Why do we pay for prisoners?

[Chino]

A thought occurred to me today while working on a statistics problem....

Why don't people put in jail get charged for their stay? I understand that there are people in there who have no cash and that's why they turned to crime. However, there are probably thousands of people who go in for 2 days or less. Isn't the cost per day only like 80 bucks or something like that?

[El Barto]

For one thing,  what do you do with the prisoner who says "fuck you" when they ask for a check?  Secondly,  in a civilized society, imprisonment should be a last resort.  I actually like the fact that it costs money to throw somebody in a cell.  If there were no cost to society,  then we'd probably be tossing even more people in.  Lastly,  very spooky shit tends to happen when you combine cash and criminal justice.  When imprisoning people equals cash into coffers,  you've created a terrible situation. 

[Scheavo]

Lastly,  very spooky shit tends to happen when you combine cash and criminal justice.  When imprisoning people equals cash into coffers,  you've created a terrible situation.

I completely agree with this, but I sorta don't get how this relates to the other points...

[kirksnosehair]

This is already happening in one form or another in a few places.

I think this is a very slippery slope here with a LOT of potential for graft and corruption.  I'm also extremely uncomfortable with private, for profit prisons. 

[El Barto]

Not only the for-profit prisons,  but even making prisoners work for private companies is pretty questionable.  Picking up trash, training horses for The Man,  cleaning up state/national parks,  all ok;  those are public works.  Telemarketing for Capitol One for 20¢ an hour while The Man keeps $5 is a very shaky situation. 

[kirksnosehair]

Not only the for-profit prisons,  but even making prisoners work for private companies is pretty questionable.  Picking up trash, training horses for The Man,  cleaning up state/national parks,  all ok;  those are public works.  Telemarketing for Capitol One for 20¢ an hour while The Man keeps $5 is a very shaky situation.

Agreed - public works stuff is fine.   The other stuff is not.

[jsem]

I am tempted to say forced labor for prisoners.

Sounds harsh, but it may be an effective way to keep the costs of prisons down.

[kirksnosehair]

Forced labor is prohibited under the 8th amendment

[jsem]

First of all, I'm going to say I don't care about the constitution - I'm not even a U.S. citizen, never been there, even less incentive for me to care. I only care about what is right or not.

If they violated someones rights, their rights are already being infringed upon. Ones rights are already strictly limited when entering prison, but in an attempt to keep them away from society, it bares extreme costs to the society because not only do they sometimes get more inclined to commit crimes after prison time but their prison time along is a huge financial burden.

Forced labor sounds extremely harsh, but you don't have to have them working for 16 hours or anything, just a little while (maybe like a regular day job) - to make it more cost-effective. Their legal rights should not be compromised though, and habeas corpus is very important.

The only objection to this could be a moral one, and I actually agree with that objection, I don't believe in forced labor even in these circumstances, but what better method is there if one actually wants to cut costs.

[kirksnosehair]

A better method of cutting prison costs, at least here in the US would be to stop incarcerating people for non-violent drug possession and crap like that.  We have more people in prison per capita than any country on earth and a LOT of them are in there for simple possession of marijuana or other drugs, not selling, just having.

As far as prison labor goes, there is absolutely NO need to force it, I know for a fact that plenty of people who are doing time would be happy to work each day if they could earn a better wage than $1.00 or $2.00 per day, which is one of the primary reasons many prisoners cite for refusing to work.

[GuineaPig]

Legalize marijuana.  Decriminalize harder drugs.  Fund substance abuse recovery programs.

Bam.  Free 1 million prisoners.  Stop tens of thousands of deaths in Mexico.  Re-focus law enforcement assets to more important things.

[kirksnosehair]

Legalize marijuana.  Decriminalize harder drugs.  Fund substance abuse recovery programs.

Bam.  Free 1 million prisoners.  Stop tens of thousands of deaths in Mexico.  Re-focus law enforcement assets to more important things.

