Author Topic: The government and job creation  (Read 13785 times)

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Offline PraXis

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »
The government does not create jobs because it cannot create wealth.

Who woulda thunk. China has no wealth at all.

rumborak

They have a ton of our treasury bonds, but they're going to have a housing bubble that will make ours look tiny in comparison when it bursts.

You are evading the argument. You are repeatedly arguing that having government services being part of the economy is toxic because it can not create wealth. The example of China, a country that has remarkably bootstrapped itself out of poverty, shows how completely wrong your notion is.

rumborak

China is OUT of poverty!?  :rollin

Like in all totalitarian regimes, only the ruling class is doing well in China. Read up/watch some videos about their ghost cities. They are building huge cities, but cannot fill them because the typical Chinese citizen can't afford it... but yet their gov't keeps building these giant ghost cities. It's their housing bubble, and it will burst in a few years.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2011, 12:44:55 PM »
Orth, clearly you are outside the world of art, and don't even quite understand that world. Why would I want to copy someone else's painting? Because its better than mine. Most people can't come close to the originality of Picasso, they can't create an original that would compete. But they could take a photo of the picture, and start printing it off. Also, there's a reason print-makers often make limited number of prints, it adds to their value.

Perhaps we should just drop this topic since the outcome is personal to you.

It's not "personal" in that nature, it's just that it's an area where I do have first hand knowledge. What you propose would be problematic for these kinds of people, artists and musicians alike. You brought up musicians earlier, but they don't, under the current system, own the copyrights the songs they make; one reasons for their touring. What you would permit is not just the copying of the song, but make it legal for me to rip a CD, burn it into new ones, and sell them legally on the market. Considering my low overhead, I could do this fairly cheaply in my own home, sell the CD's for less than iTunes, and divert customers away from the real business. If done right, no one would ever know that I did it in my own home. This means the producers of the product don't get money, which limits their ability to make further products, which hampers the market from innovation; because my stealing and copying of the music did not produce anything of value, and did not contribute anything to society; rather, I leached off the success of another, and harmed the whole in the process.

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Trademarks are a form of IP. Please admit this now, or I'm done debating.

I addressed this already a few posts above:
One final note, IP is typically segregated into four sub-classes. Patent, Copyright, Trademarks and Trade Secret. Patents and Copyrights cannot exist in a true free market. Trademarks have a place and will certainly work in a free market, but their usage will be a bit different. Trade Secret's will work the same as they do now, by contract or NDA.

Ahh sorry, I remember that now. But on that point, you still have a huge gap in your philosophy, then. You first objected to patents, copyrights and IP's because of it's an intangible thing, and you shouldn't be able to tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their property. You then admit trademarks, but without any justification for why trademarks are exceptional, or how they are not problematic for the same reasons copyrights and patents are. They do tell people what they can and cannot do with their property (I, for instance, would get in trouble for replicating and selling the Nike logo). They are as intangible as most patents and copyrights.


Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2011, 03:27:06 PM »
Also, there's a reason print-makers often make limited number of prints, it adds to their value.

...

. What you would permit is not just the copying of the song, but make it legal for me to rip a CD, burn it into new ones, and sell them legally on the market. Considering my low overhead, I could do this fairly cheaply in my own home, sell the CD's for less than iTunes, and divert customers away from the real business. If done right, no one would ever know that I did it in my own home. This means the producers of the product don't get money, which limits their ability to make further products, which hampers the market from innovation; because my stealing and copying of the music did not produce anything of value, and did not contribute anything to society; rather, I leached off the success of another, and harmed the whole in the process.

That's what happens when you grant a monopoly, a print maker will intentionally limit supply to keep prices high. I seem to recall you had a problem with this type of behavior from other companies, and it's the expected behavior when the government sanctions monopolies.

