McDonald's Cashier beatdown

[El Barto]

I'm putting this in P/R because I've got a pretty good idea the direction this is going to take.

https://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-bloody-greenwich-village-mcdonalds-fight,0,2988734.story
(NSFW the video is loud and full of profanity)

The argument began around 12:30 a.m. when the cashier, Rayon McIntosh, 31, told the two women -- Denise Darbeau, 24, of Queens, and Rachel Edwards, 24, of Brooklyn -- that he would have to scan their $50 bill before getting their food, according to DNAinfo.com.

Edwards and Darbeau can be heard in the video swearing at McIntosh and saying, "Do something, p***y." Then Darbeau escalates the situation by lunging forward and slapping the cashier across the face. McIntosh dives forward to retaliate, and pushes the woman before backing into the restaurant.

Darbeau then jumps over the counter while Edwards walks around the side to confront McIntosh, who reaches out of the frame and grabs a metal rod. Gripping the rod in both hands, McIntosh can then be seen winding up and striking both women repeatedly while they fall to the ground.

Patrons can be heard screaming, with one horrified woman yelling, "Stop it! Stop! Stop! Oh my God," as the repeated impact of the pipe can be heard in the background. One woman suffered a fractured skull and a broken arm; the other a deep cut on the head, according to reports.

I'm a little hazy on why this is felony assault on the cashier's part, and not self defense.  I'm not entirely sure whether or not the castle doctrine applies to the work place or not,  and I doubt it even exists at all in NY,  but either way I suspect that had this happened down here in Tejas he would have been within his right to exercise deadly force.  Kind of seems to me that Johnny should have given him an Attaboy, rather than a ride downtown. 

And why aren't the girls being charged with felonies?  Since there are plenty of New Yorkers 'round these parts,  I figure some of y'all have more info on this than I do. 

[73109]

It's pretty sad that the two women are not being charged with anything. However, what the worker did was ultimately wrong. I'm all for self defense, but he should have just backed away after being slapped, and had the two women thrown out.

[Perpetual Change]

It's pretty sad that the two women are not being charged with anything. However, what the worker did was ultimately wrong. I'm all for self defense, but she should have just backed away after being slapped, and had the two women thrown out.

Yeah. Self-defense is one thing. But that worker looked like he definitely went a bit too far. His co-workers were telling him to stop because after he clearly wasn't in danger any more he continued to beat the woman on the floor and was being belligerent with the other lady behind the counter yelling "stop." His repeatedly yelling "fuck yall" to the coworkers trying to stop him almost makes it sound like he thinks he deserves to beat the woman within an inch of her life because she got aggressive against him.

Seems like there's blame to go around. I wouldn't necessarily be patting anyone's back here. The fact the cashier is a convicted killer does not help things, either.

[73109]

Ignore the stupidity.

[BlobVanDam]

The cashier had every right to defend himself in the situation, since they were coming at him physically, but to me there is a point where you overstep the line of self defense, to just violence.

The cashier clearly took many more hits than was necessary to merely incapacitate the women and stop the attack, and that's where the line is for me. When he came back to hit more times, it was out of rage, and not self defense anymore.

[Perpetual Change]

As an aside: it's times like these that gun-control laws make me happy.

[El Barto]

We have no way of knowing at what point (if at all) the girls were subdued. 

What the co-workers or the white, female customer were shouting doesn't matter either.  Hell,  Cole is suggesting that he should have run and hid.

The cashier's criminal history is irrelevant in ascertaining the facts in this case.

[73109]

Cole is suggesting that he should have run and hid.

Yes I am.

[Perpetual Change]

OK, what I see in the video:

1.) Customer getting belligerent
2.) Cashier running to the back
3.) Customers coming after him
4.) Cashier reappearing with led pipe, hitting one of the girls down
5.) Cashier hitting girl on the floor repeatedly
6.) Coworkers urging him to stop
7.) Cashier telling them to fuck off and taking a couple swings at the girl on the floor while now even customers are urging him to stop.

That's enough to say he went over the line, in my opinion. He should have stopped after 4, but I'd even say that if he'd stopped at 6 it'd be OK.

