Voices vs. Breaking All Illusions

[emindead]

Voices is the best song in Awake, a superb album.
BAI is the best song in A Dramatic Turn of Events, an album that is in the same quality of When Dream and Day Unite.

Voices. Easily.

[theseoafs]

The point is, GuineaPig's post was rude, elitist, and ridiculous.

Bias that causes preference for more recent things is alive and well in DT land.

I never said the opposite was true. However, GP's statement, which could effectively be paraphrased as "everyone who prefers this song to another is incorrect and is simply blinded by the latter's newness", is still unfair.

Not that I really care to continue this argument anyway, but I figured I'd clarify.

[IronEarthTheater]

The point is, GuineaPig's post was rude, elitist, and ridiculous.

Rude? Not really.

Elitist? Perhaps.

Ridiculous? Absolutely not. You really think that two years from now, "Breaking All Illusions" will slaughter "Voices" in a poll like it is right now? Even if you disagree with GuineaPig's delivery, you can't possibly argue with his overall point. When Systematic Chaos came out, reception here was very good, but now most people put it in Dream Theater's bottom tier. When Black Clouds & Silver Linings came out, reception here was great, but now most people put it in DT's middle tier.

Bias that causes preference for more recent things is alive and well in DT land.

Not sure about this.  I do think there's something to the "new car smell," but there's ALSO something to the "remembering something so fondly because its the first album/song you got into."  I can't imagine ever liking something as much as Learning to Live.  Now, maybe that's their best song, but I love every song on Images and Words.  If I heard Another Day for the first time now, would I think it's a little cheesy?  Maybe.  But I loved it then so I love it now.  I dunno, I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as bias one way or the other. 

I also think some of the poll results are a function of the polarizing nature of Voices.  I doubt the poll would be close if it were Metropolis, Learning to Live, etc.  Voices isn't even in the top 50 songs for me.

[Jaffa]

BAI is the best song in A Dramatic Turn of Events, an album that is in the same quality of When Dream and Day Unite.

This seems like a stretch, even for you.  But fair enough.

[Irock]

Breaking All Illusions is an incredible song, but Voices is my favorite song.

Therefor I'm voting for Breaking All Illusions.

EDIT: I mean Voices. I also mean therefore.

[mrjazzguitar]

Voices.

Both are fantastic songs - both top 10 for me, but Voices is top 5.

[krands85]

Voices is awesome and my favourite song on Awake, but BAI is probably their best song post-I&W; aside from Octavarium.

I don't think I'm putting any positive bias on BAI either, things tend to grow on me over time. When BC&SL first came out for example, I was pretty disappointed with it and it's still one of my lower ranked DT albums.

[emindead]

BAI is the best song in A Dramatic Turn of Events, an album that is in the same quality of When Dream and Day Unite.

This seems like a stretch, even for you.  But fair enough.

Every week that passes it gets closer and closer to their debut quality. My days as a DT super fan are over...

[BlackInk]

Not a very big fan of Voices, Breaking All Illusions is very good.

[orcus116]

Voices easily, though BAI is a decent listen. They're just never going to make music of Voices caliber ever again.

[JayOctavarium]

voices

[RuRoRul]

I think there is definitely a factor that causes some people to rate things that are both new and good more highly than they might once it isn't so fresh (for me it's more the opposite, I know it takes me a while to like something enough for it to displace an old favourite). Personally I think a lot of the love for ADTOE is a bit like that, and it won't do so well in album rankings in the future, but I don't think BAI will suffer from it nearly as much - I think it will still be just as highly regarded in the future (if not moreso). I could be wrong, maybe BAI will be regarded about as highly as Prophets Of War is around here, that's just my guess though.

[GuineaPig]

The point is, GuineaPig's post was rude, elitist, and ridiculous.

Bias that causes preference for more recent things is alive and well in DT land.

I never said the opposite was true. However, GP's statement, which could effectively be paraphrased as "everyone who prefers this song to another is incorrect and is simply blinded by the latter's newness", is still unfair.

Not that I really care to continue this argument anyway, but I figured I'd clarify.