No, you aren't going to compete with iTunes out of your garage, sorry. The reason they are so successful is because they provide an entire ecosystem of devices, functionality, service and superior user experience. People are willing to pay for the convenience. With regards to "leaching", you should recall that it wasn't long ago that it was the other way around. If you remember the "payola scandal's", record companies were paying radio stations to play their music over others. It should be viewed as a form of advertisement. The concerts are the real product and people pay a lot to see them. There are many other business model's as well. We already see them developing now like subscription based model's, ad based model's, some people even living off donation's or a combination of the above. There could be many more viable model's as well.

Ahh sorry, I remember that now. But on that point, you still have a huge gap in your philosophy, then. You first objected to patents, copyrights and IP's because of it's an intangible thing, and you shouldn't be able to tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their property. You then admit trademarks, but without any justification for why trademarks are exceptional, or how they are not problematic for the same reasons copyrights and patents are. They do tell people what they can and cannot do with their property (I, for instance, would get in trouble for replicating and selling the Nike logo). They are as intangible as most patents and copyrights.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer than I already have. A trademark is not receiving special treatment, it is not "regulated". The use of trademarks is also not restricting anyone. A trademark has nothing to do with form, function or workmanship, so someone changing a name has no real impact. Further, there is nothing to stop you from copying another trademark, it may be the case that no one cares if you use it and multiple people could use the same one without any problems. However, there is a chance you could be charged with false advertising and it's up to the courts to sort it out.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2011, 04:58:52 PM »
Also, there's a reason print-makers often make limited number of prints, it adds to their value.

...

. What you would permit is not just the copying of the song, but make it legal for me to rip a CD, burn it into new ones, and sell them legally on the market. Considering my low overhead, I could do this fairly cheaply in my own home, sell the CD's for less than iTunes, and divert customers away from the real business. If done right, no one would ever know that I did it in my own home. This means the producers of the product don't get money, which limits their ability to make further products, which hampers the market from innovation; because my stealing and copying of the music did not produce anything of value, and did not contribute anything to society; rather, I leached off the success of another, and harmed the whole in the process.

That's what happens when you grant a monopoly, a print maker will intentionally limit supply to keep prices high. I seem to recall you had a problem with this type of behavior from other companies, and it's the expected behavior when the government sanctions monopolies.

No, you aren't going to compete with iTunes out of your garage, sorry. The reason they are so successful is because they provide an entire ecosystem of devices, functionality, service and superior user experience. People are willing to pay for the convenience. With regards to "leaching", you should recall that it wasn't long ago that it was the other way around. If you remember the "payola scandal's", record companies were paying radio stations to play their music over others. It should be viewed as a form of advertisement. The concerts are the real product and people pay a lot to see them. There are many other business model's as well. We already see them developing now like subscription based model's, ad based model's, some people even living off donation's or a combination of the above. There could be many more viable model's as well.

I admit that, currently due to things not related to patents, copyrights, etc, my CD example is woefully out of date, but it's not incorrect for anything within the example. I could leach a CD, burn it to a disk, copy the artwork, etc, and have it cost me under $3 a pop. I could sell the CD's for $6's, making a great profit margin, whilst the record company has to sell them for more to keep a profit. Forget this exact example if you want to, it doesn't matter that the scene is changing, becuase this sort of thing would still apply to all other kinds of art. Say I spend hours designing a certain product, and then someone else copies it in under five minutes, and sells it for money. They don't have the labor overhead, therefor it is more profitable for them, that person will do well, I won't, but then we'll be out of the people coming up with the idea's for people to copy and steal.

Actually, I don't have a problem with a producer limiting supply, I merely pointed out that companies do it, which goes against what you're saying. Companies can not (as in, are able to not) produce all they want (I might make exceptions when that intentional under-producing puts peoples lives at risk, say in medicine); especially when we get down to the individual artist, where controlling the supply is often his livelihood.

