're just ignoring your subjective perspective.
No, I'm not. I am very aware that there are multiple interpretations of many biblical passages, and regularly study different perspectives. Indeed I'm willing to, and have, change my views. What you're describing sounds like thinly veiled relativism; it's freshman philosophy hackery and it's laughed at by historians who study this stuff for a living, whatever their theological views. 

Quote
I mean, you have to ignore history to say that the Bible has a for-sure meaning that you can uncover.
I don't. And I can't possibly think of what would lead you to that conclusion.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2011, 12:29:43 AM »
Quote
That doesn't mean that one interpretation can't be the correct one.

But how are you going to know it's the right one? People study the bible for their entire lives, and they come up with different understandings, and they still end up disagreeing with each other. I agree that there is one interpretation that can for all practical purposes be described as the "correct one," but just like the truth, while it's out there, there isn't very good access to it.

You're also being extremely naive if you think that the only outside influences are historians you choose to read. Your whole life is influencing how you interprets the bible, including how you interpret those experts you cite. The language you natively uses influences how you view the world in very fundamental way, and there's no getting around that. The society you grew up in also radically changes how you interpret the bible. Hell, the food you ate this morning effects how you interpret the bible. Furthermore, those historians and experts have their opinion, but that in no way means it's the correct interpretation. The bible was written in a language you don't know, in a world you can't relate to, and for reasons that frankly, you're only guessing and imaging is true because of faith. I'd say all these reasons are enough to throw into complete doubt your supposed rock solid interpretation of the bible.

I mean look, numerous people will use your exact same argument and come up with different responses. They're all supposed to be right, they're all suppose to have the correct interpretation. Imagine your an outsider, you're just getting into the mater, and you want to know who to trust. There's gonna be no reliable or rational way to distinguish between the interpretation's being presented, they're going to be researched, they're going to be carefully thought out, etc. And this is just staying within the confines of Christianity!

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I don't. And I can't possibly think of what would lead you to that conclusion.

As someone who has studied history, and not biblical history, I'm quite aware of the changes and alterations made to the way the bible is interpreted. Interpretations of the bible have changed along with the society, and reflects social and cultural realities, and not some supposed "truth" that you can uncover in the Bible. Different societies and cultures interpret the Bible differently, according to their values, and they can justify their interpretation by pointing to the Bible. I mean, the Bible isn't a small essay, and anything that is of considerable length is going to automatically spark differing interpretations becuase people are going to hold onto different parts of the text, and hold them in greater importance.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 01:54:06 AM by Scheavo »

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2011, 10:04:33 AM »
Quote
That doesn't mean that one interpretation can't be the correct one.

But how are you going to know it's the right one? People study the bible for their entire lives, and they come up with different understandings, and they still end up disagreeing with each other. I agree that there is one interpretation that can for all practical purposes be described as the "correct one," but just like the truth, while it's out there, there isn't very good access to it.
No. Precisely because the Bible has been the focus of such extensive (and critical) study, we know a lot about it. Fr example, when it was written, who (in many cases) wrote the books in it, what those people were teaching, etc. We also have, because we can place the events in the Bible in a secular historical setting, a lot of background information about the culture and the people described in the Bible. That helps us understand what they believed and why they did the things they did. 

Mind you, this all comes from the very concept you suggest should make the truth difficult to discover - different schools of thought arguing with each other in books and scholarly journals for the last 200 years.

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You're also being extremely naive if you think that the only outside influences are historians you choose to read. Your whole life is influencing how you interprets the bible, including how you interpret those experts you cite. The language you natively uses influences how you view the world in very fundamental way, and there's no getting around that. The society you grew up in also radically changes how you interpret the bible. Hell, the food you ate this morning effects how you interpret the bible. Furthermore, those historians and experts have their opinion, but that in no way means it's the correct interpretation. The bible was written in a language you don't know, in a world you can't relate to, and for reasons that frankly, you're only guessing and imaging is true because of faith. I'd say all these reasons are enough to throw into complete doubt your supposed rock solid interpretation of the bible.
Things like my native language and upbringing as influences go without saying. But that's precisely why I don't rely on those things when studying the Bible. True, the book was written in several languages I don't know, but many people I know of and some I know personally  do know those languages. Furthermore, I may not be able to relate to the ancient world, but I can learn a lot about it from people who spend their lives studying it, and for under $20 on Amazon. So, no,  I'm not guessing at the truth because I want to believe. My views about Christianity are pretty solidly grounded, and I suggest you venture into one of our threads about the Bible around here if you doubt that.

But if you want to argue that your reasons are enough to throw my interpretation into complete doubt, then I humbly submit that most of what you know about great thinkers and leaders of the past, the various philosophical schools, and so forth is plagued by the same subjective circle jerk you're challenging me with - and in a worse way.

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I mean look, numerous people will use your exact same argument and come up with different responses. They're all supposed to be right, they're all suppose to have the correct interpretation. Imagine your an outsider, you're just getting into the mater, and you want to know who to trust. There's gonna be no reliable or rational way to distinguish between the interpretation's being presented, they're going to be researched, they're going to be carefully thought out, etc. And this is just staying within the confines of Christianity!
Since you interjected when I responded to rumborak, let's use that as an example. Reading the text in English and German, rumbo was attempting to give definitive interpretations of certain passages in the NT. I and several others pointed out precisely why this wouldn't work (doesn't account for the original language, cultural setting, relevant history) and provided multiple scholarly sources to support the arguments. He responded incredulously, accusing us of ignoring the very obvious meaning of the text. In a situation like that, I say it is very possible to know whose interpretation is correct.

