Ben Stein - Abandoning values

[William Wallace]

I don't think too highly of Ben Stein,  but I agree with the part attributed to him.  I'm happy enough for people to wish me a merry Christmas,  happy Hanukkah, or a Tip-Top Tet if that's what they're into.  I'll probably even return the regards. 

Now,  as for this war on Christmas garbage that the right keeps harping on,  if it actually does exist,  Christmas is kicking the shit out of it's enemies.   Truth be told,  modern Christmas is merely an adjunct of our consumer based society,  and as such,  it's invincible.  Wal-Mart,  Best Buy and De Beers will never, ever let it be harmed.  It is those entities that propagate the whole "war on Christmas" bullshit by couching all of the rhetoric to try and avoid offending the 1% that might be put off by it.  The right latches onto that because it loves getting riled up about anything with a hint of political correctness.  In the mean time,  the holiday season begins one whole month earlier than it did 8 years ago, and the people who fear that Christmas is under attack run out to buy a new HDTV every year from the store that still calls it Christmas and complains that the atheists are out to get them. 

Seems to me that the Christians are probably right to feel threatened regarding their holiday beliefs,  but it isn't the atheists or the democrats that are their concern.  It's the wild West of capitalism that's fucking up their holiday.

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

Well which is it?  Is Christmas a scared and pure tradition, or is it a capitalist marketing tool?

Both, and they're both awesome. 

I'm actually not out to attack capitalism at the moment. I'm just pointing out that the Christians who are Super Dude about this shouldn't be as bothered by tiny number of people who are offended by Christmas as much as they should be that the birth of their Messiah is commemorated by purchasing electronics and jewelry.

Agreed. I'm just tired of everybody using Christmas as a weapon in the culture war. We happen celebrate an important event on December 25; we also buy cool stuff for low prices, and everybody involved needs to shut up.   



I've never heard anybody bitch about Merry Christmas,  although I'm sure there are some hard-ass atheists that do.  Still,  there are so little as to be inconsequential.  I sure do hear a ton about it though,  because the right is so dead set on convincing people how terrible it is.
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[tofee35]

I had 3 Christmases so far in the U.S.
I say Merry Christmas, I thank people when they say it to me. I get the tree and decorate it, sometimes even do the presents thing if money is good. It's one of the most jolly fuckin things in the world! Since I was a kid in Egypt watching Home Alone and other Christmas kids comedies I loved the vibe of the American Christmas. I can't imagine a fucked up scenario of me thinking "Shit this is a Christian thing! It's bad to practice it's rituals!" let alone be offended cause someone said Merry Christmas to me.

Great Post! I think people need to look at the real problems in the world and not make new ones. Picking on Christmas is like picking on an old Italian Grandmother. She never hurt anybody, she only spreads joy through her culinary genius. She's Italian Catholic, but so what. Everybody enjoys eating her sugo.

[El JoNNo]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that. I for one am not constantly trying to appease a mythological being.

[bosk1]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that. I for one am not constantly trying to appease a mythological being.

Perhaps not.  But living the fairy tale that God doesn't exist is just as bad.

[El JoNNo]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that. I for one am not constantly trying to appease a mythological being.

Perhaps not.  But living the fairy tale that God doesn't exist is just as bad.

Not necessarily that a god doesn't exist but that the Christian god sure doesn't.

[MetalMike06]

[bosk1]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that. I for one am not constantly trying to appease a mythological being.

Perhaps not.  But living the fairy tale that God doesn't exist is just as bad.

Not necessarily that a god doesn't exist but that the Christian god sure doesn't.

I mentioned that to Him, and he laughed and said He doesn't have time to debate it right now, but He'll see you soon.

[El JoNNo]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that. I for one am not constantly trying to appease a mythological being.

Perhaps not.  But living the fairy tale that God doesn't exist is just as bad.

Not necessarily that a god doesn't exist but that the Christian god sure doesn't.

I mentioned that to Him, and he laughed and said He doesn't have time to debate it right now, but He'll see you soon.

The supposed omnipotent doesn't have time. Inconvenient way of backing out of a debate.

[William Wallace]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that.

Well, studies show otherwise.

[juice]

I think what Ben Stein said was deserving of a thumbs up. 

[Scheavo]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that.

Well, studies show otherwise.

Ignorance is bliss.

[El JoNNo]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that.

Well, studies show otherwise.

Studies also show that atheists on average are more intelligent.

