Author Topic: France vs. Germany  (Read 3637 times)

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Offline AndyDT

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France vs. Germany
« on: May 15, 2012, 02:50:36 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18067852
Hollande doesn't sound like he'll take leadership from Germany. Is this tough talk or does he mean it?

Offline soundgarden

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 06:59:51 AM »
Hollande is going to quickly realize that the austerity measures he so frequently denounced are essential.  The rest of Europe cannot suffer austerity while they French expands its budget blindly.  Hes gonna give in to Merkel's plans.  He is finishing up his pollitical showmanship in light of the election.  Soon he is gonna realize that working with Merkel's plans alreadly began with Sarkozy is best for the Euro.

Offline Riceball

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 11:38:05 PM »
I think it's mostly bluff and wind from Hollande. The anti-austerity rhetoric out of Greece, however, is an issue. Given where they are at now, they've really got nothing to lose except their shiny Euro badge by exiting the common currency. I've always thought that they would stay because they have no alternative, but the political will may win over the economic imperative. In the long-run, its probably better for everyone that Greece isn't in the common currency, but in the short-term it will definately fuck shit up.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 12:01:01 AM »
What's wrong with being anti-austerity?
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Offline Riceball

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 07:14:26 PM »
Nothing at all :D its just that Germany is so ardent in its support of austerity that "Hollande's Way" may cause tension and create uncertainty. And the anti-austerity rhetoric from Greece will mean that they either a) default, b) are pushed out of the EU or c) all of the above.

In other news, I've been working on a note this morning about the new phase of the crisis (post to follow).
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Offline Riceball

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 07:18:07 PM »
For those with a tendency to hit tl;dr, skip to the bottom paragraphs.

Economic Note: Europe Update
Politics re-enters the crisis…
In recent weeks the European sovereign debt crisis has entered a new, uncertain phase, on the back of a change of President in France (one of the “gang-of-two” countries that have been staunch advocates of austerity policies) and an inconclusive election result in Greece.

The right-leaning French President Nicolas Sarkozy (one half of “Merkozy”) was defeated by Socialist Party candidate Francois Hollande, in a result which was seen as a vote against further austerity measures . Commentators in Europe have predicted that Hollande will be on a “collision course” with German Chancellor Angela Merkel (the other half of “Merkozy”) given Hollande’s election rhetoric about the need to target growth as the crisis circuit breaker, rather than further austerity which has been the Merkozy mantra . However, in a meeting between Hollande and Merkel overnight, the rhetoric did not seem to translate into immediate action, which could indicate the Hollande victory may not be the “game changer” it was predicted to be.

By stark contrast, the inconclusive result in Greece appears to be a real game changer. A summary of the election in Greece can be found in last week’s Trendline , but in essence two key things occurred: the two ruling coalition parties, which held almost three quarters of the vote between them, received just under one third of total votes; while a number of extreme left and right wing parties managed to gather enough votes to enter parliament . As a result of this, many attempts have been made since the election to form workable coalition governments, with three distinctive phases: first through the two major parties, second through a coalition of left-wing parties completely opposed to the European Union (called Syrzia), and finally a group of “technocrats and personalities” – all of which have failed. Subsequently, the Greeks are heading back to the polls on 17 June , injecting a fresh wave of uncertainty.

…but the economics isn’t much better
In the middle of all of this, the data flow out of Europe and China has been somewhat weak, with a surge in German exports saving the European Union from entering a technical recession in the March quarter . The EU economy recorded a flat (0.0 per cent) growth outcome in March, which followed a 0.2 percentage point contraction in December. This result was supported heavily by an unexpected 0.5 per cent growth in Germany, with France flat and most other nations recording falling GDP.

Compounding this has been a range of weaker than expected data from China; with industrial production, trade volumes and asset investment all coming in lower than market forecasts . This caused Beijing to ease lending conditions for banks over the weekend, and many China economists expect further easing in the months ahead (contingent on a continued easing in inflation, which was the driver behind tighter policy over the course of 2011).

What does this mean: short term
At this stage, it appears the turmoil has been confined to financial markets – although not interbank lending.

The renewal of the debt crisis has sent significant shockwaves through global markets over the past two weeks, with investors pulling out of risky assets and fleeing to safe havens like US Government Bonds, German Bunds (both of which are at record lows) and gold. European stock markets have been the hardest hit, naturally, with the Grecian index hitting a multi-decade low and is now sitting at 11 per cent of its pre-GFC peak. Commodity prices have also been hit, with oil back around US$90 a barrel (from US$115 about a month ago).

