Author Topic: Is Christianity bad for America?  (Read 3536 times)

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Offline William Wallace

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Is Christianity bad for America?
« on: November 11, 2011, 11:04:57 AM »
Topic lifted from this debate between Dinesh D' Souza and David Silverman. I find this interesting because I depart from the Christian right on political issues like gay marriage and state sponsored religious programs, etc. Overall, however, I think D'Souza made his case. Christianity has benefited society more than it has harmed it. Thoughts?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 11:19:47 AM »
I think that's extremely hard to quantify. The thing that bothers me about Christianity as it exists for many Americans is that it often seems to be used as just another political tool to uphold the establishment.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 11:22:39 AM »
Yeah, it's a pretty tough thing to quantify.

Though I think the US could stand with a lot less of the Southern evangelical brand of Christianity.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 11:29:07 AM »
I think that's extremely hard to quantify. The thing that bothers me about Christianity as it exists for many Americans is that it often seems to be used as just another political tool to uphold the establishment.
Yeah, that I agree with. That's why I like that D'Souza didn't attempt to defend the Christian Right's political platform.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 11:34:51 AM »
No.  Americans are bad for America.

The problem isn't the religion.  The people suck and the system sucks.  Together,  Christianity becomes a tool; and a highly corrupt one at that.  If this were a Muslim country,  then the same assholes would be using Islam to make life unpleasant for us.  Similarly,  I can't help but notice that there are plenty of other Christian nations that seem to have their act together a helluva lot more than we do.
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2011, 01:40:02 PM »
I think that abandoning Judeo-Christian ideals, and instead looking to the "state" has helped destroy the American family.

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2011, 01:56:42 PM »
I think that abandoning Judeo-Christian ideals, and instead looking to the "state" has helped destroy the American family.

Seriously? I think a lot of 'socialist' not-so-christian nations such as the Scandinavian countries are much closer to the ' Judeo-Christian ideals' then American political parties who claim to stand for Judeo-Christian ideals but do nothing but increase the difference between the rich and the poor, do not take care of the weak in society and start unnecessary wars destroying families on both sides of the gun.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 02:04:23 PM by the Catfishman »

Offline bosk1

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2011, 02:01:29 PM »
I think that abandoning Judeo-Christian ideals, and instead looking to the "state" has helped destroy the American family.

Perhaps, but to put even more of an unwanted religious spin on it, I'd say you skipped a step.  Abandoning love of God and simply trying to codify a system of morals as "Judeo-Christian ideals" is problematic in and of itself because it only addresses the code of conduct and not the desire of adhering to that code of conduct, which makes it easier to argue the the code is arbitrary and can be disregarded and/or changed.


But to give a more direct, on topic answer, I love what Barto said (even though I'm sure we disagree on the particulars).  The problem is the people who take Christian beliefs and try to make them a tool to suit their own ends.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2011, 02:27:44 PM »
I have to agree with bosk here. Christians who focus less on the love of God are scary and can do much damage. But that is not Christianity's faults. People are idiots.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 02:42:13 PM »
Perhaps, but to put even more of an unwanted religious spin on it, I'd say you skipped a step.  Abandoning love of God and simply trying to codify a system of morals as "Judeo-Christian ideals" is problematic in and of itself because it only addresses the code of conduct and not the desire of adhering to that code of conduct, which makes it easier to argue the the code is arbitrary and can be disregarded and/or changed.

Well put.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 02:55:26 PM »
People are idiots.

And that's the true heart of the problem, whether you believe in Jesus, Vishnu or the power of your own ego.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 03:12:04 PM »
Perhaps, but to put even more of an unwanted religious spin on it, I'd say you skipped a step.  Abandoning love of God and simply trying to codify a system of morals as "Judeo-Christian ideals" is problematic in and of itself because it only addresses the code of conduct and not the desire of adhering to that code of conduct, which makes it easier to argue the the code is arbitrary and can be disregarded and/or changed.

Well put.

Really?  I mean, obviously, *I* think so.  But I wouldn't have expected that you would agree with that.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 03:27:37 PM »
Perhaps, but to put even more of an unwanted religious spin on it, I'd say you skipped a step.  Abandoning love of God and simply trying to codify a system of morals as "Judeo-Christian ideals" is problematic in and of itself because it only addresses the code of conduct and not the desire of adhering to that code of conduct, which makes it easier to argue the the code is arbitrary and can be disregarded and/or changed.

Well put.