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I don't. And I can't possibly think of what would lead you to that conclusion.

As someone who has studied history, and not biblical history, I'm quite aware of the changes and alterations made to the way the bible is interpreted. Interpretations of the bible have changed along with the society, and reflects social and cultural realities, and not some supposed "truth" that you can uncover in the Bible. Different societies and cultures interpret the Bible differently, according to their values, and they can justify their interpretation by pointing to the Bible. I mean, the Bible isn't a small essay, and anything that is of considerable length is going to automatically spark differing interpretations becuase people are going to hold onto different parts of the text, and hold them in greater importance.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2011, 11:40:59 AM »
No. Precisely because the Bible has been the focus of such extensive (and critical) study, we know a lot about it. Fr example, when it was written, who (in many cases) wrote the books in it, what those people were teaching, etc. We also have, because we can place the events in the Bible in a secular historical setting, a lot of background information about the culture and the people described in the Bible. That helps us understand what they believed and why they did the things they did. .

Yet there are still such varying interpretations on so many aspects of the bible.
I think that is Sheavos point.
 

« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:54:09 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »
No. Precisely because the Bible has been the focus of such extensive (and critical) study, we know a lot about it. Fr example, when it was written, who (in many cases) wrote the books in it, what those people were teaching, etc. We also have, because we can place the events in the Bible in a secular historical setting, a lot of background information about the culture and the people described in the Bible. That helps us understand what they believed and why they did the things they did. .

Yet there are still such varying interpretations on so many aspects of the bible.
I think that is Sheavos point.

Yep. I mean, look at Indian philosophy/religion (in India, the two aren't properly separated, which, in my opinion, is more proper). They have like four thousand years of written and oral history surrounding their viewpoints; it's a highly philosophical society, one where debate is constant. And ya know what? After thousands of years of  debating, arguing, and trying to convince each other that this is the truth, they're no closer now than they were. Philosophy in general has been at it, in our history, for a good 2,500 years; you've had thousands of philosophers giving their arguments, spending their lives considering the truth, reading texts, etc, and yet no two philosophers will really even agree on what philosophy is or who a philosopher is! Then, arguably, Heidegger in the last century basically overturned just about everything those 2,500 years of philosophy worked to do.

The truth is that there is no truth.

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You're also being extremely naive if you think that the only outside influences are historians you choose to read. Your whole life is influencing how you interprets the bible, including how you interpret those experts you cite. The language you natively uses influences how you view the world in very fundamental way, and there's no getting around that. The society you grew up in also radically changes how you interpret the bible. Hell, the food you ate this morning effects how you interpret the bible. Furthermore, those historians and experts have their opinion, but that in no way means it's the correct interpretation. The bible was written in a language you don't know, in a world you can't relate to, and for reasons that frankly, you're only guessing and imaging is true because of faith. I'd say all these reasons are enough to throw into complete doubt your supposed rock solid interpretation of the bible.
Things like my native language and upbringing as influences go without saying. But that's precisely why I don't rely on those things when studying the Bible. True, the book was written in several languages I don't know, but many people I know of and some I know personally  do know those languages. Furthermore, I may not be able to relate to the ancient world, but I can learn a lot about it from people who spend their lives studying it, and for under $20 on Amazon. So, no,  I'm not guessing at the truth because I want to believe. My views about Christianity are pretty solidly grounded, and I suggest you venture into one of our threads about the Bible around here if you doubt that.

You can't not simply decide to get rid of all your memories and experiences when studying the bible, you can try and mitigate those effects, but it's impossible for you to get rid of them fully. Also, I have never once questioned that you've studied the bible, or that you don't have a researched opinion on the matter, nor that your opinion is not more valid than other persons; my point was simply that this does not make it the truth. People disagree, constantly, about what the Bible means in it's entirety. Oh sure, you can point to passages, and explain what they mean, and why they mean it, but you still have to ascribe the Bible as a whole. I could have all the parts to make a car, but unless I put them together in the right way, it ain't gonna be a car; you may have a fairly good understanding of each passage in the Bible, but unless you can piece them together in the right way, it ain't gonna be the truth.

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But if you want to argue that your reasons are enough to throw my interpretation into complete doubt, then I humbly submit that most of what you know about great thinkers and leaders of the past, the various philosophical schools, and so forth is plagued by the same subjective circle jerk you're challenging me with - and in a worse way.

So? What does that have to do with anything? I'm not pointing to dogma to make my point, I'm not saying that you're wrong because Aristotle says this. What I'm saying is you shouldn't take such a high and mighty attitude towards your interpretation, or that you're ever going to get "the one" interpretation.

Also, philosophy can't be pried away from theology; theology is inherently philosophical; so if philosophy is plagued by the problems I describe, so is theology.

Here's a different question: why should be a Christian and not, say, a Hindu or a Buddhist? Arguably, Hinduism and Buddhism have a longer history, and one full of debate, research, and thoughts on the matter. They too have ancient texts, whose contextual meaning can be gotten at, and which are used as a source of Truth.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 02:11:01 PM by Scheavo »