Author Topic: Why young people leave church  (Read 16130 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2011, 10:20:01 PM »
You're right, I think, that ordinary Christians need to be better informed and have at least some familiarity with biblical scholarship, but what you're suggesting is a sort of sanitized, ignore-all-but-liberal-scholarship version of Christianity, spurred on by people like John Shelby Spong. That's an unnecessary revision.

Why is it unnecessary? If history teaches anything, it's that all religions lose the battle on claims that are objectively verifiable. What's the point of keeping those things silently in, in the hope that the general public once again doesn't care enough to notice? If the Christian churches are really interesting in stopping the drain of people, continually moving the goal post a little isn't gonna cut it.

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2011, 10:34:36 PM »
Quote
The teachings of the churches across the world are pretty similar though, why would the Western churches be singled out to be the ones losing people due to its message?

They're sometimes as different as completely different religions. And it's the role the church has played in those communities that's playing the bigger part, not the "message". Churches like the RCC know how to be relevant to communities in Africa and South America. What they've lost touch with is how to be relevant in communties in EU and US, plus they've dealt with the scandals. I don't think that has anything to do with the Enlightenment, since most people still believe in God and Jesus.

Church attendance numbers are down. Belief is not down nearly as much.



You seem to be trying to frame a narrative where the Enlightenment has slowly been kicking in all these years and it's soon going to reach a "singularity" point where we wake up one-day in the near future to a world where no-one takes Christianity seriously anymore and everyone lives completely secular lives. That might happen one day, but I think it's much too simple of an explanation for why people are leaving their churches, and especially it doesn't take into account that people leaving their churches might, and usually do, still have deeply-held spiritual beliefs.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2011, 11:45:36 PM »
I don't think Christianity will disappear. I think it will settle on a percentage that reflects more accurately true believers, not just social Christians. Percentages in Scandinavia are probably somewhat a guide in that.

Regarding your quoted statistics, keep in mind that there's still a big stigma in the US to say you're an atheist or agnostic.

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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2011, 11:50:46 PM »
I don't think Christianity will disappear. I think it will settle on a percentage that reflects more accurately true believers, not just social Christians. Percentages in Scandinavia are probably somewhat a guide in that.

Regarding your quoted statistics, keep in mind that there's still a big stigma in the US to say you're an atheist or agnostic.

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This is true, I can't tell my mom or dad I'm Agnostic, because I'm afraid that they'd freak out and might disconnect from me, for at least awhile :C

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2011, 02:34:51 AM »
Yeah, I'd agree with the last two posts.

Also, my mom is a great example: when I was a teenager, she threw a fit when I told her I was agnostic (actually, I think I just told her I was a "deist", and she did not know what that was). She did not speak to me for days. Eventually, I wrote a letter about my new beliefs and left it on her bed, which she crumbled up and yelled at me for before resuming to not speak to me.

Now, she's equally frustrated with the Church, and barely ever goes to the same parish more than one week in a row, if she goes at all...

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2011, 04:58:56 PM »
If history teaches anything, it's that all religions lose the battle on claims that are objectively verifiable.

Exactly.  Your post highlights some of the biggest reasons the Catholic Church and other religious organizations have lost credibility throughout the ages:  being dogmatic about things they should not be dogmatic about that are later discovered to be provably false.  Thankfully, that is one area where the Bible proves time and again its infallibility.  Too bad the CC didn't stick to the source.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ehra

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2011, 05:09:46 PM »
I wonder how long it's going to be until the Christians of tomorrow say that the Christians here should have stuck to the source as well.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2011, 05:13:18 PM »
Depends on whether or not they are reading their Bibles.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ehra

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2011, 05:16:28 PM »
That's exactly what everyone else who came before and everyone who will come after you will say as well.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2011, 05:22:23 PM »
That's exactly what everyone else who came before and everyone who will come after you will say as well.

Not at all.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2011, 05:28:02 PM »
That's exactly what everyone else who came before and everyone who will come after you will say as well.

Not at all.

I don't know how accurate or generalizable this is, but I just finished reading the book Blood Done Sign My Name for a class and one of the major themes in that book is how people in the South used religion to justify slavery and then segregation.

It seems like, at least with regard to that topic, what people say "the source" says has changed a lot over time.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2011, 05:37:27 PM »
TOX, there's a huge difference between someone saying the Bible says something versus what it actually says.  The latter does not change regardless of the fact that the former may.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ehra

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2011, 05:47:23 PM »
Let's just ignore the gays, atheists, agnostics, people that are borderline, people that still haven't quite worked out their beliefs, people who believed in the wrong God, and people that just never got a chance to read a bible for the moment.

Doesn't it bother you just a little bit that all of these people who have read, are reading, and will read the exact same book as you are going to miss out on an afterlife with God because they read the same book you are to the best of their ability and comprehension and came to a different/wrong conclusion on one issue or another? That these people are just adamant as you are that their interpretation of His word is right and it turned out they were wrong despite leading what they were 100% sure was the life He wanted from them; that doesn't make you second guess yourself just a little? Do you really believe that they just 'didn't read their bibles,' or knew deep down that that they were wrong but chose to believe otherwise for some mystery reason like your last post implies?