Really?  I mean, obviously, *I* think so.  But I wouldn't have expected that you would agree with that.

I think the underlying premise is fiction,  but within the framework of that fiction it's an excellent and commendable sentiment.  One of my problems with Christianity is that I think people interpret the rules as they see fit, entirely to justify their own interests.  That's what makes it the perfect religion.  People should be more interested in doing the right thing for the right reasons, regardless of their religion,  rather than just figuring out what's allowed. 
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Offline tofee35

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 04:23:30 PM »
No.  Americans are bad for America.

The problem isn't the religion.  The people suck and the system sucks.  Together,  Christianity becomes a tool; and a highly corrupt one at that.  If this were a Muslim country,  then the same assholes would be using Islam to make life unpleasant for us.  Similarly,  I can't help but notice that there are plenty of other Christian nations that seem to have their act together a helluva lot more than we do.


Yea, definitely. It's like the "guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people" saying. Any political or religious belief can be used in a negative and hurtful way.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 05:00:53 PM »
Residing currently in yet another British colony, I would add the historical angle that Christianity used to be good for America(ns). It was the psychological underpinning to eradicate the indigenous population. Without the belief that they were doing this in the name of a higher cause I think they might have stopped much earlier.
(went to yet another memorial of genocide yesterday, this time for the Aboriginees)

These days, not so sure. It has some good aspects, but also many issues that especially the Americans are struggling with.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2011, 06:36:14 AM »
I dunno, I just think establishment in general is just a bad idea. Heck, I disapprove of the current Israeli government because the party in power these days is catering to a constituency that wants to turn it into a Jewish theocracy.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 06:45:42 AM »
People are idiots.

And that's the true heart of the problem, whether you believe in Jesus, Vishnu or the power of your own ego.
This.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 07:44:10 AM »
Religion is bad for America not just Christianity. Sure the average Christian is a good person, I will not dispute that. However, I see America as putting way too much faith in there religion to pull them through. Quite frankly it makes them lazy; "oh god will come through for me", "if we pray, God will make it rain". Really stupid shit like this.

You can't really fault them for it either, it is right in the Bible. You can't get elected if you are not Christian, which is just stupefying. Look at the issues that are going on because of Christianity. Gay rights movement are opposed almost entirely by the religious, the Texas school board and others debating on if they should actually give creationism any credence. Teacher's not teaching evolution and big bang theory because it goes against their highly held beliefs. I've heard about students, who for the first time start learning about evolution in there university classes, COME ON! A central tenant of biology is not being taught properly.   

Take Rick Perry for example; he denies climate change then gathers people to pray for rain. And this is a potential president? Then there is Michelle Bachman being submissive to her homophobic homosexual husband because the bible tells her to.


One cannot believe something so fervently and not have it influence their daily lives. Especially when it comes to matters of right and wrong, making policies, laws and decisions. People will often look to their religious beliefs for the answer instead of using their brain to do what is right.

Beliefs inform our actions, what my neighbor believes affects me. As they are a voting citizen and has sway of the entire country. The majority of Americans being Christian is a detriment.   

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2011, 10:06:21 AM »
Religion is bad for America not just Christianity. Sure the average Christian is a good person, I will not dispute that. However, I see America as putting way too much faith in there religion to pull them through. Quite frankly it makes them lazy; "oh god will come through for me", "if we pray, God will make it rain". Really stupid shit like this.

You can't really fault them for it either, it is right in the Bible.
No it ain't.

 
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You can't get elected if you are not Christian, which is just stupefying.
Big deal. A libertarian will probably never be elected in this country. It doesn't mean we're discriminated against; it means people don't prefer our policies. The same's true of atheism. In order to win a major office, you have to fall within a relatively narrow range of positions to be acceptable to voters. Your comment below explains perfectly why an atheist can't win at the moment: "One cannot believe something so fervently and not have it influence their daily lives. Especially when it comes to matters of right and wrong, making policies, laws and decisions. People will often look to their religious beliefs for the answer." I think voters who also believe in God see that reflected in the P/R movement that's been headed by people like Christopher Hitchens. Putting a vocal atheist in office means a major shift in policy.


Quote
Look at the issues that are going on because of Christianity. Gay rights movement are opposed almost entirely by the religious, the Texas school board and others debating on if they should actually give creationism any credence. Teacher's not teaching evolution and big bang theory because it goes against their highly held beliefs. I've heard about students, who for the first time start learning about evolution in there university classes, COME ON! A central tenant of biology is not being taught properly.
Evangelicals can be annoying, and I often see these furious fights over gay marriage, for example, as silly distractions. That being said, I know that our education system is lacking overall. Even in subjects that are decidedly uncontroversial, many students graduate knowing very little about them. That has nothing to do with any religious organization trying to wrestle the truth from the jaws of science and free inquiry. It's a political problem, not a religious one.
     