WINNING 

[chknptpie]

There are a few states trying to use prisoners as replacements of the shrinking number of illegal immigrants. So Idaho to use prisoners on potato farms, Alabama to use prisoners on fruit farms.

https://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/07/338922/alabama-prisoners-immigrants-farm-labor/

https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204774604576630972860034248.html

[kirksnosehair]

There are a few states trying to use prisoners as replacements of the shrinking number of illegal immigrants. So Idaho to use prisoners on potato farms, Alabama to use prisoners on fruit farms.

https://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/07/338922/alabama-prisoners-immigrants-farm-labor/

https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204774604576630972860034248.html

Interesting.  The first one (on Thinkprogress.org) should be mandatory reading for all of the conservatives in this country who think migrant workers are taking up jobs that Americans are willing and able to do.

[jsem]

Legalize marijuana.  Decriminalize harder drugs.  Fund substance abuse recovery programs.

Bam.  Free 1 million prisoners.  Stop tens of thousands of deaths in Mexico.  Re-focus law enforcement assets to more important things.

I do not dispute this. Would be of massive help.

[Scheavo]

There are a few states trying to use prisoners as replacements of the shrinking number of illegal immigrants. So Idaho to use prisoners on potato farms, Alabama to use prisoners on fruit farms.

https://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/10/07/338922/alabama-prisoners-immigrants-farm-labor/

https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204774604576630972860034248.html

Interesting.  The first one (on Thinkprogress.org) should be mandatory reading for all of the conservatives in this country who think migrant workers are taking up jobs that Americans are willing and able to do.

The Daily Show did a "report" on it, I believe.

Also, migrant workers do a better job than them prisoners... becuase.. ya know... they have a motive.

Forced labor is prohibited under the 8th amendment

Depends upon what you define as forced labor (making inmates pick up trash certainly isn't cruel or unusual).

[MasterShakezula]

Legalize marijuana.  Decriminalize harder drugs.  Fund substance abuse recovery programs.

Bam.  Free 1 million prisoners.  Stop tens of thousands of deaths in Mexico.  Re-focus law enforcement assets to more important things.

Stop making sense; you're cheating corrupt people out of their paychecks. 

[Cool Chris]

I know for a fact that plenty of people who are doing time would be happy to work each day if they could earn a better wage than $1.00 or $2.00 per day, which is one of the primary reasons many prisoners cite for refusing to work.

Aren't their costs of living quite different than everyone else though? They are not paying rent, taxes, or anything other than what they get from the commissary, which are charged much less than they would be on the 'outside.'

The St. Clair County farmer who challenged Beason said his family could lose $150,000 this year because they only had a quarter of the workforce they normally would during harvest.

Isn’t this essentially their problem, or a problem with their business model? Shouldn’t they be required to pay whatever the minimum wage is?

I know, I know… but Cool Chris, don’t you like having cheap fruit to buy at the grocery store?? Arghhh

[El Barto]

First,  I'll reiterate that society should bear the cost of imprisoning people.

That said,  if you're going to create a model where prisoners work,  I'd give them the option of not working and just being convicts,  or working for actual minimum wage.  If the choose minimum wage,  charge them fair rent, food, and utilities, and let them spend, save or invest the rest of it.  Might help with recidivism if they had some money waiting for them after they got out. 

[Scheavo]

That said,  if you're going to create a model where prisoners work,  I'd give them the option of not working and just being convicts,  or working for actual minimum wage. If the choose minimum wage,  charge them fair rent, food, and utilities, and let them spend, save or invest the rest of it.  Might help with recidivism if they had some money waiting for them after they got out.

That might also make it too tempting of an alternative. Of course, for cases where it's a tempting alternative, rehabilitation would be better anyways. However, depending upon the crime, I don't think this should apply, or at least it should only apply near the end of the term. If you rape a child, minimum wage and extra money is too good for you.

[kirksnosehair]

Aren't their costs of living quite different than everyone else though? They are not paying rent, taxes, or anything other than what they get from the commissary, which are charged much less than they would be on the 'outside.'

