Author Topic: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?  (Read 5903 times)

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Offline El JoNNo

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Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« on: October 18, 2011, 09:51:45 PM »
https://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/10/why_even_bother_consulting_the.php
https://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/oct/14/rick-perry-texas-censorship-environment-report?CMP=twt_gu

Quote
A group of scientists have done the right thing: they authored an environmental report, and are now publicizing the changes the Texas state administration tried to impose on it. This is going to backfire on the politicians: rather than hiding away the science that conflicts with their ideology, the censorship is highlighting the corruption and denialism.

Officials in Rick Perry's home state of Texas have set off a scientists' revolt after purging mentions of climate change and sea-level rise from what was supposed to be a landmark environmental report. The scientists said they were disowning the report on the state of Galveston Bay because of political interference and censorship from Perry appointees at the state's environmental agency.

By academic standards, the protest amounts to the beginnings of a rebellion: every single scientist associated with the 200-page report has demanded their names be struck from the document. "None of us can be party to scientific censorship so we would all have our names removed," said Jim Lester, a co-author of the report and vice-president of the Houston Advanced Research Centre.

Mother Jones has gone through the report line by line. Rick Perry's mindless zombies didn't just prune out contentious interpretations of the evidence — they cut out statements of confirmed, measurable fact, like measaurements of sea level rise in Galveston Bay. When reality conflicts with your delusions, what do you do? Rethink your delusions, or try to edit the facts?

We know what choice Perry would make.


This type of stuff is not good for the U.S.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 10:09:00 PM »
At this point, the Republican party is run like the Vatican. There's a canon you have to believe in, and if you deviate, you are excommunicated.

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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 10:14:06 PM »
This boggles my mind that people are letting the US digress in scientific progress.   

Offline Rathma

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 10:55:58 PM »
Lol what the hell is wrong with these people? Why do politicians have power to edit a scientific report?

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 07:50:50 AM »
Because they want to get their grubby little fingers on every possible amount of control they can have in the average peon's life.  Politicians are a lying bunch.  They're the clique from high school that did all they could to separate themselves from those less well off than them, and to show everybody how much better they were than everybody else.  I would venture that there's only a scant few politicians that you could truly say are decent, honest people, who truly give a shit about the people they represent.

Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 07:53:34 AM »
Lol what the hell is wrong with these people? Why do politicians have power to edit a scientific report?

Just like the IPCC has done for years to get its research grants. Two sides of the same coin.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 07:57:46 AM »
lol
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 07:58:16 AM »
This should come as no surprise at all in a state like Texas where they are also editing history books to provide a conservative narrative of United States history.

Texas is pretty much the anti-intellect capital of the United States and the Republican Party is at the head of the whole anti-intellectualism movement.


Offline snapple

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 11:36:11 AM »
This should come as no surprise at all in a state like Texas where they are also editing history books to provide a conservative narrative of United States history.

Texas is pretty much the anti-intellect capital of the United States and the Republican Party is at the head of the whole anti-intellectualism movement.

I don't get why Conservative and Intellectual have to be such opposite words? Like Science and Religion. There are no reasons why they can't work harmoniously with each other.

Barry, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but a lot of non-Conservatives on here shout out things as fact. Of course, many of  us know what opinions are, but there are things said (what you said about Texas [not the textbooks, I'm fully aware of that]) that have nothing sourced and I'm supposed to take it as if it's true?

However, on many things you DO source and cite. I appreciate that very much.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 12:25:36 PM »
This should come as no surprise at all in a state like Texas where they are also editing history books to provide a conservative narrative of United States history.

Texas is pretty much the anti-intellect capital of the United States and the Republican Party is at the head of the whole anti-intellectualism movement.
If only they read The Nation and regularly watched Kieth Olbermann, how life would truly blossom in Texas. Funny, I vaguely remember this same thing happening just a couple of years ago. What I don't remember is a post from PZ Meyers expressing outrage at the evils of censorship in that instance. Odd.

Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 12:33:42 PM »
This should come as no surprise at all in a state like Texas where they are also editing history books to provide a conservative narrative of United States history.