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Ahh sorry, I remember that now. But on that point, you still have a huge gap in your philosophy, then. You first objected to patents, copyrights and IP's because of it's an intangible thing, and you shouldn't be able to tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their property. You then admit trademarks, but without any justification for why trademarks are exceptional, or how they are not problematic for the same reasons copyrights and patents are. They do tell people what they can and cannot do with their property (I, for instance, would get in trouble for replicating and selling the Nike logo). They are as intangible as most patents and copyrights.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer than I already have. A trademark is not receiving special treatment, it is not "regulated". The use of trademarks is also not restricting anyone. A trademark has nothing to do with form, function or workmanship, so someone changing a name has no real impact. Further, there is nothing to stop you from copying another trademark, it may be the case that no one cares if you use it and multiple people could use the same one without any problems. However, there is a chance you could be charged with false advertising and it's up to the courts to sort it out.

There is nothing stopping me from copying a copyright, it may be the case that the person who owns the copyright doesn't care, nor have any problems. Copyright infringements go to court, where the debate is settled just like in trademarking. There is a difference, obviously, between the two, but both trademarking and patents arise out of the concept of intellectual property, a concept you deny as valid.

You continue to evade the fact that investors won't see a reason to invest if they can't be guaranteed some profit at the end of it. Taxation is supposed to reduce incentive for investors, how is getting rid of copyrights and patents going to not hamper incentive? Explain that to me, please.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2011, 05:48:40 PM »
Sheavo, how about reading this.

https://mises.org/daily/5025/The-Fight-Against-Intellectual-Property

It will give some context to what I'm advocating and answer a lot of your questions. It is kind of long, but not too bad. It also has a short history of the evolution of IP theory among Libertarians.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2011, 06:44:07 PM »
Why does everyone forget the C?

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Rather, intellectual property rights are the product of government fiat — of statutes that grant inventors, writers, and artists a monopoly privilege to use certain ideas for certain lengths of time.

Trademarks have been in development for centuries, and they were originally a private endeavor, having nothing to do with the government.

Come to think of it, property rights are a product of government fiat as well. My ability to claim this as my property, and for you to respect it as my property, requires a government to protect me and my rights. Without government, I may claim some property, but someone may strong arm me out of it, or try to. I would then have to protect myself, and there's no guarantee that I would be successful. Rights are all social creations, the are all enforced and back up by the government, without which, you have on actual, practical rights (only rights in theory, which amounts to as much as an idea of food when I'm starving).

Property is not some innate thing, it is a human concept. There are well-known human societies which have functioned without libertarians conceptions of property, therefor property is not some innate right as the author tries to make it out to be - it is a positive right, afforded to you by mutual agreement between your fellow man and yourself.

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Land and tangible items are subject to becoming private property in this way because they are scarce.

The author tries to distinguish between property and intellectual property in this fashion, but this distinction doesn't hold water. Two people may be able to hold the same idea's and thoughts at the same time, but the creator of those thoughts and idea's are certainly scarce. Not everyone is a Picasso, or a Bill Gates. The kind of scarcity talked about in the article is dealt with in standard IP laws which put a limit on the claim; because idea's are so transferable, and sharable, they should not be limited forever. Rather, the limitation is a way to give credit where credit is due, and to motivate people in such a way. Pretty much, I would say this is what is meant by the statement, "Greed is good," even though that statement is horrible to my ears. Are you now going to deny that greed is good?

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or at least, creative people wouldn't produce "enough" of these types of works, whatever that means.

Lazy attempt at a counter-argument. Without copyrights, creative people wouldn't have the physical ability, due to having to work other jobs, not having money, etc, to produce their arts. True, their desire to create would not go away, but their ability to would. Companies may want to invest, but they may not have the capital to do so.

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After all, for most of history, there were no copyrights, but people still created great literature, art, and music.

Through out most of history, our economy wasn't a global economy, where, as the author points out earlier, someone halfway across the globe, whom you've never met, could very easily come into contact with your idea. When the market-place is more-or-less your city, or a small region around that city, it's possible to monitor things on your own, to call someone out for stealing your idea, and for people to know where the idea cam from originally. Not so today.

