Obama is not a good speaker and doesn't seem that intellegent

[kirksnosehair]

His books weren't "output" then?

Millions sold.  He produced it. 

[wasteland]

One of the many things I can't still figure out about politics in the US is how most of you seem to think that business men should as such be more skilled and more trustworthy when it comes to the government of your country. To me (and I live in a coutry that has been run by a businessman for the last 17 years, though my opinions on the matter are only loosly relaed to this fact) it's almost the exact opposite.

[Gadough]

OP, I agree with you. I've never thought Obama was a good speaker. Even back when he was campaigning, I wondered what the fuss was all about. He never seemed very eloquent to me.

[kirksnosehair]

One of the many things I can't still figure out about politics in the US is how most of you seem to think that business men should as such be more skilled and more trustworthy when it comes to the government of your country. To me (and I live in a coutry that has been run by a businessman for the last 17 years, though my opinions on the matter are only loosly relaed to this fact) it's almost the exact opposite.

I think you will find that to be true more about conservatives (typically Republicans) than liberals (typically Democrats)

For example, George W. Bush was a business man before being elected to public office, but as a businessman he was an abject failure.

edited because the fonts here kind of suck

[GuineaPig]

From a Canadian perspective, Paul Martin, one of Canada's most successful and well-respected fiscal conservatives, was a businessman before taking public office.  He was the engineer of Canada's successful balancing of its budget during the '90s, and was largely responsible for the paying off of much of Canada's debt that had threatened the economic stability of the country.  I can see why having a background in business might be very useful to the United States in this economic climate.

Of course, Republicans would consider him a socialist.

[TL]

We need more job creators like business man Mitt Romney (who made a large chunk of his money buying companies, firing everyone, and gutting as much money as he could from the company before throwing away the remains).

But seriously, the OP is either a brilliant troll, or a perfect example of one of the biggest problems in modern American society. The fact that there are a considerable number of people in the US who view intelligence and academia as negative things is beyond troubling.

From a Canadian perspective, Paul Martin, one of Canada's most successful and well-respected fiscal conservatives, was a businessman before taking public office.  He was the engineer of Canada's successful balancing of its budget during the '90s, and was largely responsible for the paying off of much of Canada's debt that had threatened the economic stability of the country.  I can see why having a background in business might be very useful to the United States in this economic climate.

Of course, Republicans would consider him a socialist.

Not to mention implementing certain policies that would later allow Canada to emerge from the 2008 economic crisis with one of the strongest banking sectors in the world. It turns out that regulation that American conservatives seem to hate so much can actually be a really, really good thing sometimes (or really, a lot of the time).

[Super Dude]

We need more job creators like business man Mitt Romney (who made a large chunk of his money buying companies, firing everyone, and gutting as much money as he could from the company before throwing away the remains).

But seriously, the OP is either a brilliant troll, or a perfect example of one of the biggest problems in modern American society. The fact that there are a considerable number of people in the US who view intelligence and academia as negative things is beyond troubling.

Given the large number of similar posters here (i.e. PraXis) and other forums I frequent, I sadly am beginning to think it's the latter.

[antigoon]

Dream Theater...attracting loonies since 1980-whatever

[El Barto]

But seriously, the OP is either a brilliant troll, or a perfect example of one of the biggest problems in modern American society. The fact that there are a considerable number of people in the US who view intelligence and academia as negative things is beyond troubling.

The world's full of people who look down on intelligence; remember high school?  The neo-cons certainly popularized it, particularly with their disdain for history.  Remember that one of Dumbass's biggest selling points was his simplicity.  They made Gore,  who for all his faults is not a dumb man,  look silly as hell and used his intelligence against him.  Most upsetting, frankly.

Now having said that,  I don't completely disagree with the OP.  He's kind of all over the place, and compared to Bush, Obama is Daniel Freaking Webster,  but there is something to be said about various styles of intelligence.  As much as I rag on Chimpy,  he wasn't altogether stupid.  I'd actually be kind of curious to see an IQ score from the guy.  I think we'd probably be surprised.  Now he was embarrassingly devoid of knowledge, and couldn't form proper sentences to save his life.  He tended to act on gut instinct, which frequently served him poorly.  He allowed himself to be manipulated by everybody around him.  It goes on and on, and all of these things amount to a characterization that I'm happy to throw around.  Still,  I suspect the man probably has some halfway decent cognitive skills, gathering dust,  lost in that monkey head of his. 