Australia has not been immune, with the Aussie dollar falling to around US$0.98 – its lowest level this year. This trend emerged following the Reserve Bank’s meeting in May (where rates were cut by 50 basis points) although it has accelerated in recent days. Meanwhile, the stock market has fallen for six of the past nine sessions by up to 2.5 per cent, with resources stocks particularly hit.

However, key interbank lending rates, which measure the price banks charge to lend to one another, continue to remain moderate, with no significant movement over the past couple of weeks – although in saying that the downward trend which had commenced following the two LTRO (aka money printing by the European Central Bank) issues has halted.

Negative news will no doubt be impacting confidence, with the results of our June quarter Survey of Business Expectations particularly timely (given we mailed out in the week following the Greece/France elections).

Any economic impact at this stage would appear to hinge on the outcomes of a fresh Greek election. The caretaker government in Greece is continuing to fulfil its EU-IMF bailout obligations, and so the prospect for a default in the next couple of weeks is remote. The only way this could occur is if the European Central Bank decided to cut Greece loose, which would no doubt create financial turmoil at a similar scale to the Lehman Brothers crisis.
What does this mean: A Greek exit (aka Grexit, actually no, Greek exit)

As the weeks have progressed, more and more chatter has turned to what the “exit strategy” for Greece and the Euro area would potentially mean for the world economy. This could come in two ways: a Greek default, which would almost certainly lead to an expulsion from the EU; or Greece is simply cut adrift by the ECB and European Union.

Greek Default
While a country defaulting on its debts is nothing new (the most recent case has been Ecuador in 2008, while the US defaulted as recently as 1971 and the UK has defaulted five times); the advent of a default in a common currency area such as the Euro Zone has not happened before. The complicating factor is that all 17 nations use the same currency, and also have the same monetary policy (ie interest rates), which would be thrown completely out of joint in the event of a default. The European banking system is also quite intertwined, with private banks in most European nations having direct exposure to Greek government debt, while the ECB – and therefore all European governments – have direct exposure to Greece’s banking system.

So if the Greek Government was to default, it would send shocks directly to both its domestic banking system and the wider European banking system. This would likely cause a “credit event” like that which occurred following the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy and would likely see wholesale funding markets (ie interbank lending markets) freeze up. The scale could be larger, given the amount of money that has been given to Greece over the past few years in order to prop it up.

There would be a rush to pull money out of Greek banks and institutions, which would cause further issues in the Greek domestic banking sector and would likely see a number of Greek banks themselves declare bankruptcy. A cascading effect may also occur in this regard, with investors pulling out of other peripheral countries such as Portugal, Ireland, Spain and even Italy; which would magnify the impacts described in the previous paragraph. This is perhaps the worst case scenario, but one which would have the most impact and cannot be ruled out all together.

A Greek Exit
The other potential outcome, which could come either as a result of Greece defaulting or lead to a Greek default, is for Greece to leave the Euro Zone and stop using the Euro as its currency. Increasingly, the chatter from a number of journalists and commentators has been turning to how this would occur, how it would be managed, and the fallout for the global economy. The consensus is, however, that this kind of event will need to be “sprung” on markets, otherwise the consequences of investors, financiers, banks and governments preparing for this to happen on a certain day will lead to more financial chaos than would otherwise occur.

The likely course of action would be a complete, immediate containment of Greece from financial markets and the global economy, until such a time as a new, much cheaper, currency could be developed. The immediate impact of this would be significant stress on the Greek economy (not being able to export or import), its banking system (which would almost certainly collapse through lack of funds) and its people (who would have their living standards cut overnight through devaluation). Some economists have indicated it would take about six months for this initial shock to work through the Greek economy before they could tentatively step back into the global economy. This would also cause default, and would cause the issues outlined in the previous section to occur in sync with this.

However, over the medium to long term, this would mean that the Greek economy would have a much greater chance of standing on its own two feet, with policy settings (the currency, interest rates and fiscal policy) that are much better suited to its economic capacity.

Global economic impact
If either or both of these events were to occur, the impact on the global economy would be similar to the Global Financial Crisis – as this is really a financial crisis with economic roots not an economic crisis with financial roots. The transmissions would occur through domestic banking systems, via frozen wholesale funding markets and almost no interbank lending.

The complicating factor this time around is that most central banks have almost no room to move to support their domestic banking systems: they are out of ammunition already. Interest rates in the UK, US and EU are already at or below one per cent, while the balance sheets of these central banks are bloated with government debt. Stepping up to save domestic banking systems for a second time in five years would likely cause significant stresses on the money supply, although this impact would be countered somewhat by increased demand for safe haven currencies like the pound and US dollar.