[ddtonfire]

Studies show that most "studies show" quotes on the internet are 

[Tick]

Jingle boy, you post that and don't even have an opinion on it? Are you in agreement or not?
Ben Stein rocks and much of that article, his words or not is spot on! I agree 1,000,000%

[jingle.boy]

Jingle boy, you post that and don't even have an opinion on it? Are you in agreement or not?
Ben Stein rocks and much of that article, his words or not is spot on! I agree 1,000,000%

Yeah, I guess I kinda hit-and-run with the post.  And yes, I'm right with you Tick.  I don't particularly relish in these kinds of debates (hence my lack of posting), but I'll say to the people that haven't experienced the kind of 'war on Christmas' that some say doesn't exist, be thankful.  It does happen.  I think a couple of Stein's (and the additional) comments are spot on.  Christians should not need to give up their values, cultures and rituals anymore than any other religion should... yet in some places, we are.  I don't think that's right.  As Stein said, I don't like feeling as though I'm being pushed around because of my Christian beliefs and values.

[Tick]

Jingle boy, you post that and don't even have an opinion on it? Are you in agreement or not?
Ben Stein rocks and much of that article, his words or not is spot on! I agree 1,000,000%

Yeah, I guess I kinda hit-and-run with the post.  And yes, I'm right with you Tick.  I don't particularly relish in these kinds of debates (hence my lack of posting), but I'll say to the people that haven't experienced the kind of 'war on Christmas' that some say doesn't exist, be thankful.  It does happen.  I think a couple of Stein's (and the additional) comments are spot on.  Christians should not need to give up their values, cultures and rituals anymore than any other religion should... yet in some places, we are.  I don't think that's right.  As Stein said, I don't like feeling as though I'm being pushed around because of my Christian beliefs and values.

Good to hear. I am a Christian, but I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, and even Wiccan and I respect them because they are my friends. You don't have to agree with something to show respect. The anti Christian movement is tiresome. I don't like to waste my time debating certain things because you can't win anyhow. I also don't respect the Christian who tries to force religion down others throats. It doesn't work that way and never has.

[jingle.boy]

Jingle boy, you post that and don't even have an opinion on it? Are you in agreement or not?
Ben Stein rocks and much of that article, his words or not is spot on! I agree 1,000,000%

Yeah, I guess I kinda hit-and-run with the post.  And yes, I'm right with you Tick.  I don't particularly relish in these kinds of debates (hence my lack of posting), but I'll say to the people that haven't experienced the kind of 'war on Christmas' that some say doesn't exist, be thankful.  It does happen.  I think a couple of Stein's (and the additional) comments are spot on.  Christians should not need to give up their values, cultures and rituals anymore than any other religion should... yet in some places, we are.  I don't think that's right.  As Stein said, I don't like feeling as though I'm being pushed around because of my Christian beliefs and values.

Good to hear. I am a Christian, but I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, and even Wiccan and I respect them because they are my friends. You don't have to agree with something to show respect. The anti Christian movement is tiresome. I don't like to waste my time debating certain things because you can't win anyhow. I also don't respect the Christian who tries to force religion down others throats. It doesn't work that way and never has.

Sound like we have a lot of the same views.  In my community, there are all knids of faiths (Hindu, Muslim... celebrating all kinds of holiday rituals - Ramadan, Kwanzaa, Chanakah...).  I respect theirs, and simply want the same in return.

[yeshaberto]

while I agree with the quote for the most part, I also don't have much respect for Christians who whine about not being accepted by others.  Jesus made it pretty clear that the world will hate those who follow him just as they hated him.  Until we are being fed to lions or nailed to a cross I don't think we have it too rough.

[El JoNNo]

I do not agree with those that are vehement about people not saying Merry Christmas or any other religious holiday. I do agree that not religion should be held in any type of authority or hold any sway in decision making unless there agenda holds true regardless of their religion.

Government should not respect any belief if it will break the law or bring harm to another such as a parent refusing a blood transfusion for their child.

[El Barto]

while I agree with the quote for the most part, I also don't have much respect for Christians who whine about not being accepted by others.  Jesus made it pretty clear that the world will hate those who follow him just as they hated him.  Until we are being fed to lions or nailed to a cross I don't think we have it too rough.

Hear hear.  The anti-Christian crowd is such a small minority that I'm not very sympathetic to people who get riled up by them.  Honestly,  it seems like the Christians who get so bent out of shape about what they can and can't do under the law are pretty much the exact same as the atheists who do the same. 

As for the overall argument,  there are some places where I don't give a shit if prayer or references to God is allowed, and some places I think it's wrong from a practical standpoint.  Congress or the president can fellate Him all they want.  Schools are a place where kids are formulating their own ideas about life, and they don't need The Man throwing religious beliefs into them.  Pray at sporting events,  but don't get annoyed if I don't stand/kneel/sit or take my hat off*.  I don't care if the ten commandments or references to God are in a court house,  but beginning with a prayer would be very problematic.  As is so often the case,  people tend to care too much about the principle of such things rather than the practical aspect. 