Obama is a different breed of animal.  He's very well educated, and seems to have an interest in understanding the details; an admirable quality.  Still,  I haven't seen anything from the guy that leads me to believe he's putting any of his book smarts to good use.  I suppose it might come down to a trade-off between academic knowledge and just plain ole common sense;  a different kind of intelligence.  Can't honestly say that I've seen much of that from Barry. 

[73109]

After reading most of this thread, I'm just shocked that people think running a government like a business would work. I'd much rather have a law theorist as a president than a businessman.

[Super Dude]

But seriously, the OP is either a brilliant troll, or a perfect example of one of the biggest problems in modern American society. The fact that there are a considerable number of people in the US who view intelligence and academia as negative things is beyond troubling.

The world's full of people who look down on intelligence; remember high school?  The neo-cons certainly popularized it, particularly with their disdain for history.  Remember that one of Dumbass's biggest selling points was his simplicity.  They made Gore,  who for all his faults is not a dumb man,  look silly as hell and used his intelligence against him.  Most upsetting, frankly.

Now having said that,  I don't completely disagree with the OP.  He's kind of all over the place, and compared to Bush, Obama is Daniel Freaking Webster,  but there is something to be said about various styles of intelligence.  As much as I rag on Chimpy,  he wasn't altogether stupid.  I'd actually be kind of curious to see an IQ score from the guy.  I think we'd probably be surprised.  Now he was embarrassingly devoid of knowledge, and couldn't form proper sentences to save his life.  He tended to act on gut instinct, which frequently served him poorly.  He allowed himself to be manipulated by everybody around him.  It goes on and on, and all of these things amount to a characterization that I'm happy to throw around.  Still,  I suspect the man probably has some halfway decent cognitive skills, gathering dust,  lost in that monkey head of his. 

Obama is a different breed of animal.  He's very well educated, and seems to have an interest in understanding the details; an admirable quality.  Still, I haven't seen anything from the guy that leads me to believe he's putting any of his book smarts to good use.  I suppose it might come down to a trade-off between academic knowledge and just plain ole common sense;  a different kind of intelligence.  Can't honestly say that I've seen much of that from Barry.

The conclusion I've come to recently is that nowhere is it truer than in presidency that there's a huge difference between knowing it in theory, and being able to do it in practice. I have studied international relations and the realist, zero-sum game for my entire college career and can make a claim to knowing how it works really well. Could I be a head of state and play the game itself? Hell no, and I will never sign myself up, not in a hundred years. So it might be with Obama.

That said, I have hope for him. His first term has been quite crap but I think that's exactly the point; in his second term, he won't have to worry about pleasing anyone and all the pressures of his first term will thus be drastically downscaled.

[livehard]

Im not trolling im saying that he hasnt spent a day working j. The real world.  He's a perfe t example of an academic sitting on a pedistool while pontificating on how the world should work.

I am calling BS on him being a community organizer.  That sounds like a pathetic acorn-like job, and i wouldnt be suprised if it was through governmnet funding.

I wan people who worked in the real world because i think a guy like obama is so far removed from reality that he actually believes the crap coming out of his mouth

[Perpetual Change]

Livehard;

"Elites who've never worked a real job, are completely removed from reality, actually believe the crap coming out of their mouths", etc. I'd guess you just described like 50 percent of the founding fathers.

[El Barto]

Im not trolling im saying that he hasnt spent a day working j. The real world.  He's a perfe t example of an academic sitting on a pedistool while pontificating on how the world should work.

I am calling BS on him being a community organizer.  That sounds like a pathetic acorn-like job, and i wouldnt be suprised if it was through governmnet funding.

I wan people who worked in the real world because i think a guy like obama is so far removed from reality that he actually believes the crap coming out of his mouth

So you're a drinking man, are ya.   

As I said earlier,  I think you're basing your criticism of the guy on the fact that he thinks differently than you, and in an area where you feel smugly superior.  In reality,  it's an area that's complicated enough that real, honest to God experts still haven't figured it out. 

One of the things to keep in mind is that there are an awful lot of qualities required to be an effective POTUS.  Intelligence is certainly one of them but it's not the be all/end all.  It's just another in a [hopefully] large skill set. 