Yes, that is true, in most cases they are not paying for room and board, although they are now starting to charge prisoners in some jurisdictions for medical care. 

But what a lot of people fail to take into account is the fact that something like 95% of all prisoners are going to be released back into society one day.  Many of them are going to get out with nowhere to go, no money, no marketable job skills, minimal social skills and a massive chip on their shoulders.  It would benefit us all if these ex-cons had some money saved up when they are released so that they don't turn back to crime.  If they worked for a fair wage while incarcerated and were compelled to save a certain percentage of their earnings, at least they would have a decent amount of money to keep them afloat for a while upon release.

[Scheavo]

But what a lot of people fail to take into account is the fact that something like 95% of all prisoners are going to be released back into society one day.

Well see, at least 50% of our population shouldn't be in prison to begin with. If we didn't throw people in jail for selling or smoking marijuana, we'd have a much smaller population, and so we'd bypass this problem from the beginning.

[jcmistat]

Harsher death penalty procedures. Maybe I'm a savage but I have no remorse for the ones that commit ridiculous crimes and get sent to prison for life and repeatedly try to appeal only to be stuck until they die/executed. Get it over with a gunshot or really cheap way that is definitely inhumane and qualified as torture for most.

[Sigz]

Harsher death penalty procedures. Maybe I'm a savage but I have no remorse for the ones that commit ridiculous crimes and get sent to prison for life and repeatedly try to appeal only to be stuck until they die/executed. Get it over with a gunshot or really cheap way that is definitely inhumane and qualified as torture for most.

That's all fine and dandy until you execute an innocent person.

[7thHanyou]

Harsher death penalty procedures. Maybe I'm a savage but I have no remorse for the ones that commit ridiculous crimes and get sent to prison for life and repeatedly try to appeal only to be stuck until they die/executed. Get it over with a gunshot or really cheap way that is definitely inhumane and qualified as torture for most.

That's all fine and dandy until you execute an innocent person.

I like this argument and find it persuasive.  It's why I waver on capital punishment.

But there's a hitch--how, exactly, do you place a value on ten, twenty, thirty years of an innocent person's life?  Locking an innocent person up in a cage for any length of time is an egregious violation of their rights.

The logic used to dispute capital punishment could seemingly be applied to any and all punishment.  Why settle for a lesser evil that is still so evil?  Life sentences aren't reversible--not really.  You can't simply give people precious years of their life back.  Not to mention the tremendously difficult circumstances that could follow a prison sentence.

On-topic, I don't have a huge problem with the idea of forced labor because I am not against incarceration.  I do, however, like the idea of not punishing victimless crimes.

[jcmistat]

Harsher death penalty procedures. Maybe I'm a savage but I have no remorse for the ones that commit ridiculous crimes and get sent to prison for life and repeatedly try to appeal only to be stuck until they die/executed. Get it over with a gunshot or really cheap way that is definitely inhumane and qualified as torture for most.

That's all fine and dandy until you execute an innocent person.

I think of it as simple as this. Imagine you have a lever in front of you. Pulling it puts 8 people in jail for life/murders them except one of those eight is innocent. I'd pull it every time.

Putting criminals in the bar for life is exactly the same as execution. The costs are too much both ways and should be remedied. I'm willing to sacrifice the the wrongly accused for the costs. I don't understand wasting peoples time and money on the others that threw their chance away at being apart of society.

[El Barto]

Alrighty, then.  Getting back to the world of the sane:

Harsher death penalty procedures. Maybe I'm a savage but I have no remorse for the ones that commit ridiculous crimes and get sent to prison for life and repeatedly try to appeal only to be stuck until they die/executed. Get it over with a gunshot or really cheap way that is definitely inhumane and qualified as torture for most.

That's all fine and dandy until you execute an innocent person.

I like this argument and find it persuasive.  It's why I waver on capital punishment.

But there's a hitch--how, exactly, do you place a value on ten, twenty, thirty years of an innocent person's life?  Locking an innocent person up in a cage for any length of time is an egregious violation of their rights.