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Suppose Shakespeare had lived in a world where copyright existed. As one writer put it, "his legal bills would have been staggering."[15] Shakespeare made a unique contribution to Western civilization by putting words together in a way that no human being had before or since, but he was not a pure original. He took many stories, characters, and ideas from other works by other people — which he wouldn't have been able to do if the creators of those previous works had possessed and enforced copyrights.

It would depend upon the level to which he took those character's, also the the level to which those authors didn't care. Dream Theater is often accused of taking other bands rifts, "tributes" as you will;" but they have never once gotten in any legal trouble. Authors often do the same in their works, it's called an allusion. Also, since IP rights expire, depending on how old the art is, you're free to take whatever you want. This specific argument doesn't acknowledge that aspect.

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And what of copyright protection for Shakespeare's own plays? He authored 38 plays without any incentive or protection from copyright law, and he managed to prosper besides. It's difficult to see how copyright would have prompted him to create more.
.

Again, it's a completely different market-place. In the age of digital media, especially, this point becomes invalid. If he tried to make money in today's market, with no copyright or protections, his product would be swamped, quickly, by exact duplicates, or given away for free on-line for ad money, none of which goes to the man himself.

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One can imagine, though, that if copyright had existed in Shakespeare's day, he might have spent his some of his time and effort suing people who sold transcriptions of his plays or performed them without permission, and devoted less of his time to writing, and we would all be immeasurably poorer for it.

Lol. For starter's, he would've hired a lawyer to do those things for him; secondly, there is nothing in current law to prevent Shakespeare from letting other people perform his work. What would happen is he would be approached by someone, offering him money in return for the rights to perform the play. The author seems to be constantly assuming that everyone is going to be the utmost clingy to their product, when in fact that is only happening now due to excessive corporate and economical greed.

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Writers today could make money without copyright even if they're not modern-day Shakespeares. Of course, even with copyright protection, most authors whose names are not Stephen King or J.K. Rowling don't make much money from book royalties. Instead, publishing a book gives an author prestige and opportunities to do other things. Publishing in academic journals (for no pay) creates opportunities to get teaching jobs. Publishing books for a popular audience (usually for low pay) may raise one's profile as an expert and create opportunities to give speeches or do other things for money.

It may not be a money-making endeavor, but the author again completely forgets to examine how the person is able to publish books, to gain renown, to make the money that they do make. At the very least, you must admit that the selling of books pays for their publishing, which allows for the publicity. I could also very easily argue that corporate greed funnels royalties away from the writer, thereby corrupting much of the logic behind a patent to begin with.

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One reason we can be confident of this is because books by foreign authors did not receive copyright protection in the United States for most of the 19th century, yet the authors made money here anyway. A publisher would pay an author to be the first to receive a copy of the author's manuscript, which would allow the publisher to be first publisher to reach the market with the book.[16]

Again, modern marketplace and technologies. The advantage that first publisher had to the marketpalce would disapear with modern scanning, printing, and other technologies.

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Two weeks after Norton's edition came out, St. Martin's released its own edition, with additional articles and analysis included, and it too became a bestseller.

Now, on the whole, I do think the author brings up some interesting points, but it is very biased in it's analysis. Perhaps big authors like J.K Rowling would be around still, but what about the smaller authors? The ones who don't make much money off selling their book? In a smaller market like that, even if you get 80% of the total profits (as exampled by the article), that may be too low to keep the operation profitable. But see, this is just saying that what I'm contending is true, only that it's small, so somehow that's okay. It would be like me saying it's fine for me to steal $1,000,000 from Bill Gates, because he would never notice it gone.

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If you own a patent on a mechanical rice picker, that means you can stop other people from building a better rice picker that's based on yours. For a number of years, your potential competitors can't legally innovate and improve your product — or at least, if they do, they can't bring their innovation to market without your permission until the patent expires.