That fact he's been convicting of unintentionally killing people before is just a bonus. 

[Nigerius Rex]

Unfortunately, you cannot determine if he went too far without seeing the women on the other side of the counter, and neither could about 95% of the witnesses there.

[El Barto]

OK, what I see in the video:

1.) Customer getting belligerent
2.) Cashier running to the back
3.) Customers coming after him
4.) Cashier reappearing with led pipe, hitting one of the girls down
5.) Cashier hitting girl on the floor repeatedly
6.) Coworkers urging him to stop
7.) Cashier telling them to fuck off and taking a couple swings at the girl on the floor while now even customers are urging him to stop.

That's enough to say he went over the line, in my opinion. He should have stopped after 4, but I'd even say that if he'd stopped at 6 it'd be OK.

That fact he's been convicting of unintentionally killing people before is just a bonus.

You left out a crucial point:

1.5) customer assaults cashier

And again,  the cashier's history doesn't matter at all here.  He could have been the Green River Killer, but that wouldn't effect his culpability here one way or the other.

[Perpetual Change]

I didn't leave out that part at all.

I really don't see what you're taking issue with here. I'm going by what I see on the video, which is all can be expected of me. I think the guy beat the girl too much, from what I can tell. The right to self-defense does not equal the right to bludgeon someone on the ground to death.

[BlobVanDam]

OK, what I see in the video:

1.) Customer getting belligerent
2.) Cashier running to the back
3.) Customers coming after him
4.) Cashier reappearing with led pipe, hitting one of the girls down
5.) Cashier hitting girl on the floor repeatedly
6.) Coworkers urging him to stop
7.) Cashier telling them to fuck off and taking a couple swings at the girl on the floor while now even customers are urging him to stop.

That's enough to say he went over the line, in my opinion. He should have stopped after 4, but I'd even say that if he'd stopped at 6 it'd be OK.

That fact he's been convicting of unintentionally killing people before is just a bonus. 

I agree with this.
Based on the video, it seemed to me he went well over the line, and this was before I found out anything about his criminal record, so that didn't factor into my opinion of this. But his history doesn't surprise me given how he snapped here.

Granted, we didn't see the women after they were knocked down, so we don't know for a fact what state they were in, but the long delay between hitting them again says to me they were already down and out and further hits were not needed.

[yeshaberto]

Very sobering video.    It is obvious he went too far but equally obvious that the customers should be charged

[antigoon]

I'm pretty sure the cashier is only allowed to use force in direct defense of the assault by the women. This seems like brutal retaliation.

[El Barto]

The right to self-defense does not equal the right to bludgeon someone on the ground to death.

The right to self-defense does equal the right to do what's necessary to stop the assault.  We couldn't see the women behind the counter,  but the reports say that he struck them any time they tried to get up.  If they had been unconscious, then I'd agree with you.  If he felt they still posed a threat,  then I have no problem with him keeping them on the ground.

If you're not familiar with it,  you might read up on FederalExpress Flight 705.  It's a fine example of how much fight people with skull fractures can still put up.  (it's also a flat-out awesome story of heroism and professionalism)
edit:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqnznVzYKk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL83A87070C74A029D

[millahh]

A few thoughts from a NYer:

-The girls are getting multiple charges, and they seem appropriate for what happened.  "Edwards and Darbeau face charges of menacing, trespassing and disorderly conduct".  No quite sure that what they did rises to the level of a felony.

-The guy probably would have been ok if he stopped and called 911 after the initial couple of swings with the pipe, which were legitimately self-defense.  But he kept at it after the threat had been neutralized, which is a no-no anywhere.  I wonder at what point one of the other employees called 911.

-As far as I know, there's no king-of-the-castle law in NY, and even if there were, I have a hard time imagining it would apply to a cashier working in a semi-public place like a McDonald's. But I do know that the proprietor at my tattoo parlor of choice (in the East Village) keeps a baseball bat behind the counter, and while it hasn't actually made contact with a would-be assailant/robber, it was in his hand when he threw one of the guys through the front window of the shop...and the cops weren't bothered by it...they only had tips for him on how to better delay the guys until the cops got there (they got away, despite one of them leaving a blood trail).