I didn't mean it exactly like that.  I obviously think "Voices" is the better song, but I'm used to having minority (and somewhat contrarian) views.  I was more shocked that a song that is regarded as a top 5 DT song (and among many like me, to be the best song DT's written) was being handily (at the time I posted, BAI had over 70% of the vote) defeated.  I chalked this up less to the each song's respective qualities than BAI's "newness." 

After the release of BCASL, "The Count of Tuscany" was heralded by the majority of DTF as a top 5 or top 10 DT song.  I doubt nearly that many hold the same opinion now.

Regardless, I will now choose to believe that I am solely responsible for "Voices"' turnaround in the polls, and that I have great sway over the opinions of DTF.  Soon everyone shall realize that The Prestige is a mediocre movie!

[johncal]

The point is, GuineaPig's post was rude, elitist, and ridiculous.

Rude? Not really.

Elitist? Perhaps.

Ridiculous? Absolutely not. You really think that two years from now, "Breaking All Illusions" will slaughter "Voices" in a poll like it is right now? Even if you disagree with GuineaPig's delivery, you can't possibly argue with his overall point. When Systematic Chaos came out, reception here was very good, but now most people put it in Dream Theater's bottom tier. When Black Clouds & Silver Linings came out, reception here was great, but now most people put it in DT's middle tier.

Bias that causes preference for more recent things is alive and well in DT land.

Actually, BAI might even do better in 2 years if people don't get tired of it and keep playing it. Then it's a bonified classic in its  own right. So far, everything on ADTOE is hanging in the same for me after 100 plays as good if and continually better than the first spin.

[Jaffa]

You really think that two years from now, "Breaking All Illusions" will slaughter "Voices" in a poll like it is right now? Even if you disagree with GuineaPig's delivery, you can't possibly argue with his overall point. When Systematic Chaos came out, reception here was very good, but now most people put it in Dream Theater's bottom tier. When Black Clouds & Silver Linings came out, reception here was great, but now most people put it in DT's middle tier.

Bias that causes preference for more recent things is alive and well in DT land.

Actually, BAI might even do better in 2 years if people don't get tired of it and keep playing it. Then it's a bonified classic in its  own right. So far, everything on ADTOE is hanging in the same for me after 100 plays as good if and continually better than the first spin.

Very much so this.  If you're going to point out that BAI could age poorly over time, you also have to accept the possibility that it could age well over time.

[BlobVanDam]

If BAI slays, people could dismiss it as new car smell with no evidence other than opinion.
If Voices slays, people could dismiss it as nostalgia with no evidence other than opinion.

It can work both ways, and they're both empty arguments. I'm not dismissing that the newness can and will affect how people like the song, but the only way to tell how much the newness is affecting the poll results is to do the same poll in a year or two. Until then, how about we respect people's opinions and just accept that BAI is winning because people prefer it?

[djentlemen]

voices has that whole vibe to it  , for some reason BAI isnt really my top OMG FAVOURITES songs, it kinda sounds like its not put together properly , although its one of my favs in ADTOE, nothing in that song is memorable except the solo.

i once went through a "8vm or voices for best DT song" phase, so yeah,

voices

[Jaq]

BAI. Voices has never been my favorite off Awake, BAI is my favorite off ADTOE. There you have it.

[Jaffa]

If Voices slays, people could dismiss it as nostalgia with no evidence other than opinion.

Kinda have to disagree with you on this one.  I mean, I don't disagree with the point I know you're getting at, but I take issue with this part of your post.

If someone tries to dismiss a victory for Voices as being based on nostalgia, I can go back and look at things like ariich's official DTF song ratings threads.  I can find that Voices ranked #9 in 2009 and #7 in 2011.  Therefore, I can prove with evidence that Voices has been widely perceived as a top ten Dream Theater song.  The popularity of Voices is well established in the long term.

And plus, because it is an older song, that means we have multiple perspectives on it.  We have Dream Theater newbies' opinions on Voices, and we have long time fans' opinions.  We have the opinions of people for whom Awake was their first Dream Theater album, and then we have opinions like mine - for me, Awake was actually one of the last DT albums I listened to in its entirety, and I've only been a DT fan for a little under two years.  So Voices can't really be 'nostalgic' for me. 

The point I'm trying to make is that the nostalgia argument can be argued with by looking back at the established opinions of Voices, whereas the new car smell argument can't really be argued with except by, like you said, running the poll again later and achieving similar results.