If I were in your position I'd be horrified that so many people who thought they were saved weren't, and wonder what it meant for me. And if I were discussing such a matter with another person (who's own eternal soul is just as at risk) I certainly wouldn't dismiss their questions and points with what amounts to 'lol nope,' not if I were being honest with myself at least. Especially considering it's already been acknowledged on these forums that every Christian here willingly disobeys His word and won't be making it to Heaven anyway, regardless of our beliefs.


edit:

TOX, there's a huge difference between someone saying the Bible says something versus what it actually says.  The latter does not change regardless of the fact that the former may.

That's exactly what everyone else who came before and everyone who will come after you will say as well.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2011, 05:55:21 PM »
your point is very sobering, ehra.
not sure that anyone is suggesting that people who are genuinely trying to seek truth from Bible but are mistaken are necessarily lost.  If so, as you acknowledged, there is no hope.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2011, 06:05:39 PM »
TOX, there's a huge difference between someone saying the Bible says something versus what it actually says.  The latter does not change regardless of the fact that the former may.

Of course, but weren't we talking about what other people say the Bible says? :lol
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2011, 06:10:41 PM »
TOX, there's a huge difference between someone saying the Bible says something versus what it actually says.  The latter does not change regardless of the fact that the former may.

That's why there are multiple ways to approach "reading", rather than just accepting every word at face-value.
If history teaches anything, it's that all religions lose the battle on claims that are objectively verifiable.

Exactly.  Your post highlights some of the biggest reasons the Catholic Church and other religious organizations have lost credibility throughout the ages:  being dogmatic about things they should not be dogmatic about that are later discovered to be provably false.  Thankfully, that is one area where the Bible proves time and again its infallibility.  Too bad the CC didn't stick to the source.

I agree with about half of this. The Catholic Church has been dogmatic about things they should not have been, which is indeed a reason why they've lost credibility. I doubt we'd disagree on what those issues are, but I'd say the church's backwards sex teachings over the last 50 years has been a big one.

But the point about "sticking to the source" is bogus. Biblical infallibility is not the answer. Honestly, despite all the claims about Biblical Infallibility I've never once read a compelling argument for it. I'm never even read a good scripture-based argument for it.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 06:16:22 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline j

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2011, 06:25:02 PM »
But the point about "sticking to the source" is bogus. Biblical infallibility is not the answer. Honestly, despite all the claims about Biblical Infallibility I've never once read a compelling argument for it. I'm never even read a good scripture-based argument for it.

Some of the most inane arguments I've read/heard from otherwise apparently intelligent Christians have to do with this topic.  Like you, I have *never* seen a remotely convincing argument, even when I was a relatively devout Christian.

What's more, I hardly see why it's an integral belief, which makes it all the more baffling that so many people seem to desperately cling to such an indefensible doctrine.

-J
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:18:06 PM by j »

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2011, 07:05:23 PM »
what are you  meaning by biblical infallability?
do you mean whether the english translations reflect the original mss?
otherwise, I think of passages like II Tim 3:16-17 which seem clear that the original text of scripture is God-breathed and thus infallible

Offline j

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2011, 07:46:57 PM »
what are you  meaning by biblical infallability?
do you mean whether the english translations reflect the original mss?

I think both questions are relevant, among other considerations.

Quote
otherwise, I think of passages like II Tim 3:16-17 which seem clear that the original text of scripture is God-breathed and thus infallible

The fact that a scriptural text claims its own infallibility isn't very compelling if you don't assume it from the beginning.

-J

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2011, 07:48:39 PM »
Isnt showing the bible is "god-breathed and infallible", using bible text as proof, merely boot-strapping?
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2011, 07:53:44 PM »
what are you  meaning by biblical infallability?
do you mean whether the english translations reflect the original mss?

I think both questions are relevant, among other considerations.

Quote
otherwise, I think of passages like II Tim 3:16-17 which seem clear that the original text of scripture is God-breathed and thus infallible

The fact that a scriptural text claims its own infallibility isn't very compelling if you don't assume it from the beginning.

-J

I was thinking of PC's statement about not reading a good biblical argument for it, then you agreed about biblical infallibility.  since I can think of a number of biblical claims for it being the word of God, I thought maybe I was missing the understanding of what is meant by infallibility. 
I wouldn't argue that the current text we have is infallible.  I think it is pretty close based on how minor the differences are each time we find older mss, but it is equally clear that stuff has been added/taken away.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2011, 07:54:41 PM »
Isnt showing the bible is "god-breathed and infallible", using bible text as proof, merely boot-strapping?

not sure what boot-strapping is, but it sounds bad  :lol

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2011, 07:58:43 PM »
Isnt showing the bible is "god-breathed and infallible", using bible text as proof, merely boot-strapping?

not sure what boot-strapping is, but it sounds bad  :lol

A person cant pull himself out of quicksand by pulling his own hair up.  He cant pull himself up over a fence by pulling on his own bootstraps.  You cant say the bible is infallible and god-breathed because the bible says it is.
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2011, 08:04:17 PM »
oh, gotcha.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2011, 08:09:21 PM »
Especially considering it's already been acknowledged on these forums that every Christian here willingly disobeys His word and won't be making it to Heaven anyway, regardless of our beliefs.


