Criticizing others-- how much is permissible?

[Perpetual Change]

Taken, mainly, from the on-going discussion about criticizing Mike Portnoy. But I wanted to discuss it here, where we can talk about the underlying issues being brought up there more freely and without fear of going off topic.

The general idea I, and some others, have put forward is that part of being a good person toward others involves letting them know when they are doing something you really disagree with, or feel is wrong. The other opinion being put forward is that people's decisions are their own, and it's not anyone's place to but in.

Personally, I sometimes get pissy when people force me to look in the mirror. But, in the long run, I'm grateful for it and always come to appreciate people who've had the balls to put me in my place and force me to do better. I've tried to do the same with others-- holding people to standards that I myself aspire to.

I'm sure we'll all agree that there's certain times you need to speak up about something your friends are doing-- but when? When is it justified, and when are you just being a dick? Should you get on someone's case about smoking cigarettes? Cheating on their spouse? Drunk driving? What?

Where do you guys draw the line? I'm interested to see what people think.

[PraXis]

I don't get involved unless someone is physically harming someone else, such as rumors of a friend abusing his spouse. If someone has an unhealthy habit like smoking, then I wouldn't say anything since it is their body. I have a huge pet peeve about people saying anything about what I do which is a personal choice, be it liquor, a cigar, a cheeseburger, etc.

[yeshaberto]

good questions, PC.
as the old adage, "people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."  when you generally care about someone, it is natural to graciously express concerns.  and while we generally don't always take it well (which proverbs continuously notes is a lack of maturity on our part), we know that they really have our best interest at heart and eventually can learn from it.
It is my typical practice that I don't share concerns with someone that I don't care about. 

[iamtheeviltwin]

Let me put it this way:

I think I or anyone else has the right and should feel no problems "criticizing" others for what we feel are wrong-headed or mis-guided actions.  Expressing our ideas is a fundamental human right that someone should never feel compelled to squelch by outside "force" (the force of law, tradition, or manners). 

However,

I also think that the individual being criticized and others who are in on the conversation can respond in kind to the critique or method/manner of delivery.

Also a final caveat:

This also does not mean that I as an individual feel that I should be rude/condescending/etc to pass my opinions, or many times I shouldn't bring the issue up at all.  In fact, being overly confrontational is usually a good way to have whatever you say get ignored.

[BlobVanDam]

I think context is important, and the deciding factor. If a stranger walked up to you and criticized what you were wearing for example, it would be kind of rude, even if perfectly legitimate. However, if your friend said the exact same thing, the same way, it would be welcome.
If you're criticizing someone well beyond your scope of familiarity and experience, then  it will start to become rude and arrogant.

I would never lie to someone in a situation of criticism, but sometimes you also have to know when to keep quiet too.  I hate sugar coating the truth or lying to spare someone's feelings, but I also know when it's not my place to say anything at all.   

[7StringedBeast]

You give people advice when you KNOW them.  You do not know MP.  So don't give him advice on his life.  Seriously, he doesn't know who you are, so why the heck would he want to take it?  He has no gauge on whether you are a good person or a bad person to take advice from.  Secondly, if MP did not ask for advice from you, don't start giving him advice.

This is the difference between people giving MP advice and someone giving advice to their friend or a fellow forum member.

If someone from here started giving me advice that I didn't ask for, I'd probably be like "who the hell do you think you are?"

Also, you wouldn't say ANY of this shit to his face.

I understand complaining about his behavior when the shit hit the fan after the breakup.  I had my own complaints at the time.  But shit, it's been so long and it just doesn't matter anymore.  And I would never try to reach out to MP to give him "advice".  That's just dumb.  I'm not his friend.  He doesn't even know who I am.  Why would I want to give advice to someone I don't know who did not ask for it?

[KevShmev]

You give people advice when you KNOW them.  You do not know MP.  So don't give him advice on his life.  Seriously, he doesn't know who you are, so why the heck would he want to take it?  He has no gauge on whether you are a good person or a bad person to take advice from.  Secondly, if MP did not ask for advice from you, don't start giving him advice.

This is the difference between people giving MP advice and someone giving advice to their friend or a fellow forum member.

If someone from here started giving me advice that I didn't ask for, I'd probably be like "who the hell do you think you are?"

Also, you wouldn't say ANY of this shit to his face.

I understand complaining about his behavior when the shit hit the fan after the breakup.  I had my own complaints at the time.  But shit, it's been so long and it just doesn't matter anymore.  And I would never try to reach out to MP to give him "advice".  That's just dumb.  I'm not his friend.  He doesn't even know who I am.  Why would I want to give advice to someone I don't know who did not ask for it?