Governments in major economies are also stretched to their limit, with high debt levels and most remaining mired in deficits as a result of stimulus in the GFC. The scope for further stimulus is therefore quite limited.

Trade finance (ie banks lending to shipping companies that transport cargo around the world) would also be affected, as banks who deal in this area work to bolster their own balance sheets so they can survive the shock. This would see international trade flows impacted severely as they were in the first few months following the collapse of Lehman Brothers. There would also no doubt be confidence effects, with consumers and businesses “battening down the hatches”, which would spill over into economic activity.

In essence, the impact on the global economy would be very similar to the GFC, although the scale is not known at the moment due to the unique circumstances we now find ourselves in.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 07:45:26 PM »
In my personal view, I have long changed my view on completely free globalization. I think many of the woes we're seeing is because markets across the world get ever more intertwined. The result being that a shock to a small element results to everybody toppling over.
In any system engineering discipline, localization of concerns is a guiding principle for exactly that reason. I frankly think de-globalization is the true answers to these issues.

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Offline Riceball

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 08:06:03 PM »
I think engineering will be the next "thing" to pervade economics as a discipline. We've had maths (fail) and psychology (failish, too early to tell) - engineering makes sense as the next one. For the reasons you've touched on.

I'm still well entrenched in the view that globalisation is an overwhelmingly good force, but I do agree that the "web" is getting a bit too intertwined for everyones good. Problem is, how do you first untangle it and then stop it from becoming tangled again?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 09:03:29 PM »
Yeah, gotta say I'm still a proponent of globalization. I think the benefits are great enough to not want to do away with it. I'm with Riceball, we just need to come up with better mechanisms to manage the different threads so it doesn't become a mess. Or perhaps it can be done by re-emphasizing the different levels of divide between local area economics, state-level, global-level, etc.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 12:07:01 PM »
What we need is to be united by a common enemy and war.  We obviously need to be attacked by aliens.
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 01:08:12 PM »
Meaning Germany.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 01:25:49 PM »
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2012, 03:18:53 PM »
What we need is to be united by a common enemy and war.  We obviously need to be attacked by aliens.

Well thanks, now I have to listen to Spiritechnolgoy.

Offline ariich

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 12:36:22 AM »
What's wrong with being anti-austerity?
Greece literally doesn't have money. If it doesn't cut spending, it is entirely reliant on banks lending. If it refuses to cut back, banks will also stop lending because there's no way they'll get their money back.

Anti-austerity in the current climate and especially in Greece is a recipe for disaster.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2012, 10:56:28 AM »
Obviously Greek needs to cut back on it's programs a decent amount, but if all you do is cut back and not stimulate growth, you're not going to get anywhere. If all you do is make austerity cuts, than you'll have poorer and poorer people who cant' pay taxes, meaning you'll just end up making the problem worse.

Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2012, 03:05:09 PM »
Well, that's certainly true. The other side of course is that I think it's pretty understandable too that Germany and other countries don't feel like pumping their money into a sinkhole. Greece has received enormous amounts of money already, but most of it disappeared in dubious channels, and barely any of the agreed-upon reforms have been implemented. Meaning, Greece is essentially doing business-as-usual while receiving money. In reality, Greece is a second-world country in a first-world framework.
Thing is also, Germany has spent the last 20 years propping up another region that collapsed under mismanagement, former East Germany, with a constant flow of money to that region. While that was easy to justify (it's your own people), propping up yet another country is not exactly the reward one imagine for being fiscally responsible.

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Offline snapple

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2012, 03:05:57 PM »
10k on Germany. They've beaten the shit out of France so many times it's not even funny.

Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2012, 03:06:58 PM »
10k on Germany. They've beaten the shit out of France so many times it's not even funny.

o_O?

What about Napoleon?

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Offline snapple

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2012, 03:08:51 PM »
10k on Germany. They've beaten the shit out of France so many times it's not even funny.

o_O?

What about Napoleon?

rumborak

1 time? Oh please. At least use the 20th century. Plus, he was from Corsica.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 03:49:30 PM »
Well, that's certainly true. The other side of course is that I think it's pretty understandable too that Germany and other countries don't feel like pumping their money into a sinkhole. Greece has received enormous amounts of money already, but most of it disappeared in dubious channels, and barely any of the agreed-upon reforms have been implemented. Meaning, Greece is essentially doing business-as-usual while receiving money. In reality, Greece is a second-world country in a first-world framework.
Thing is also, Germany has spent the last 20 years propping up another region that collapsed under mismanagement, former East Germany, with a constant flow of money to that region. While that was easy to justify (it's your own people), propping up yet another country is not exactly the reward one imagine for being fiscally responsible.

rumborak


Then you just had better accept the consequences. What I'm saying goes beyond just Greece, however, as most of Europe went the austerity route after the financial crisis. It was the wrong route to go, and it made matters worse. There might be deeper, underlying problems, but the fact of the matter is, austerity will not get you out of an economic slump anytime quickly.