Texas is pretty much the anti-intellect capital of the United States and the Republican Party is at the head of the whole anti-intellectualism movement.
If only they read The Nation and regularly watched Kieth Olbermann, how life would truly blossom in Texas. Funny, I vaguely remember this same thing happening just a couple of years ago. What I don't remember is a post from PZ Meyers expressing outrage at the evils of censorship in that instance. Odd.
You owe me a new keyboard!  :rollin

Texas is doing just fine. The economy is booming and it's the best place for people who practice self-sufficiency. I'm in the process of moving there and buying some land with a nice, big house.

THERE WILL BE STEAK!

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2011, 12:48:13 PM »
I hope you enjoy moving into a desert.


Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2011, 12:51:15 PM »
The economy is great in Texas if you want to make minimum wage  :lol

Look, the Texas myth is just that, a myth.

They have no sales tax there, so do you think the state just goes without that revenue?  Guess again.  They have the third highest property tax rate in the country, and they also have more "fees" than many other states.

Texas also has one of the biggest gaps (they're amount the three highest here too) between the rich and poor in the entire country

And it has THE HIGHEST uninsured rate in the entire country.

Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2011, 01:05:34 PM »
The economy is great in Texas if you want to make minimum wage  :lol

Look, the Texas myth is just that, a myth.

They have no sales tax there, so do you think the state just goes without that revenue?  Guess again.  They have the third highest property tax rate in the country, and they also have more "fees" than many other states.

Texas also has one of the biggest gaps (they're amount the three highest here too) between the rich and poor in the entire country

And it has THE HIGHEST uninsured rate in the entire country.

The cost of living there is very low and you can live there on minimum wage much easier than in a state like NJ. Not my problem though, my east coast salary transfers.

The rich-poor gap is irrelevant to me. I will be in an affluent area in northern TX. I'll make sure any riff-raff stay away.

As for the uninsured? Most of them are illegal aliens, so I couldn't care less. TX also introduced tort reform (loser-pays legislation), so premiums are much lower than here in the north east.

The only two problems in TX are the July/August heat and illegal aliens.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2011, 01:07:55 PM »
The economy is great in Texas if you want to make minimum wage  :lol

Look, the Texas myth is just that, a myth.

They have no sales tax there, so do you think the state just goes without that revenue?  Guess again.  They have the third highest property tax rate in the country, and they also have more "fees" than many other states.

Texas also has one of the biggest gaps (they're amount the three highest here too) between the rich and poor in the entire country

And it has THE HIGHEST uninsured rate in the entire country.

The rich-poor gap is irrelevant to me. I will be in an affluent area in northern TX. I'll make sure any riff-raff stay away.


lol
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2011, 01:10:20 PM »
Actually, the riff-raff are mostly in Houston (Katrina rejects) which is hours away. Add in TX's Castle Doctrine, class 3 firearms, and a big dog, and life will be just fine and dandy.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2011, 01:13:44 PM »
Until their budget gap becomes more of an issue, their economy starts to suffer from the increasing desert conditions; and we'll see what happens with all the Federal money in Texas.

Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2011, 01:17:31 PM »
Until their budget gap becomes more of an issue, their economy starts to suffer from the increasing desert conditions; and we'll see what happens with all the Federal money in Texas.

TX has a balanced-budget amendment in their state Constitution. Their economy will stay fine because of oil and natural gas (which is causing a huge BOOM in North Dakota too). There are also cities in TX that house many corporate headquarters. Companies are flocking to the state, and so are people (typically Conservatives from California that can't take it any more).

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2011, 01:21:49 PM »
The economy is great in Texas if you want to make minimum wage  :lol

Look, the Texas myth is just that, a myth.

They have no sales tax there, so do you think the state just goes without that revenue?  Guess again.  They have the third highest property tax rate in the country, and they also have more "fees" than many other states.

Texas also has one of the biggest gaps (they're amount the three highest here too) between the rich and poor in the entire country

And it has THE HIGHEST uninsured rate in the entire country.

The cost of living there is very low and you can live there on minimum wage much easier than in a state like NJ. Not my problem though, my east coast salary transfers.

As for the uninsured? Most of them are illegal aliens, so I couldn't care less. TX also introduced tort reform (loser-pays legislation), so premiums are much lower than here in the north east.