Again, I don't actually disagree with your overall point.  If people like BAI better, that's perfectly acceptable, and there's no reason to assume that it won't continue to be the case in the future.  Just saying I think the 'new car smell' argument will always hold more water than the 'nostalgia' argument.

[BlobVanDam]

And Jaffa, I'm not disagreeing with your post, since I was only using it as a comparison to say it was rude to dismiss opinions with reasons other than simply people preferring another song. Obviously there are only a smaller percentage of people here who have even been fans since Awake came out, so maybe a better way of putting it is that Voices is more established.

Anyway, my point is that people should just accept that for now the poll results are what they are. People overall prefer BAI. Whether or not it is because it's the new song is not provable right now, even if it is true (which may be the case. I'm not arguing that). We may find that it drops off over time, or we may find that over time as it has longer to sink in it swings more in BAI's favour, as BAI may click for more people, or maybe people who voted for Voices because they didn't want to be influenced by the newness of ADTOE may realize BAI has stood the test of time after all. At this point, we just don't know.
If I had to guess, I'd maybe even agree it will swing more towards Voices again, but I still find it counterproductive to assume that it's going to be the case.

[Jaffa]

I think we pretty much agree and I was just being a pedantic jerk.  =D

[BlobVanDam]

I'm known for being a pedantic jerk myself, so no problem there.
I just didn't want my core point to get lost among my rambles.

[Infinite Cactus]

Voices without hesitation.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm known for being a pedantic jerk myself, so no problem there.

And hey, no reason for any name calling is necessary, theseoafs.  The phenomena that GuineaPig mentioned is a time-honored tradition in DT history.  He didn't say anything untrue or unfair.

On topic, I LOVE Breaking All Illusions, but Voices is an all-time great.  I have no doubt that BAI will eventually reside in its illustrious company, but for now I have to give the nod to Voices.

[?]

Hmm... both are among my favorite DT songs. BAI still feels fresh due to its newness factor, but Voices is a very unique song in the DT catalog and I wish they made more stuff like that, so I have to give my vote to it.

[Edan the Man]

Voices is one of my all time favorite songs from DT... but damn I love Breaking All Illusions too. I remain undecided.

[SnakeEyes]

I'd say Voices, lyrically and Breaking All Illusions, musically.  I think Voices contains DT's best lyrics ever and that they will never, ever be topped.  They are absolutely amazing.   

[Edan the Man]

I'd say Voices, lyrically and Breaking All Illusions, musically.  I think Voices contains DT's best lyrics ever and that they will never, ever be topped.  They are absolutely amazing.   

I totally agree

[IronEarthTheater]

[/quote]



After the release of BCASL, "The Count of Tuscany" was heralded by the majority of DTF as a top 5 or top 10 DT song.  I doubt nearly that many hold the same opinion now.

[/quote]

Is that true?  I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, this may well be the case.  But I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that TCOT was as highly thought of now when it came out.  It's still a Top 5 (prob #2) song for me.  I feel like most of the people doing their Top 50 lists had it in that 5-10 range. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

BAI is the best song in A Dramatic Turn of Events, an album that is in the same quality of When Dream and Day Unite.

This seems like a stretch, even for you.  But fair enough.

Every week that passes it gets closer and closer to their debut quality. My days as a DT super fan are over...

BUT I THOUGHT WE HAD SOMETHING SPECIAL

[tweeg]

BAI is my favourite DT song in years. But Voices is very unique in the DT catalogue. Somehow no other song they wrote has near the same feeling. It's close but I'll go with Voices.

[YtseJamittaja]

BAI easily, though I do love Voices.

I don't know what is the situation after a year or more but BAI is now way better.

[nikatapi]

I like both songs, but Voices gives me chills every time i listen to it.

[Art]

Voices!

[johncal]

I hear a lot of people here say that BAI's still has the new car smell. Well, I for one like new cars and so do a lot of other people and that's OK. I guess only time will tell if they want to trade it in or hold on to it.

Then again, that's why "they" come out with new models every few years.... so you'll want to trade up. I was definitely VERY HAPPY trading up to ADTOE (and BAI).