This actually brings up a good point, but such a problem is easily addressable within IP laws. Make the improvement of someone else's IP shared property, 50/50, or 80/20, or can be argued as fair. Or we could make it all the new guys innovation. But if we shared it, that would incentivize people to not only innovate, but share their invention so that other people can improve upon it, and they would still get some guaranteed loyalties.

Patents:

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The first person to implement an idea would still receive exclusive benefits for some period of time, because even without patents, it would take a while for the competition to figure out how to imitate the invention and catch up.

Varies a lot with the product, it's production, and what kind of innovation and patent we're talking about. Some patent idea's are very easy to replicate, and wouldn't take much retooling and changes. Also, again, the reduced profit gain could be enough to make a possible investment not worth the risk.



tl;dr


Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2011, 10:12:26 PM »
Scheavo, I sent you a PM to further discuss the topic.

Now who wants to talk about Jobs. Obama's got a plan right?

Offline rumborak

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2011, 04:08:55 AM »
Nobody has a plan, frankly. Both sides have a recipe they are trying to push, neither of which is particularly convincing in its ability to stimulate the economy.

rumborak
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Offline Tanatra

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2011, 06:04:11 AM »
Obama is going to make an announcement here in Denver on Wednesday regarding assistance for those with student loans, and apparently it won't require Congressional approval. I wanted to try and attend, but it seems that only University of Denver students and faculty are eligible. I don't see how student loan assistance will help in the job front, though.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2011, 12:25:39 PM »
Obama is going to make an announcement here in Denver on Wednesday regarding assistance for those with student loans, and apparently it won't require Congressional approval. I wanted to try and attend, but it seems that only University of Denver students and faculty are eligible. I don't see how student loan assistance will help in the job front, though.

85% of college graduates move back in with their parents due to the strain of student loans. Additionally, not having pay back student loans would give students more money, money which could be spent on the economy, rather than filling up the log sheets of some bank.

I doubt it would be a great thing economically, but it's a good thing for our educational system. I think it's also Obama starting to figure out his ability as President, knowing what he can and cannot do without congressional authority. He's putting pressure on Republicans to show how they are not simply stalling and playing politics with this countries economy for their own personal gain.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2011, 12:50:48 PM »
Obama is going to make an announcement here in Denver on Wednesday regarding assistance for those with student loans, and apparently it won't require Congressional approval. I wanted to try and attend, but it seems that only University of Denver students and faculty are eligible. I don't see how student loan assistance will help in the job front, though.

85% of college graduates move back in with their parents due to the strain of student loans. Additionally, not having pay back student loans would give students more money, money which could be spent on the economy, rather than filling up the log sheets of some bank.

I doubt it would be a great thing economically, but it's a good thing for our educational system. I think it's also Obama starting to figure out his ability as President, knowing what he can and cannot do without congressional authority. He's putting pressure on Republicans to show how they are not simply stalling and playing politics with this countries economy for their own personal gain.

So, people should not be responsible to pay off their debts? The truth is, education costs are in a bubble. It is being driven a lot by government programs to put more people in advanced degree's. The problem is made even worse when most graduates don't have any useful skills after receiving their degree.

I think the entire paradigm of education will face a cross-roads soon. Advanced degree's will lose their "value" and instead people will go towards trade schools or push more internships to allow students to gain practical skills that business's want. Acadamia still has a place, and certain industries will still demand it, but I think there will be a lot of consolidation in the future.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2011, 02:27:49 PM »
How is changing the interest rate, and the consolidation, of your loans not paying back your debt? No one has said let's get rid of the student loans debt, but restructure it. There's a big difference there.

Also, I agree that our educational system is fubar, but it's not becuase of public financing for it. European countries don't have the problems are system does, and they pay for higher education as well. Obviously there are other factors involved (most obviously, the corporatization/privitization/capitalisization of our higher educational system).

Offline Tanatra

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2011, 07:39:59 PM »
Obama is going to make an announcement here in Denver on Wednesday regarding assistance for those with student loans, and apparently it won't require Congressional approval. I wanted to try and attend, but it seems that only University of Denver students and faculty are eligible. I don't see how student loan assistance will help in the job front, though.