The only two problems in TX are the July/August heat and illegal aliens.

Well, it's a good thing your east coast salary is coming with you, because you're about to start paying the same property taxes that you'd pay if you lived in New Jersey or Connecticut (read: extremely high) and I guess it's good that they passed that Tort reform, because that prevented their health insurance premiums from going up more than 91% since 2000 :|   

Seriously, though, good luck with that.   I think I'd probably kill myself before moving to Texas, but maybe you don't have a choice because of work?  (I would quit my job before being forced to move)

Hey, in any case, look on the bright side, if you have kids they can get some of that awesome and totally objective, and well funded Texas education!

Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 01:27:12 PM »
The economy is great in Texas if you want to make minimum wage  :lol

Look, the Texas myth is just that, a myth.

They have no sales tax there, so do you think the state just goes without that revenue?  Guess again.  They have the third highest property tax rate in the country, and they also have more "fees" than many other states.

Texas also has one of the biggest gaps (they're amount the three highest here too) between the rich and poor in the entire country

And it has THE HIGHEST uninsured rate in the entire country.

The cost of living there is very low and you can live there on minimum wage much easier than in a state like NJ. Not my problem though, my east coast salary transfers.

As for the uninsured? Most of them are illegal aliens, so I couldn't care less. TX also introduced tort reform (loser-pays legislation), so premiums are much lower than here in the north east.

The only two problems in TX are the July/August heat and illegal aliens.

Well, it's a good thing your east coast salary is coming with you, because you're about to start paying the same property taxes that you'd pay if you lived in New Jersey or Connecticut (read: extremely high) and I guess it's good that they passed that Tort reform, because that prevented their health insurance premiums from going up more than 91% since 2000 :|   

Seriously, though, good luck with that.   I think I'd probably kill myself before moving to Texas, but maybe you don't have a choice because of work?  (I would quit my job before being forced to move)

Hey, in any case, look on the bright side, if you have kids they can get some of that awesome and totally objective, and well funded Texas education!

The property taxes on the property I am looking at are $4,000 a year.. compared to $9800/y in NJ... and the TX house is 2800 sq foot on a few acres vs the 2000sq ft NJ house on .20 acres.

This is a voluntary transfer. Dallas has the best public school in the country btw, but my future kids will go to private. With TX public schools, you have to pay higher property taxes for the better ones (obviously), but it's nothing like in NJ in terms of cost.

There are other states with similar outcomes, but I chose TX specifically for my current position. :D

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 01:31:22 PM »
Kill yourself before moving to Texas?   I know you are exaggerating but, surely the state can't be that bad considering how many people actually live there.  I've been there, its pretty nice around the Dallas/Fort Worth area. 
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 01:35:45 PM »
Kill yourself before moving to Texas?   I know you are exaggerating but, surely the state can't be that bad considering how many people actually live there.  I've been there, its pretty nice around the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

That particular area is responsible for about half of the country's job growth the last decade!

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2011, 01:45:03 PM »
Kill yourself before moving to Texas?   I know you are exaggerating but, surely the state can't be that bad considering how many people actually live there.  I've been there, its pretty nice around the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

Of course I'm kidding.  Kind of.  :lol

I'd quit my job.  I'm not moving to fucking Texas.  I'd never move to Texas.   Population doesn't determine the quality of life.  By quite a few fairly objective criteria, the quality of life in Texas is reported as anything from bad to abysmal.

Like anyplace else, I'm sure there are nice areas, but it's way, way too hot and why would I ever even consider moving 1900 miles from my family?


Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2011, 01:47:53 PM »
Kill yourself before moving to Texas?   I know you are exaggerating but, surely the state can't be that bad considering how many people actually live there.  I've been there, its pretty nice around the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

That particular area is responsible for about half of the country's job growth the last decade!

That's not the whole story, unfortunately.  That's the spit-polished right-wing cherry picked version.  This is a more objective view, with actual data.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2011, 01:49:41 PM »

The property taxes on the property I am looking at are $4,000 a year.. compared to $9800/y in NJ... and the TX house is 2800 sq foot on a few acres vs the 2000sq ft NJ house on .20 acres.