And on the republicans-hate-science hypothesis, I'll direct you to some further reading. The democrats are just as bad on stem cell policy as the republicans. On most matters of science they're no better than conservatives - even worse sometimes.





Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2011, 11:07:29 AM »
Quote from: William Wallace link=topic=29439.msg1136135#msg1136135
No it ain't.

Oh in Mathew 21:21-22 Jesus doesn't say that you can get whatever you want with prayer. You can even move mountains into the sea. Hmmm, you must have distracted by the ridiculousness of cursing a fig tree.

 
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Big deal. A libertarian will probably never be elected in this country. It doesn't mean we're discriminated against; it means people don't prefer our policies.

I didn't say anything about discrimination, non-Christians are still able to run. People are just to wrapped up in there "Christian" values to elect anyone not of their faith. This leads to people pandering to Christianity instead of being skeptical and doing what is best for all. Obama is probably the closest to a secular president US has had in recent years. If every Christian were little more like Obama, there wouldn't be such a big problem. Unfortunately the majority do follow the bible in a much more literal fashion, maybe not so much in the northern states.

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The same's true of atheism. In order to win a major office, you have to fall within a relatively narrow range of positions to be acceptable to voters. Your comment below explains perfectly why an atheist can't win at the moment: "One cannot believe something so fervently and not have it influence their daily lives. Especially when it comes to matters of right and wrong, making policies, laws and decisions. People will often look to their religious beliefs for the answer." I think voters who also believe in God see that reflected in the P/R movement that's been headed by people like Christopher Hitchens. Putting a vocal atheist in office means a major shift in policy.

Who said anything about electing a vocal atheist ala Hitchens? I didn't even mention an atheist president. Sure, let's role with the atheist president scenario. They would completely free of dogma and not worry about potentially going to hell for enforcing the wrong policy or worrying about what the Christians might think. Surely be less inclined to misrepresent a good percentage of the country by saying "god bless" or whatever at the end of speeches.

Perhaps even step in on the gay rights issue more-so, simply due to the fact that the president being an atheist wouldn't be expected to follow the bible. You know be a decent human being and give rights and freedoms to a group of people that should have the rights and freedoms simply for being human.

There are a myriad reasons. No theist can do something that an atheist cannot except for claim "I'm doing this because God wills it.". An atheist is free to think and not have the decision made for them from a book.

Am I saying they will be perfect? No.

I would like to see any other believer not just non-believer. It's something America needs.

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Evangelicals can be annoying, and I often see these furious fights over gay marriage, for example, as silly distractions. That being said, I know that our education system is lacking overall. Even in subjects that are decidedly uncontroversial, many students graduate knowing very little about them. That has nothing to do with any religious organization trying to wrestle the truth from the jaws of science and free inquiry. It's a political problem, not a religious one.

I'm not saying that it is entirely religious but you are fooling yourself if you don't think that it is part of it. Each of those issues I mentioned are spearheaded by the religious
     
Quote
And on the republicans-hate-science hypothesis, I'll direct you to some further reading. The democrats are just as bad on stem cell policy as the republicans. On most matters of science they're no better than conservatives - even worse sometimes.

I always thought Conservatives were worse.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2011, 11:12:37 AM »
Conservatives are worse.  Or at least the loud conservatives that everyone sees and hears all the time.  And the conservatives that sit on school boards in places like Texas and Kansas that decide what our kids actually get to learn.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2011, 11:14:44 AM »
Conservatives are worse.  Or at least the loud conservatives that everyone sees and hears all the time.  And the conservatives that sit on school boards in places like Texas and Kansas that decide what our kids actually get to learn.

But evolution is a theory, just like creationism.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2011, 11:19:01 AM »
Conservatives are worse.  Or at least the loud conservatives that everyone sees and hears all the time.  And the conservatives that sit on school boards in places like Texas and Kansas that decide what our kids actually get to learn.

But evolution is a theory, just like creationism.

 :facepalm:

wow

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 02:01:39 PM »
Think you need to get your sarcasm detector fixed.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 02:12:17 PM »
Quote from: William Wallace link=topic=29439.msg1136135#msg1136135
No it ain't.