85% of college graduates move back in with their parents due to the strain of student loans. Additionally, not having pay back student loans would give students more money, money which could be spent on the economy, rather than filling up the log sheets of some bank.

More money in the economy could bring about job growth indirectly, but this does raise an interesting question - the economy seems to benefit little from more money (in the form of tax breaks) to the wealthy, but what if that money were put into the hands of the masses? Nationwide student loan forgiveness will never happen because it could easily run into the hundreds of billions and it sets a bad precedent, but it makes me wonder if that would have been tax dollars better spent than whatever Obama's stimulus money went towards.

Offline livehard

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2011, 10:08:09 PM »
Nobody has a plan, frankly. Both sides have a recipe they are trying to push, neither of which is particularly convincing in its ability to stimulate the economy.

rumborak

That is completely wrong.  I think the libretarians have a plan, and have always had a plan.  In fact, they are the only party that has consistent philosophy.  The other sides cant seem to come up with a coherent reason of why to nationalize to some programs but not others, bailout some companies but not others, etc...

Offline livehard

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2011, 10:21:31 PM »
What I want is to understand the fundamental philosophy of the republicans and democrats. What is the underlying moral guidelines that dictate what government should/shouldn't do...  It just seems like they both fly by the seat of their pants and decide off the hip what the government should fund and what it shouldn't.  Public schools? Sure Public grocery stores? No way.  Cancer research? Of course! Stem cells? nah...

No politician from the republican or democratic side have any sort of values from which they draw their political philosophy... Its just a hodgepodge of unconnected ideas and theories.  Say what you want about libertarians, but at least they have a clear coherent moral philosophy from which they draws their ideals of what government should and should not do.

Offline Riceball

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2011, 11:17:26 PM »
The way I see it, its the rise of opinion polls/focus groups, the 24 hour news cycle and public ignorance that have led developed world politics to where it is now; fragmented and populist. There is no incentive to do anything based on an underlying ideology, its all about appearances and survival.
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2011, 12:35:31 AM »
@livehard, you nailed it. Libertarianism is consistent because it is a philosophy. The "hodge-podge of unconnected ideas" is another definition for ideology. It's just an adhoc world view.

Offline rumborak

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2011, 12:36:11 AM »
Nobody has a plan, frankly. Both sides have a recipe they are trying to push, neither of which is particularly convincing in its ability to stimulate the economy.

rumborak

That is completely wrong.  I think the libretarians have a plan, and have always had a plan.  In fact, they are the only party that has consistent philosophy.

Jeez, no, the Libertarians are the worst when it comes to pushing a recipe.

rumborak
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2011, 09:01:30 AM »

Jeez, no, the Libertarians are the worst when it comes to pushing a recipe.

rumborak

Lol, no, not the worst. It just happens to be the same every time. The reason people don't like it is because a lot of people have a hard time with a proposal that requires them to have personal responsibility.

Offline livehard

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2011, 09:03:17 AM »
How.  They have always had a clear definition of what they believed in.  The maximum amount of freedom for people as long as they don't inhibit the freedoms of others.

Their stance on all fiscal issues can be summed up pretty easily.  You know exactly where they stand on anything from public schools, accounting regulations, to enviornmental matters, to the court system.  Republicans and democrats could just as easily agree or disagree on these issues. Its such a personal thing being a democrat or a republican that none of it makes too much sense anymore.  Just look at what we call those on the left - liberals.

Offline PraXis

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2011, 11:03:26 AM »
Dr. Ron Paul has a plan, and he's the only one with the stones to put one this comprehensive out there.

https://www.ronpaul.com/2011-10-17/ron-pauls-plan-to-restore-america/

The site has a link to the PDF, 11 pages.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2011, 12:21:45 PM »
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Cuts totaling $1 trillion during the first year of a Paul Presidency would be achieved by eliminating five federal cabinet departments – the Departments of Energy, Housing and Urban Development, Commerce, Interior and Education.