This is a voluntary transfer. Dallas has the best public school in the country btw, but my future kids will go to private. With TX public schools, you have to pay higher property taxes for the better ones (obviously), but it's nothing like in NJ in terms of cost.

There are other states with similar outcomes, but I chose TX specifically for my current position. :D

I mean this sincerely, because you appear to be very happy about this:  Congratulations. :biggrin:

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 01:50:07 PM »
Regardless, that is some pretty great growth going on.  Why throw that point out just because of a small bump in the road when the recession hit.  Regardless of that there are a lot of minimum wage jobs, its those jobs that keep kids off the street and give people a launching point to better themselves.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2011, 01:57:39 PM »
Regardless, that is some pretty great growth going on.  Why throw that point out just because of a small bump in the road when the recession hit.  Regardless of that there are a lot of minimum wage jobs, its those jobs that keep kids off the street and give people a launching point to better themselves.

The point is, yes, there's a lot of job growth there, but half a million of those jobs pay minimum wage or less.  You want to raise a family on minimum wage?  I know a job is a job, but at some point, working at McDonalds or busting your ass for $7.25 an hour out in some 110 degree heat all day ain't as great as some people may think.

And guess who is taking the vast majority of these low wage jobs?   Hint:  They're not from Texas

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2011, 02:00:09 PM »
Regardless, that is some pretty great growth going on.  Why throw that point out just because of a small bump in the road when the recession hit.  Regardless of that there are a lot of minimum wage jobs, its those jobs that keep kids off the street and give people a launching point to better themselves.

The point is, yes, there's a lot of job growth there, but half a million of those jobs pay minimum wage or less.  You want to raise a family on minimum wage?  I know a job is a job, but at some point, working at McDonalds or busting your ass for $7.25 an hour out in some 110 degree heat all day ain't as great as some people may think.

And guess who is taking the vast majority of these low wage jobs?   Hint:  They're not from Texas

I'd rather have a state raise half a million minimum wage jobs than no jobs at all.  Growth is growth regardless.

Think about it.  You work minimum wage for a while.  Save money up.  Start taking night classes at some kind of vocational type school.  Become a  plumber or air conditioner tech.  Boom now you are making some decent money for yourself.  Thanks to that minimum wage job that you were able to get.  No you should not be raising a family on minimum wage, that part should be common sense.  Don't bash the minimum wage job for existing though.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2011, 02:04:50 PM »
Regardless, that is some pretty great growth going on.  Why throw that point out just because of a small bump in the road when the recession hit.  Regardless of that there are a lot of minimum wage jobs, its those jobs that keep kids off the street and give people a launching point to better themselves.

The point is, yes, there's a lot of job growth there, but half a million of those jobs pay minimum wage or less.  You want to raise a family on minimum wage?  I know a job is a job, but at some point, working at McDonalds or busting your ass for $7.25 an hour out in some 110 degree heat all day ain't as great as some people may think.

And guess who is taking the vast majority of these low wage jobs?   Hint:  They're not from Texas

I'd rather have a state raise half a million minimum wage jobs than no jobs at all.  Growth is growth regardless.

Think about it.  You work minimum wage for a while.  Save money up.  Start taking night classes at some kind of vocational type school.  Become a  plumber or air conditioner tech.  Boom now you are making some decent money for yourself.  Thanks to that minimum wage job that you were able to get.  No you should not be raising a family on minimum wage, that part should be common sense.  Don't bash the minimum wage job for existing though.

Save money up?  Really?  :rollin


Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2011, 02:08:34 PM »
By the way, to bring this back on topic, I vehemently disagree with the government editing or censoring ANY scientific reports or findings to fit the political agenda of those currently in power.



Offline PraXis

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2011, 02:09:55 PM »

The property taxes on the property I am looking at are $4,000 a year.. compared to $9800/y in NJ... and the TX house is 2800 sq foot on a few acres vs the 2000sq ft NJ house on .20 acres.

This is a voluntary transfer. Dallas has the best public school in the country btw, but my future kids will go to private. With TX public schools, you have to pay higher property taxes for the better ones (obviously), but it's nothing like in NJ in terms of cost.