-I'm very glad that NY has tight gun laws, or this could have been worse.

[BlobVanDam]

The right to self-defense does not equal the right to bludgeon someone on the ground to death.

The right to self-defense does equal the right to do what's necessary to stop the assault.  We couldn't see the women behind the counter,  but the reports say that he struck them any time they tried to get up.  If they had been unconscious, then I'd agree with you.  If he felt they still posed a threat,  then I have no problem with him keeping them on the ground.

Without seeing the women on the ground, it's impossible to say what level of threat they posed, but even being "conscious", I can't imagine they posed a legitimate threat at that point. Just because they were moving to some degree, doesn't mean they were a threat and deserved to be hit again. Maybe if he was alone and they were of considerably greater strength than him, then yes, but he had enough people around and aware of the situation that I don't think they were in a state to threaten him further.

But we're all basing our opinions on our own extrapolation of the facts here, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that based on how I read the situation, I don't believe they were anywhere near enough of a threat to warrant further hits of that magnitude. They had only just started to move again, and he struck them with the same full force that he used to initially floor them. To me that doesn't work out.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

1)  Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'.
2)  He should've stopped after a few shots.
3)  Charge those bitches.

[73109]

Am I the only one that thinks that fighting back in any shape or form is a no-no. What the hell is the woman going to do? She slaps you, and then you back away and call the cops. It doesn't seem that hard.

[Sigz]

Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.

[Jamesman42]

Am I the only one that thinks that fighting back in any shape or form is a no-no. What the hell is the woman going to do? She slaps you, and then you back away and call the cops. It doesn't seem that hard.

lol

[73109]

Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.

Of course they are, but in this situation, if the cashier would have backed off and went to call the cops it would have become a resturant (about 20 people I'd be willing to guess) vs. 2 people. Who's gonna win that one?

[Progmetty]

-I'm very glad that NY has tight gun laws, or this could have been worse.

Oh for sure. If this happened in Texas it would have ended like the basement bar scene from Inglourious Basterds.
I think the worse thing that should happen to the cashier is getting fired for not controlling his temper and maybe sent to an Anger Management thing. I'd find it unjust if that guy went to jail even if the bitches die.
You gotta put yourself in his shoe, from my observation in the U.S there's no employees more stressed and depressed than the McDonalds ones, well second only to WalMart. With the minimum wages and the long hours, etc. These bitches could have possibly broken the last straw by behaving in such shitty manner. They started the swearing, one of them slapped him across the counter, can you imagine how it feels like to be slapped on the face? let alone in public? I know it's wrong but watching the part where he wouldn't stop beating on them I just kept thinking "Yes, yes". Kinda like that bully video we saw a few month back when the fat kid slammed the living concrete out of the skinny kid who was bullying him. He didn't have to go that far, that could have broken the kid's neck but the blinding anger of humiliation is an excuse that should be taken into consideration, only when you have such decisive video evidence of how the events took place..
I don't blame the guy but I know he's done wrong by not controlling his anger when it clearly seemed that he's done enough damage.

[Perpetual Change]

A few thoughts from a NYer:

-The girls are getting multiple charges, and they seem appropriate for what happened.  "Edwards and Darbeau face charges of menacing, trespassing and disorderly conduct".  No quite sure that what they did rises to the level of a felony.

Looks like this is all much ado about nothing, then.

-The guy probably would have been ok if he stopped and called 911 after the initial couple of swings with the pipe, which were legitimately self-defense.  But he kept at it after the threat had been neutralized, which is a no-no anywhere.  I wonder at what point one of the other employees called 911.

-I'm very glad that NY has tight gun laws, or this could have been worse.

Agree completely with both of these points.

[Orbert]

Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.

Of course they are, but in this situation, if the cashier would have backed off and went to call the cops it would have become a resturant (about 20 people I'd be willing to guess) vs. 2 people. Who's gonna win that one?

Or they just would've left when he went to call the cops.  No one would have detained them; it would be in no one's self-interest to intervene.  So by time the cops showed up, the women would've been long gone, and the cashier would be left with a slap in the face, some paperwork to fill out, and an overall crappy day at work.  The women would've been guilty of assault but gotten away with it.