Good Lord, man, save this kind of rant for the Portnoy thread. 

Oh noes, I just gave you advice you didn't ask for!!!!!

[7StringedBeast]

Replace MP with any name though. 

There is a big difference between:

I think so and so should do this.

And:

So and so, you really need to do this, man.

[lonestar]

I try not to criticize anyone, but I do lose myself sometimes in the moment.  Usually I wait for someone to approach me, then I give freely.  The only time I will step outside my bounds is if another adult is in physical danger(drunk driving) or if children who can't help themselves are involved.  I have seen some enormously dangerous things(again, drunk driving with kids in car) where I couldn't stay quiet, but even then, I will try to find a calm and civil solution to the matter.  I truly hate drama of any kind, and will sell out a touch of myself at times to avoid it.  It is a two faced character defect.


And I will go out of my way to annoy the fuck out of strangers who give me shit for smoking.  When I smoke, I am aware of the people around me, and do my best to avoid getting my smoke near them, especially children.  I will put full cigarettes out if children are near.  Don't give me shit or make dramatic coughing/cover the mouth like your going to fucking die motions just because I am standing still way off the sidewalk smoking and you happen to be walking by. /smoker rant

[Perpetual Change]

You give people advice when you KNOW them.  You do not know MP.  So don't give him advice on his life.  Seriously, he doesn't know who you are, so why the heck would he want to take it?  He has no gauge on whether you are a good person or a bad person to take advice from.  Secondly, if MP did not ask for advice from you, don't start giving him advice.

This is the difference between people giving MP advice and someone giving advice to their friend or a fellow forum member.

If someone from here started giving me advice that I didn't ask for, I'd probably be like "who the hell do you think you are?"

Also, you wouldn't say ANY of this shit to his face.

I understand complaining about his behavior when the shit hit the fan after the breakup.  I had my own complaints at the time.  But shit, it's been so long and it just doesn't matter anymore.  And I would never try to reach out to MP to give him "advice".  That's just dumb.  I'm not his friend.  He doesn't even know who I am.  Why would I want to give advice to someone I don't know who did not ask for it?

The topic is criticism, not advice.

I have no idea why it'd be wrong to criticize a public figure, but like Kev said,  probably best not to get into that here.

[King Postwhore]

It really is about how malicious your intent is.  A single word's intent means everything.

[iamtheeviltwin]

Also, you wouldn't say ANY of this shit to his face.

Actually yes I would, but I have met a number of people far more famous than MP and talked frankly with them as well.  I don't suffer from "star-lock". and I tend to be pretty outspoken.

And I would never try to reach out to MP to give him "advice".

...and no one here is "reaching out" to him to give him advice...for the most part they are offering their opinions in a thread on a message board which he may or may not read...most people are responding to a situation that is being driven by the man himself and are expressing their feelings about it.

Honestly, for someone who is "over it" you have spent waay to much time today not being over it.

My unsolicited advice for you   ...is to stop reading threads that annoy you.  The current MP situation is only really being talked about in 2 threads out of hundreds on the board.  So change the channel.

[Dublagent66]

Everyone has baggage, bad habits and ruts they're stuck in.  My thing is, don't criticize unless you're willing to except criticism.  Don't criticize me about the splinter in my eye when you have a fucking tree sticking out of your face.  Don't criticize someone about something you know nothing about.  Even when someone does something that is obviously just flat out wrong, it's difficult to criticize because all of us have done things that are just flat out wrong.  How can one effectively criticize another without being hypocritical?  The OP is a rather difficult question to answer definitively.

[slycordinator]

Even when someone does something that is obviously just flat out wrong, it's difficult to criticize because all of us have done things that are just flat out wrong.  How can one effectively criticize another without being hypocritical?

Isn't that exactly what would make the criticism meaningful? If I criticize you, you could easily say "You don't even understand; you haven't been through this." But if I have, in fact, been through it, it's a different story.

[bss4life15]

It all depends on howyou say it.  If you're saying stuff like "LOL Mike Portnoy."  That's not criticism, it's just and idiotic attack.  Saying something like "His behavior over the last year or so has been un-called for and his actions are unsavory."  is a legit criticism.  If my friend just told me i'm a idiot and a asshole or some shit like that, i most likely will not respond to that criticism well.  If they say it with some tact, i am more likely to take that criticism seriously.

[patrolboat1]

The best way to post in p/r is to agree with every bosk1 post. if you even slightly disagree with him expect to find yourself banned.

[yeshaberto]

I guess you can add me to that list as well...
take this as your first and last warning