*and combining it with the pledge of allegiance is in very poor taste. 

[Podaar]

I'm more than a bit tired of everybody blaming a boogie man for ruining their pure and sacred traditions. From a biblical standpoint, December and Christmas trees have nothing to do with Jesus; atheism sucks year around; capitalism makes life better for everybody and has nothing to do with the "attack" on Christmas.

I don't know about that. I for one am not constantly trying to appease a mythological being.

Perhaps not.  But living the fairy tale that God doesn't exist is just as bad.

 

[tofee35]

 
Hear hear.  The anti-Christian crowd is such a small minority that I'm not very sympathetic to people who get riled up by them.  Honestly,  it seems like the Christians who get so bent out of shape about what they can and can't do under the law are pretty much the exact same as the atheists who do the same.
 


The anti-Christian (or pro-political correctness/equality) crowd has more power than you think. For example: Last year many annual Christmas-related shows in my area of New England were cancelled due to the suggestively religious language in the songs and dialogue. That may seem small. But consider that the companies that make money from performing every year rely on that income. The humane side of it is that these shows have been staples in family annual traditions for the people of these affected communities. You really can't put a price on the joy and unity that family Christmas gatherings, shows, and music bring. Many non-Christian folks in my community were very upset and rightfully. Unfortunately, this is probably the beginning of some serious shit.

This is a very real thing.

[El Barto]

Hear hear.  The anti-Christian crowd is such a small minority that I'm not very sympathetic to people who get riled up by them.  Honestly,  it seems like the Christians who get so bent out of shape about what they can and can't do under the law are pretty much the exact same as the atheists who do the same.
 


The anti-Christian (or pro-political correctness/equality) crowd has more power than you think. For example: Last year many annual Christmas-related shows in my area of New England were cancelled due to the suggestively religious language in the songs and dialogue. That may seem small. But consider that the companies that make money from performing every year rely on that income. The humane side of it is that these shows have been staples in family annual traditions for the people of these affected communities. You really can't put a price on the joy and unity that family Christmas gatherings, shows, and music bring. Many non-Christian folks in my community were very upset and rightfully. Unfortunately, this is probably the beginning of some serious shit.

This is a very real thing.

I would say that the problem lies with the producers of these shows who are so scared of a small, vocal minority than the minority itself.  That was my point about the capitalist element.  Everybody's got an opinion, and everybody thinks their opinion matters,  but it really doesn't unless people become afraid of it.  Retailers are afraid of scaring off potential customers who don't approve of "merry Christmas."  Frankly,  the problem is with the retailers for empowering them, and not the Scrooges. 

[tofee35]

Hear hear.  The anti-Christian crowd is such a small minority that I'm not very sympathetic to people who get riled up by them.  Honestly,  it seems like the Christians who get so bent out of shape about what they can and can't do under the law are pretty much the exact same as the atheists who do the same.
 


The anti-Christian (or pro-political correctness/equality) crowd has more power than you think. For example: Last year many annual Christmas-related shows in my area of New England were cancelled due to the suggestively religious language in the songs and dialogue. That may seem small. But consider that the companies that make money from performing every year rely on that income. The humane side of it is that these shows have been staples in family annual traditions for the people of these affected communities. You really can't put a price on the joy and unity that family Christmas gatherings, shows, and music bring. Many non-Christian folks in my community were very upset and rightfully. Unfortunately, this is probably the beginning of some serious shit.

This is a very real thing.

I would say that the problem lies with the producers of these shows who are so scared of a small, vocal minority than the minority itself.  That was my point about the capitalist element.  Everybody's got an opinion, and everybody thinks their opinion matters,  but it really doesn't unless people become afraid of it.  Retailers are afraid of scaring off potential customers who don't approve of "merry Christmas."  Frankly,  the problem is with the retailers for empowering them, and not the Scrooges.

I hear you, but in those cases it was the school district's decision to make, not the producers of the shows. Schools have obviously very high stature in a community, and for school districts to make those decisions it says alot.

I agree about the capitalist element. In this case though, maybe the shows were still paid by the school district even though they didn't perform last year. They won't be coming back though. I think the affect this has on capitalism is different than the affect it has on values, community, and things you can't really put a price on. When school's and local governments get behind this kind of absurd political correctness, you got some serioius issues.

[Scheavo]

Well that seems to be a different mater. A public school shouldn't be putting on any Christmas plays that are suggestively religious. I was in plenty growing up, and they were as secular as could be, and everyone loved them. It's the school districts, and teachers, fault for not being able to write a Christmas play that isn't overly religious.