The logic used to dispute capital punishment could seemingly be applied to any and all punishment.  Why settle for a lesser evil that is still so evil?  Life sentences aren't reversible--not really.  You can't simply give people precious years of their life back.  Not to mention the tremendously difficult circumstances that could follow a prison sentence.

I certainly see your point.  From what I can tell,  most people who are in prison want to be:  A. alive,  and B: not in prison.  Both of these are things that can be accomodated if it's determined that somebody's actually innocent.  I agree that there's nor really much compensation for somebody who's spent 15 years in prison,  as we're finding out down here,  but you can damn sure make a better attempt with a living person than a dead one.

[Scheavo]

Ya, how about a little empathy. Imagine you were wrongly convicted for murdering someone; would you rather be put to death, or spend 15 years in prison before you're rightfully released?

[Sigz]

I'm willing to sacrifice the the wrongly accused for the costs.

How is executing an innocent person to save money any different than killing them and taking their money?

[jcmistat]

Ya, how about a little empathy. Imagine you were wrongly convicted for murdering someone; would you rather be put to death, or spend 15 years in prison before you're rightfully released?

I think that one is obvious everyone would choose to spend 15 years in prison to be released rather being killed. It doesn't change anything.

Empathy? What about all the victims that suffered? I've come up with a better solution. How about the victims parents or rightful guardians can decide what to do with the criminal? Let the person rot in prison or be executed? I'm still for the quick/cheap method when it comes to execution rather than the long/expensive process.

I'm willing to sacrifice the the wrongly accused for the costs.

How is executing an innocent person to save money any different than killing them and taking their money?

Killing a person and taking their money is outright wrong and they would fall into my category of those people that deserve harsh punishment. Usually that's premeditated.

Accidentally executing a innocent person although wrong is the fault of human error and there's no way around it. There are risks for everything and to me the rewards outweigh it. Should those that mess up be punished? I don't think so. Life happens.

[Scheavo]

Empathy? What about all the victims that suffered?

That's a complete non-sequitor. We're talking about innocent people, so there aren't victims who have suffered. Killing an innocent person only makes more victims, and killing someone who actually did kill someone doesn't do shit for someone who is dead, nor the families of the deceased. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[Orion1967]

For one thing,  what do you do with the prisoner who says "fuck you" when they ask for a check?  Secondly,  in a civilized society, imprisonment should be a last resort.  I actually like the fact that it costs money to throw somebody in a cell.  If there were no cost to society,  then we'd probably be tossing even more people in.  Lastly,  very spooky shit tends to happen when you combine cash and criminal justice.  When imprisoning people equals cash into coffers,  you've created a terrible situation.

I pretty much agree with 100% of this.

[jcmistat]

Empathy? What about all the victims that suffered?

That's a complete non-sequitor. We're talking about innocent people, so there aren't victims who have suffered. Killing an innocent person only makes more victims, and killing someone who actually did kill someone doesn't do shit for someone who is dead, nor the families of the deceased. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

I don't know but I disagree that death of the crime committer doesn't do anything for members grieving or the dead (if you are religious) You can't assume that.

[El Barto]

Killing a person and taking their money is outright wrong and they would fall into my category of those people that deserve harsh punishment. Usually that's premeditated.

Supporting the execution of an innocent man is no different than supporting the murder of a 7-11 clerk by some asshole thug.  You want to try and think of yourself as the better class, then knock yourself out.  You're not, though.  You demonstrate the same disregard for an innocent life as the guy robbing the clerk.  Me personally,  I'd actually rank most murderers as a step ro two above you.  They act out of principle.  Yours is lazy indifference and a desire to save a few bucks. 

[jcmistat]

In the end our points are just relative. I already knew I was going to get flak for posting my thoughts as I'm the minority but I never reached a point where I became not chill.

And please don't say, "You became un-chill the moment you stated you supported execution of an innocent man." All we can do is just stick to our beliefs and walk in opposite directions.