What's better... a factitious, divided Europe, or one that sacrifices for each other? I'd argue the former will just eventually lead to War - its extremely shortsighted to think that somehow Europe has grown beyond War, it's simply numbed itelf after WWI and WWII. The more you economically and financially make yourself dependent upon the other countries, the less likely aggressive is, because that aggressive would just harm yourself as well.

Short-term thinking via austerity and not wanting to divy up some money leads to long-term problems.

Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2012, 04:46:55 PM »
I find any talk about a WW3 rather hyperbolic and not particularly useful in this thread. I actually had to scroll to the left (viewing this on my phone) to check it wasn't written by Andy. (sorry)

I agree that just austerity doesn't work. But it would be a lot easier to justify more money injections if one didn't have to read about rampant corruption and lack of reform implementation in Greece all the time. And in fact the leader of the most left faction in Greece is now visiting German leftist parties with the overt program of "we want more money but will implement reforms some later time."

rumborak
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 04:53:47 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2012, 05:56:46 PM »
I find any talk about a WW3 rather hyperbolic and not particularly useful in this thread. I actually had to scroll to the left (viewing this on my phone) to check it wasn't written by Andy. (sorry)

rumborak
[/quote]

I never, ever, ever, ever said anything about WWIII, so I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. I merely mentioned it's a little silly to think that war has disappeared from Europe simply becuase there's been a lull after two major wars, that killed and numbed the population. Do you honestly think human's have changed that much since the 1910's-40's? I'm not saying war's going to break out tomorrow, or even next year, or even the next decade. But 40 years from now? It'd be extremely arrogant to say you know war won't come about.

Is there really no EU mechanism to force changes and reforms? What I think this crisis reveals more is the complete lack of intelligence in the planning and operation of the EU.

Offline Riceball

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2012, 07:09:38 PM »
There was supposed to be mechanisms that were a set of 'rules' for Euro membership, but everyone lied about them. Things like their debt levels (which were supposed to be capped at 60% of GDP) and deficits (capped at 3% of GDP). In fact, Germany and France were the first to shirk these rules in the early 00s I think.

Ofcourse, Greece completely fudged their books; they said they were running deficits of around 2% of GDP when it was more like 10%.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2012, 10:23:45 PM »
The difference being that Germany's shortcoming was widely known to everyone, whereas Greece's were covered up by them for a decade.

rumborak
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Offline ariich

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 12:36:24 AM »
I don't understand the disagreement with austerity. Countries were (and most still are) spending more than they earn in taxes. This means they have net debt, and huge net debt at that. If by austerity we mean spending less than we were previously, then that's absolutely necessary right now, because we were spending far too much before.

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Offline AndyDT

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2012, 08:55:09 AM »
I can't believe the UK once tied its interest rates to the DM in the Exchange Rate Mechanism. The whole thing seems crazy now.

Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2012, 10:47:31 AM »
Is there any reason to your notion, or just the usual hate?

rumborak
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Offline Ħ

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2012, 11:03:33 AM »
I don't see any poll options. ???
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Offline AndyDT

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2012, 03:37:33 PM »
Is there any reason to your notion, or just the usual hate?

rumborak
I don't understand your question.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2012, 06:05:06 PM »
The difference being that Germany's shortcoming was widely known to everyone, whereas Greece's were covered up by them for a decade.

rumborak

Yes, but what do you do now? It almost doesn't matter how you got here, because the solutions to get out are going to be the same regardless. 

And my point would be, why wasn't there any outside sources looking at nations budgets, making sure they followed the rules? I can't imagine a careful inspection of Greeces books wouldn't have revealed the cover-up.

Offline rumborak

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2012, 09:03:30 PM »
That is the real problem under all this. There was too much sovereignty for countries, essentially the assumption was that every country would abide by the honor system.

rumborak
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Offline AndyDT

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Re: France vs. Germany
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2012, 06:05:17 AM »
It seems the German constitutional court doesn't want fiscal matters dictated by other countries:

https://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16234188

Neither is it reasonable to my mind to be tied to another country like the UK was when in the ERM.