How does Paul plan on selling that idea to people?

Because, honestly, to me that looks a lot like: "Hey, all you people who work for these departments? We're firing you. And if you rely on public trans or public housing, we're kicking you out. Oh, and, no matter who you are, we're closing your school! This is what liberty is about!"

I may be oversimplifying it, or wrong altogether. That's what it looks like to me on first glance, though. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2011, 12:42:16 PM »
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Cuts totaling $1 trillion during the first year of a Paul Presidency would be achieved by eliminating five federal cabinet departments – the Departments of Energy, Housing and Urban Development, Commerce, Interior and Education.

How does Paul plan on selling that idea to people?

Because, honestly, to me that looks a lot like: "Hey, all you people who work for these departments? We're firing you. And if you rely on public trans or public housing, we're kicking you out. Oh, and, no matter who you are, we're closing your school! This is what liberty is about!"

I may be oversimplifying it, or wrong altogether. That's what it looks like to me on first glance, though. Please tell me I'm wrong.

You're looking at it from a very narrow lense when all you see is the "cuts" to federal program's. The argument is that these industries have been hobbled by federal oversight and many of the problem's are due to bureaucrats.

Take education for example, there has been a precipitous decline in the quality of education for decades. Many kids are graduating high school and are functionally illiterate. Now, if someone were to come in blind to the situation and see how bad things are getting, the first question asked would be. Who is educating the children?

Now, why has public education been such a dismal failure. It's not for a lack of money, the funds pumped into it has only grown year-over-year. It isn't because the teacher's are incompetent or the student's are unteachable. It's because public education has no real competition. There is no profit/loss mechanism telling it how it is doing. Revenue's are disassociated from its product. The curriculum is centrally planned and may not be suitable from one region to the next and the children themselves have virtually no say in the direction of their education. Perhaps the whole thing should just be scrapped and started over, instead of strung along as it is. Libertarians only argue that we allow the market to provide it, much like it was in the late 19th century before public education and we had the highest literacy rate in our nations history.

This same logical deduction applies to all other federal departments.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2011, 12:48:04 PM »
Seems like the right plan, wrong time. Sorry, but getting rid of public education and transporation, and kicking people out of their homes and federal jobs at a time when employment is already the biggest issue does not look good, no matter how you slice it. It actually makes me think of the Dark Ages.

It's really no surprise Ron Paul only has 1 percent of the GOP vote right now. Even they realize his measures would lead the States down that path.

Honestly, when people actually have jobs again we can start talking about doing away with those departments. Cutting them randomly may balance the budget, but it's not going to put Americans to work at a time when they need it the most.

Offline PraXis

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2011, 12:54:49 PM »
What makes federal employees in these excessive (and let's face it, useless) departments so special over anyone else in the private sector? If their task is no longer necessary, then they are free to use their accumulated skills in the marketplace, like the rest of us.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2011, 12:57:47 PM »
Fine. Let's make sure the "private sector" has something ready then, before we do away with what we got now.

You don't just get rid of things people rely on, and then wait for the magic-clothes-iron of the market to straighten out the wrinkles over the next couple of generations. Especially when things are as bad as they are now.

Offline PraXis

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2011, 01:08:30 PM »
The federal budget needs to get its finances under serious order. Instead of spending $20 billion a year on AIR CONDITIONING in Iraq and Afghanistan, we could use that money here. We could also save a bunch of money by getting our troops out of Germany, Japan, and South Korea. They can pay for their own defense.

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2011, 01:14:14 PM »
The federal budget needs to get its finances under serious order. Instead of spending $20 billion a year on AIR CONDITIONING in Iraq and Afghanistan, we could use that money here. We could also save a bunch of money by getting our troops out of Germany, Japan, and South Korea. They can pay for their own defense.