[El Barto]

I hear you, but in those cases it was the school district's decision to make, not the producers of the shows. Schools have obviously very high stature in a community, and for school districts to make those decisions it says alot.

It says that they did the right thing.  There are plenty of organizations that can put on all the religious pageantry they wish,  and I certainly wouldn't complain.  There are plenty of Christmas stories the school can put on that don't push a singular religion onto people and I wouldn't complain.  It goes back to the practical aspect that I referred to earlier. 

[hefdaddy42]

I'm all for phrases like Happy Holidays, because there are people other faiths who are celebrating things at that time of year other than Christmas.  I want everyone to be happy, so if I don't know which one you may be celebrating, I am likely to say Happy Holidays.

But I'm not crazy about a Christmas tree being anything other than a Christmas tree.  That's what it has always been called, and I see no reason to change it now.  AFAIK, decorating a tree isn't a tradition of any of the other Wintertime celebrations, only Christmas, so it should be called a Christmas tree.  And don't give me a lecture about the pagan origins of the tree, because I'm not talking about Christian Christmas, but normal capitalist American secular Christmas.

Also, my daughter's school had a Fall celebration on October 31st instead of a Halloween party, and I dunno WTF that was about.

[Tick]

So much of the nations economy hinges on Christmas shopping every November through December. We all know Christmas is whats being promoted be it religious or secular. If you get that offended by Merry Christmas I would say its a personal problem. Move on. If someone wants to say Happy Kwaanza to me I will say, hey thanks!

[El JoNNo]

I'm all for phrases like Happy Holidays, because there are people other faiths who are celebrating things at that time of year other than Christmas.  I want everyone to be happy, so if I don't know which one you may be celebrating, I am likely to say Happy Holidays.

But I'm not crazy about a Christmas tree being anything other than a Christmas tree.  That's what it has always been called, and I see no reason to change it now.  AFAIK, decorating a tree isn't a tradition of any of the other Wintertime celebrations, only Christmas, so it should be called a Christmas tree.  And don't give me a lecture about the pagan origins of the tree, because I'm not talking about Christian Christmas, but normal capitalist American secular Christmas.

Also, my daughter's school had a Fall celebration on October 31st instead of a Halloween party, and I dunno WTF that was about.

You are absolutely right. Christmas has more or less returned to it's non-Christian traditions and been absorbed back into the now dominant culture/multi-culture. I also see no reason to call it anything different as definitions change all the time. In reality it is a day of celebration, if someone chooses to celebrate Jesus' birthday on that date that is fine. If Hindus want to celebrate Adi Shakti, be all means do so. Jews might even want to celebrate killing Jesus' (JOKING!).

You know what is worse when people get angry because someone says Happy Holidays. Sometimes it's not to be non-Christmas, sometimes it's just to wish someone happy holidays. It is plural and not singular like Merry Christmas.

The Halloween thing was probably so people wouldn't get there genitals in a knot about the common misconception about worshiping demons, devil, spirits etc...

So much of the nations economy hinges on Christmas shopping every November through December. We all know Christmas is whats being promoted be it religious or secular. If you get that offended by Merry Christmas I would say its a personal problem. Move on. If someone wants to say Happy Kwaanza to me I will say, hey thanks!

Agreed.   

[El Barto]

Both of Dr. Spock's children are alive and well.  Neither of them committed suicide.  While I already thought most of the post was bullshit,  finding out that whoever wrote it was having to add falsehoods to back up their position makes it far more worthless than it already was. 

[rumborak]

I do not understand why anyone give a flying hoot about Ben Stein. He already displayed his lack of perspective with his ID movie, and then he became the spokesperson for a money scam company (freecreditscore.com).

rumborak

[Ben_Jamin]

I like what anne grahm had to say about hurricane Katrina. Makes sense,

[Genowyn]

I do not understand why anyone give a flying hoot about Ben Stein. He already displayed his lack of perspective with his ID movie, and then he became the spokesperson for a money scam company (freecreditscore.com).

rumborak

Win Ben Stein's money was a good game show.

That's all I got.

[El Barto]

I do not understand why anyone give a flying hoot about Ben Stein. He already displayed his lack of perspective with his ID movie, and then he became the spokesperson for a money scam company (freecreditscore.com).

rumborak

Win Ben Stein's money was a good game show.

That's all I got.

It made him look smart.  That's actually his biggest problem.  He actually is a pretty bright guy,  which makes his only excuse for some of his fairly shallow opinions that he's a liar or shill. Pretty much what I think about Dennis Miller, as well.   

[rumborak]

I think his ID movie showed that his honesty doesn't go as far as his convictions go. The means justify the end, essentially.

rumborak