Oh in Mathew 21:21-22 Jesus doesn't say that you can get whatever you want with prayer. You can even move mountains into the sea. Hmmm, you must have distracted by the ridiculousness of cursing a fig tree.
The reference must be taken in light of all Jesus' teaching about prayer. Here's a hint: prayer is not promised as a sort of personal Genie that fulfills wishes. And might it have occurred to you that the fig tree may be symbolic? Hard to imagine, I know. A work of literature that uses metaphor. Crazy.

Quote
I didn't say anything about discrimination, non-Christians are still able to run. People are just to wrapped up in there "Christian" values to elect anyone not of their faith. This leads to people pandering to Christianity instead of being skeptical and doing what is best for all. Obama is probably the closest to a secular president US has had in recent years. If every Christian were little more like Obama, there wouldn't be such a big problem. Unfortunately the majority do follow the bible in a much more literal fashion, maybe not so much in the northern states.
Politicians will pander to whomever will get them elected. In reality, there's no difference in terms of policy between Obama and any republican the Christian right would put in office.

Quote
Who said anything about electing a vocal atheist ala Hitchens? I didn't even mention an atheist president. Sure, let's role with the atheist president scenario. They would completely free of dogma and not worry about potentially going to hell for enforcing the wrong policy or worrying about what the Christians might think. Surely be less inclined to misrepresent a good percentage of the country by saying "god bless" or whatever at the end of speeches.
You did. A skeptic couldn't win election, you said. Anyway, you may not like the underlying motivations for their decisions, but in practice it doesn't amount to much. The science crowd swooned over Obama's election, but as I said he's hardly much different than any Holy Roller Republican. 

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Perhaps even step in on the gay rights issue more-so, simply due to the fact that the president being an atheist wouldn't be expected to follow the bible. You know be a decent human being and give rights and freedoms to a group of people that should have the rights and freedoms simply for being human.
I agree. It's a stupid argument to hold onto. But believe it or not, it's not just the religious right who defend these kinds policies, which was discussed in the debate I linked to. And, even if you have your rational president, you still have to contend with various state statutes and constitutional challenges in the courts.

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There are a myriad reasons. No theist can do something that an atheist cannot except for claim "I'm doing this because God wills it.". An atheist is free to think and not have the decision made for them from a book.
This is really just your boneheaded misconception. Our ethics are codified in the Bible, yes, but there really are good reasons for adhering to them. It's not merely because they're written down in a book.

Quote


I'm not saying that it is entirely religious but you are fooling yourself if you don't think that it is part of it. Each of those issues I mentioned are spearheaded by the religious
The point is, the problem is bigger than religion. Science literacy in this country would still be dismal without the evangelical attack on Evolution.

Quote
I always thought Conservatives were worse.
I suppose that settles it.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2011, 04:19:17 PM »
Conservatives are worse.  Or at least the loud conservatives that everyone sees and hears all the time.  And the conservatives that sit on school boards in places like Texas and Kansas that decide what our kids actually get to learn.

But evolution is a theory, just like creationism.

 :facepalm:

wow
I think he's joking.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2011, 06:59:08 PM »
Conservatives are worse.  Or at least the loud conservatives that everyone sees and hears all the time.  And the conservatives that sit on school boards in places like Texas and Kansas that decide what our kids actually get to learn.

But evolution is a theory, just like creationism.

 :facepalm:

wow

looooooool

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2011, 05:41:26 AM »
Quote from: William Wallace link=topic=29439.msg1136340#msg1136340

The reference must be taken in light of all Jesus' teaching about prayer. Here's a hint: prayer is not promised as a sort of personal Genie that fulfills wishes.

So all the people that were there at that time get shafted with a lie. He says that he is telling the truth and through prayer your wants "shall" be done not maybe not kinda similar. They will be done, sure seems like a wish to me.

Quote from: William Wallace link=topic=29439.msg1136340#msg1136340
And might it have occurred to you that the fig tree may be symbolic? Hard to imagine, I know. A work of literature that uses metaphor. Crazy.

It doesn't read like that at all. He goes to the fig tree and destroys it then tells everyone present that they can do the same. Oh and move mountains...

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Politicians will pander to whomever will get them elected. In reality, there's no difference in terms of policy between Obama and any republican the Christian right would put in office.

There's the problem.

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You did. A skeptic couldn't win election, you said.
Upon re-read, I supposed it is implied the way it reads.