Oh god.  We aren't defending Germany and Japan from anything we use their countries as launching points and medical facilities.  So you can thank those countries for allowing us to be there.  It's a mutual relationship.  We are still fighting the Korean War.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline rumborak

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2011, 07:29:58 PM »
Praxis, this is the second time you're posting this bullshit about the US defending Japan and Europe. Do you even read other people's responses?

rumborak
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2011, 08:11:55 PM »
Now, why has public education been such a dismal failure. It's not for a lack of money, the funds pumped into it has only grown year-over-year. It isn't because the teacher's are incompetent or the student's are unteachable. It's because public education has no real competition. There is no profit/loss mechanism telling it how it is doing. Revenue's are disassociated from its product. The curriculum is centrally planned and may not be suitable from one region to the next and the children themselves have virtually no say in the direction of their education. Perhaps the whole thing should just be scrapped and started over, instead of strung along as it is. Libertarians only argue that we allow the market to provide it, much like it was in the late 19th century before public education and we had the highest literacy rate in our nations history.

What exactly do you mean by "allow the market to provide it"? If you mean allow the market to provide funding for education, I fully disagree with you. If you mean allow the market to provide administration of education, I fully agree with you. The problem isn't that education is subsidized in this country, otherwise we wouldn't be falling behind countries which subsidize their public's education more than we do in America.

Offline PraXis

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2011, 09:17:14 PM »
Praxis, this is the second time you're posting this bullshit about the US defending Japan and Europe. Do you even read other people's responses?

rumborak

It's not bullshit. It's true. We have 900 military bases in 130 countries. FOR WHAT!?!?!?  >:(

Bring them all home.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2011, 10:31:08 PM »
What exactly do you mean by "allow the market to provide it"? If you mean allow the market to provide funding for education, I fully disagree with you. If you mean allow the market to provide administration of education, I fully agree with you. The problem isn't that education is subsidized in this country, otherwise we wouldn't be falling behind countries which subsidize their public's education more than we do in America.

It means the schools are unincorporated, unsubsidized, privately owned and administrated. Services are purchased openly. There is a lot more to it than that, but this is the cliff notes.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2011, 10:54:39 PM »
What exactly do you mean by "allow the market to provide it"? If you mean allow the market to provide funding for education, I fully disagree with you. If you mean allow the market to provide administration of education, I fully agree with you. The problem isn't that education is subsidized in this country, otherwise we wouldn't be falling behind countries which subsidize their public's education more than we do in America.

It means the schools are unincorporated, unsubsidized, privately owned and administrated. Services are purchased openly. There is a lot more to it than that, but this is the cliff notes.

Unincorporated, as in no corporations? Because that means people couldn't come together, to form a school with investors, etc; once you start getting multiple investors, you start running into contractual agreements which are corporations. Or do you mean unincorporated, as in, not related to the government? Cause I agree that they should be fully private endeavors.

Care to meet in the middle, and agree to subsidization, or are you convinced of private charities?

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #103 on: October 26, 2011, 11:11:52 PM »
Unincorporated, as in no corporations? Because that means people couldn't come together, to form a school with investors, etc; once you start getting multiple investors, you start running into contractual agreements which are corporations. Or do you mean unincorporated, as in, not related to the government? Cause I agree that they should be fully private endeavors.

Care to meet in the middle, and agree to subsidization, or are you convinced of private charities?

Unincorporated, meaning it is not a State sponsored entity. Private investors/venture capital etc will be involved contractually, but I avoid using the term Corporation to represent private contracts as to not confuse the it with the State sponsored entity.

Private charities are fine, but will ultimately not be necessary as the price is driven down over time.

Offline Rathma

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Re: The government and job creation
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2011, 12:00:50 AM »
The way I see it, its the rise of opinion polls/focus groups, the 24 hour news cycle and public ignorance that have led developed world politics to where it is now; fragmented and populist. There is no incentive to do anything based on an underlying ideology, its all about appearances and survival.

Ideologies are for when times are good. Right now people are just trying to put the system back together!