There are other states with similar outcomes, but I chose TX specifically for my current position. :D

I mean this sincerely, because you appear to be very happy about this:  Congratulations. :biggrin:

Thanks!  :biggrin:

I can't wait to get the hell out of NJ and away from Snooki!

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2011, 02:20:11 PM »
Regardless, that is some pretty great growth going on.  Why throw that point out just because of a small bump in the road when the recession hit.  Regardless of that there are a lot of minimum wage jobs, its those jobs that keep kids off the street and give people a launching point to better themselves.

The point is, yes, there's a lot of job growth there, but half a million of those jobs pay minimum wage or less.  You want to raise a family on minimum wage?  I know a job is a job, but at some point, working at McDonalds or busting your ass for $7.25 an hour out in some 110 degree heat all day ain't as great as some people may think.

And guess who is taking the vast majority of these low wage jobs?   Hint:  They're not from Texas

I'd rather have a state raise half a million minimum wage jobs than no jobs at all.  Growth is growth regardless.

Think about it.  You work minimum wage for a while.  Save money up.  Start taking night classes at some kind of vocational type school.  Become a  plumber or air conditioner tech.  Boom now you are making some decent money for yourself.  Thanks to that minimum wage job that you were able to get.  No you should not be raising a family on minimum wage, that part should be common sense.  Don't bash the minimum wage job for existing though.

Save money up?  Really?  :rollin

Oh right I forgot, everyone starts out making 40k a year  ::)
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2011, 02:21:39 PM »

The property taxes on the property I am looking at are $4,000 a year.. compared to $9800/y in NJ... and the TX house is 2800 sq foot on a few acres vs the 2000sq ft NJ house on .20 acres.

This is a voluntary transfer. Dallas has the best public school in the country btw, but my future kids will go to private. With TX public schools, you have to pay higher property taxes for the better ones (obviously), but it's nothing like in NJ in terms of cost.

There are other states with similar outcomes, but I chose TX specifically for my current position. :D

I mean this sincerely, because you appear to be very happy about this:  Congratulations. :biggrin:

Thanks!  :biggrin:

I can't wait to get the hell out of NJ and away from Snooki!

I used to live in Paterson, I understand, believe me.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2011, 02:24:51 PM »
Regardless, that is some pretty great growth going on.  Why throw that point out just because of a small bump in the road when the recession hit.  Regardless of that there are a lot of minimum wage jobs, its those jobs that keep kids off the street and give people a launching point to better themselves.

The point is, yes, there's a lot of job growth there, but half a million of those jobs pay minimum wage or less.  You want to raise a family on minimum wage?  I know a job is a job, but at some point, working at McDonalds or busting your ass for $7.25 an hour out in some 110 degree heat all day ain't as great as some people may think.

And guess who is taking the vast majority of these low wage jobs?   Hint:  They're not from Texas

I'd rather have a state raise half a million minimum wage jobs than no jobs at all.  Growth is growth regardless.

Think about it.  You work minimum wage for a while.  Save money up.  Start taking night classes at some kind of vocational type school.  Become a  plumber or air conditioner tech.  Boom now you are making some decent money for yourself.  Thanks to that minimum wage job that you were able to get.  No you should not be raising a family on minimum wage, that part should be common sense.  Don't bash the minimum wage job for existing though.

Save money up?  Really?  :rollin

Oh right I forgot, everyone starts out making 40k a year  ::)

Come on, you know what I mean.  Saving money while making minimum wage or less?  It's practically impossible.    You can't even live on it, how are you supposed to save anything.

Those jobs are just attracting illegals...then again, Rick Perry gives them all college tuition so I guess it's all good  :tup

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Why even bother consulting the scientists at all?
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2011, 02:28:11 PM »
This is really off topic for this thread so I apologize to everyone for all this stuff.  I guess we should have a separate thread for the importance of minimum wage jobs.

But c'mon only attracting illegals?  What about high school kids?  Or kids who didn't go to college?  People between jobs?  Minimum wage jobs are a starting point.  They are not the place where anyone should end up.  How can you not see that?  You need to crawl before you walk.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?