[73109]

Better outcome than what just happened, I would think. I'd take a crappy day at work rather than possible jail time any day of the week.

[El Barto]

But we're all basing our opinions on our own extrapolation of the facts here, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that based on how I read the situation, I don't believe they were anywhere near enough of a threat to warrant further hits of that magnitude. They had only just started to move again, and he struck them with the same full force that he used to initially floor them. To me that doesn't work out.

And I somewhat agree with you.  We're basing our opinions on what we've seen, and what we've seen doesn't tell us whether or not the girls still posed a threat.  IMO, they might well have.  If we ever see the surveillance video,  and it shows the girls in a defensive or helpless posture,  then I'll change my opinion.  As it stands right now,  my benefit of the doubt goes to the person who was initially attacked, and not the girls who started the altercation.

Consider as well that the cooking area of a McDonalds is a terrible place to fight off two assailants (to continue Metty's analogy,  "You know, fightin' in a basement offers a lot of difficulties. Number one being, you're fightin' in a basement!") 

A few thoughts from a NYer:

-The girls are getting multiple charges, and they seem appropriate for what happened.  "Edwards and Darbeau face charges of menacing, trespassing and disorderly conduct".  No quite sure that what they did rises to the level of a felony.

Gotta disagree with you on this, Doc.  Whether or not it rises to the felony level I'm not sure,  but there definitely need to be some assault charges in there.  Also,  I'm not sure how New York differentiates degrees of trespass,  but these girls were trespassing with the intent to commit assault.  That might be felony territory.

Nope, women aren't capable of inflicting physical harm on someone.

Of course they are, but in this situation, if the cashier would have backed off and went to call the cops it would have become a resturant (about 20 people I'd be willing to guess) vs. 2 people. Who's gonna win that one?

Never, ever assume that others will be willing to assist.  On the same page as that video is another video of a teenage girl getting beaten severely for several minutes in a crowded McDonalds while the entire restaurant watches.  The only person willing to intervene was a 70 year old woman.  Furthermore,  until things turn ugly,  you really have no idea if this girl was just some stupid chick who can't throw a real punch, or the world's seventh ranked practitioner of Jeet Kune Do.  That guy was under no legal or moral obligation to find out before defending himself.

[Jamesman42]

^Bart makes a good point. How exactly do you know if the girl isn't trained in some sort of martial arts? She may have slapped initially, but she could very well start throwing in some crazy shit on the guy. Better to take a preemptive strike than find out.

[Zook]

Is the new fad fighting in McDonald's restaurants?

[Orbert]

Better outcome than what just happened, I would think. I'd take a crappy day at work rather than possible jail time any day of the week.

True, but there is a middle ground.  He may have taken it too far, but are you saying he shouldn't have done anything and just let them slap him around?  What about after she got behind the counter, obviously intending to do more damage?  Do you still walk away, confident that you're doing the right thing, as she grabs you from behind, throws you down and kicks your ass?

[Jamesman42]

Is the new fad fighting in McDonald's restaurants?

From Planking to Coning to McViolence

[El Barto]

Better outcome than what just happened, I would think. I'd take a crappy day at work rather than possible jail time any day of the week.

True, but there is a middle ground.  He may have taken it too far, but are you saying he shouldn't have done anything and just let them slap him around?  What about after she got behind the counter, obviously intending to do more damage?  Do you still walk away, confident that you're doing the right thing, as she grabs you from behind, throws you down and kicks your ass?

Me and my fellow Texan might be the only ones to defend the cashier,  but I think we can all agree that Cole's just wrong.   

[Progmetty]

I defended the cashier too but Cole's angle is legit for some personalities imo. I can never see myself resorting to violence in any given scenario either but actually watching the video made me put myself in the cashier's place and understand the rage. If this was just a written article telling me of the story I probably would have been more neutral.

[73109]

I just don't think violence is the answer. Better have her get away and not resort to her stupid level than resort...and go past...what she did.

I'm just a dang hippie.