I thought you made a good post but I didn't get this part.


Oh. Did you mean Catholic instead of Christian? 'Cos then it makes way more sense to me.

Offline ehra

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2011, 08:34:02 PM »
I'm talking about an old post where Rumby brought up the issue of Jesus saying you need to give away your possessions to get to Heaven. There was a lot of arguing, but at the end I remember Bosk saying that, yes, that is what those passages say, and we don't listen to them because it'd be an inconvenient way to live. Rumby asked for a clarification that he was saying that every Christian here isn't making it to Heaven and, to my memory, the thread died.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2011, 08:41:12 PM »
There was a lot of arguing, but at the end I remember Bosk saying that, yes, that is what those passages say, and we don't listen to them because it'd be an inconvenient way to live.

What?  No, I don't think that is what I said.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ehra

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2011, 08:44:39 PM »
I remember that part of the thread pretty well. I'm sure those weren't your exact words, but the general message of your post was 'yeah, you're right about Jesus saying this and it's a good reminder of how sometimes we don't follow His word because of X'

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2011, 08:47:10 PM »
what are you  meaning by biblical infallability?
do you mean whether the english translations reflect the original mss?
otherwise, I think of passages like II Tim 3:16-17 which seem clear that the original text of scripture is God-breathed and thus infallible

I'm not sure I follow.

Infallibility can generally mean one of two things:

1.) The bible is 100 percent perfect and factual in all matters.
2.) The bible is infallible in matters of faith, but not necessarily matters irrelevant to faith i.e. history, science.

The passage you quoted:

Quote from: KJV
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

To me, "inspiration of God" does not necessarily mean "inerrant, because of that." In context, what Timothy is saying here seems to be more like "All scripture is useful for spreading the word, and helping people become more righteous and cultivated in virtue".

Aside from that, doesn't it seem weird that this "infallibility claim" would obviously have been made before Timothy was actually included in "scripture"? If Timothy was talking about previous scripture, how could his infallibility claim also cover him? Who says Timothy is infallible, if Timothy wasn't talking about himself? If Timothy's not infallible, then what he says about scripture isn't either. It may be nice, and worth considering, but it is not unquestionable.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2011, 08:49:42 PM »
I remember that part of the thread pretty well. I'm sure those weren't your exact words, but the general message of your post was 'yeah, you're right about Jesus saying this and it's a good reminder of how sometimes we don't follow His word because of X'

Can you find the thread?  What you are attributing to me is pretty much the opposite of what I believe, so I think you either misunderstood or are misremembering.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ehra

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2011, 08:51:45 PM »
I'm 99% sure it was before the crash.

It's definitely possible I misremembered. If you're saying your belief is otherwise then that's pretty much that. Pretty sure that's not what happened in the thread, but it was awhile ago. Oh well.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2011, 08:53:19 PM »
Isnt showing the bible is "god-breathed and infallible", using bible text as proof, merely boot-strapping?

not sure what boot-strapping is, but it sounds bad  :lol

A person cant pull himself out of quicksand by pulling his own hair up.  He cant pull himself up over a fence by pulling on his own bootstraps.  You cant say the bible is infallible and god-breathed because the bible says it is.

Correct.

Bootstrapping = using solely what a source says about itself to prove the point asserted in the source.

Bootstrapping =/= using what a source says as the starting point in proving an argument and testing that assertion against internal and external evidence as a means of proving the point asserted in the source.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline bosk1

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2011, 08:55:03 PM »
I'm 99% sure it was before the crash.

Well, I have to repeat that either you misunderstood what I was saying, or you are misremembering.  I wouldn't have said that.  (unless I was either joking, which I don't believe would have been the case, or unless I simply mispoke)
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2011, 08:55:50 PM »
Quote
Bootstrapping =/= using what a source says as the starting point in proving an argument and testing that assertion against internal and external evidence as a means of proving the point asserted in the source.

I am still waiting for this.

I'm 99% sure it was before the crash.

It's definitely possible I misremembered. If you're saying your belief is otherwise then that's pretty much that. Pretty sure that's not what happened in the thread, but it was awhile ago. Oh well.

I remember this as well.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:02:51 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why young people leave church
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2011, 09:13:42 PM »
You're right, I think, that ordinary Christians need to be better informed and have at least some familiarity with biblical scholarship, but what you're suggesting is a sort of sanitized, ignore-all-but-liberal-scholarship version of Christianity, spurred on by people like John Shelby Spong. That's an unnecessary revision.

Why is it unnecessary? If history teaches anything, it's that all religions lose the battle on claims that are objectively verifiable. What's the point of keeping those things silently in, in the hope that the general public once again doesn't care enough to notice? If the Christian churches are really interesting in stopping the drain of people, continually moving the goal post a little isn't gonna cut it.

rumborak
Yeah, but my point is that revisions are not supported by the evidence. Biblical scholarship is bigger than the Jesus Seminar.