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Anyway, you may not like the underlying motivations for their decisions, but in practice it doesn't amount to much. The science crowd swooned over Obama's election, but as I said he's hardly much different than any Holy Roller Republican. 

They may have swooned because they thought he was going to do what he promised, "change".

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I agree. It's a stupid argument to hold onto. But believe it or not, it's not just the religious right who defend these kinds policies, which was discussed in the debate I linked to.

Right it isn't but they are the majority. As for the debate; I post a lot from work and am unfortunately unable to watch it at this time. I do enjoy watching them though.

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And, even if you have your rational president, you still have to contend with various state statutes and constitutional challenges in the courts.

True but by electing such a president the people would have to change as well. Here were we come back to religion damaging the country.

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This is really just your boneheaded misconception. Our ethics are codified in the Bible, yes, but there really are good reasons for adhering to them. It's not merely because they're written down in a book.

No there isn't. There is only good reason to adhere to them if they are true. If they are true there is no reason to have a book that contradicts itself to no end. Especially one that is supposed to be the word of an omnipotent deity, that for some reason can't seem to keep his "word" pure through the centuries. 

Hating gays is wrong, yet it is there in the bible that god detests them. Please don't make the argument that he loves them but hates the sin, that is just dumb. Gay is a part of who they are.

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The point is, the problem is bigger than religion. Science literacy in this country would still be dismal without the evangelical attack on Evolution.

Maybe it wouldn't be up to par with other countries. However, you would not have parents getting pissed when their kid is taught reality. You wouldn't have teachers afraid to teach evolution for fear of the backlash. Your attitude is "well the car would still be a piece of shit. So why change the oil?", get rid of problems. Even if it is one at a time.   


Conservatives are worse.  Or at least the loud conservatives that everyone sees and hears all the time.  And the conservatives that sit on school boards in places like Texas and Kansas that decide what our kids actually get to learn.

But evolution is a theory, just like creationism.

 :facepalm:

wow

looooooool

Truly I say unto you. I thought it was an odd post from you.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2011, 06:17:01 AM »
Quote
Politicians will pander to whomever will get them elected. In reality, there's no difference in terms of policy between Obama and any republican the Christian right would put in office.

Not really true at all.  A Republican will appoint conservative judges and Obama has appointed liberal judges.  I'd call that a pretty significant policy difference right there, not to mention the fact that most of the so-called "Christians" that are running for election right now have said they would put torture (Waterboarding) back on the table if elected, Obama outlawed it.  Again, big, big policy difference.

I can come up with dozens more too.

I agree, though, that both sides pander to whomever will get them elected.



Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2011, 07:46:59 AM »
right now have said they would put torture (Waterboarding) back on the table if elected, Obama outlawed it.  Again, big, big policy difference.

Really?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2011, 08:13:01 AM »
It would be more accurate to say politicians rarely differ in their foreign policy. For all his talk of the Evil Empire, Reagan always hoped the day would never come that he would even have to consider using the bomb, and in 1998 President Clinton was drawing up plans to invade Iraq.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2011, 08:35:02 AM »
It would be more accurate to say politicians rarely differ in their foreign policy. For all his talk of the Evil Empire, Reagan always hoped the day would never come that he would even have to consider using the bomb, and in 1998 President Clinton was drawing up plans to invade Iraq.
Seriously, it's hilarious seeing these Republican candidates trying to criticize Obama's foreign policy from the right without looking like complete lunatics.

OT: It only bothers me when it clearly influences policy, i.e., unwavering support for the Israel establishment. 

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2011, 08:36:08 AM »
I have to agree with the general flow of this thread:
Merging politics with Christianity is bad.  It was bad in the days of Constantine and hasn't gotten much better.
Scripture declares that "our politics are in heaven" (Phil 3:20). 
When Christians imitate Jesus, it is good.  Hospitals are built.  Orphans are cared for.  Nursing home residents are visited.  People can be trusted at their word.  People stay married and children grow up with two parents.  People give instead of steal.  They give their best at all times at their jobs, their homes, their schools, their recreation.
Christianity is good for America.  But as stated earlier, it is us people who are the idiots.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2011, 08:47:28 AM »
I sort of agree with you, but I just get this feeling of establishment from it. And besides, why can't, say, Islam or Judaism be good for America? Maybe Islam is an extreme example, but Judaism and Christianity for all their differences follow a very similar moral code.
Quote from: bosk1
As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Is Christianity bad for America?
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2011, 11:07:51 AM »
I agree.  I referred to moral values of christianity because of thread title but most religiins at their core share these values