Obama's a pretty crappy president,  but all other things being equal,  I honestly prefer a crappy smart guy to a crappy moron.

[MasterShakezula]

Out of curiosity, I would like to hear you guys' say on whether or not you believe Obama will be elected, depending on the Repub nominee who makes it to the candidacy.

Like, would you say that Obama has a lower chance of winning against Mitt Romney, as opposed to Perry or Bachmann, or even Paul?

I think it'd be interesting to see if we have a consensus on which nominee would be the most challenging opponent. 

I mean, I'd rather Obama win, but still, it'd be kinda interesting to see.

[Super Dude]

I mean at this point there's no sense in putting him up against Paul, Bachmann, or Perry; they're outta the running AFAIC. Bachmann has long since lost steam, and all the stuff coming out about Perry the last couple weeks will take him out too.

[El Barto]

Out of curiosity, I would like to hear you guys' say on whether or not you believe Obama will be elected, depending on the Repub nominee who makes it to the candidacy.

Like, would you say that Obama has a lower chance of winning against Mitt Romney, as opposed to Perry or Bachmann, or even Paul?

I think it'd be interesting to see if we have a consensus on which nominee would be the most challenging opponent. 

I mean, I'd rather Obama win, but still, it'd be kinda interesting to see.

Romney might be able to beat him, but I doubt he'll get the nomination and it'd be a close race regardless.  Obama will beat any of the other people the GOP wants to throw out there. 

[rumborak]

Two pages into this thread, and nobody commented on "intellegent"? Mind = blown.

rumborak

[Perpetual Change]

lol

There's a lot wrong with the original post, but this isn't 5/8, so I was trying to judge strictly based on content.

[hefdaddy42]

Im not trolling im saying that he hasnt spent a day working j. The real world.  He's a perfe t example of an academic sitting on a pedistool while pontificating on how the world should work.

I am calling BS on him being a community organizer.  That sounds like a pathetic acorn-like job, and i wouldnt be suprised if it was through governmnet funding.

I wan people who worked in the real world because i think a guy like obama is so far removed from reality that he actually believes the crap coming out of his mouth

So I guess someone who has been a career military officer, such as a five-star general, would also not be a good candidate for president, correct?

[ThroughHerEyesDude6]

I am honest to God confused on what the OP considers a hard days work in the real world.

[MasterShakezula]

Probably an executive position in a large business?

[GuineaPig]

Im not trolling im saying that he hasnt spent a day working j. The real world.  He's a perfe t example of an academic sitting on a pedistool while pontificating on how the world should work.

I am calling BS on him being a community organizer.  That sounds like a pathetic acorn-like job, and i wouldnt be suprised if it was through governmnet funding.

I wan people who worked in the real world because i think a guy like obama is so far removed from reality that he actually believes the crap coming out of his mouth

Sounds like George Washington.  He never worked a day in his life except for the government.  And how is leading armies supposed to make you a good leader?

What a terrible president.

[Super Dude]

Out of curiosity, I would like to hear you guys' say on whether or not you believe Obama will be elected, depending on the Repub nominee who makes it to the candidacy.

Like, would you say that Obama has a lower chance of winning against Mitt Romney, as opposed to Perry or Bachmann, or even Paul?

I think it'd be interesting to see if we have a consensus on which nominee would be the most challenging opponent. 

I mean, I'd rather Obama win, but still, it'd be kinda interesting to see.

Romney might be able to beat him, but I doubt he'll get the nomination and it'd be a close race regardless.  Obama will beat any of the other people the GOP wants to throw out there.

Alright well fasten your seatbelts, because I'm beginning to think he'll be getting the nomination.

[kirksnosehair]

Out of curiosity, I would like to hear you guys' say on whether or not you believe Obama will be elected, depending on the Repub nominee who makes it to the candidacy.

Like, would you say that Obama has a lower chance of winning against Mitt Romney, as opposed to Perry or Bachmann, or even Paul?

I think it'd be interesting to see if we have a consensus on which nominee would be the most challenging opponent. 

I mean, I'd rather Obama win, but still, it'd be kinda interesting to see.

Obama will very likely not be re-elected, largely due to the condition of the economy.  I think it's worth noting as well, despite the right wing talking points nonsense that is sure to follow this post, that it is unlikely in the extreme that the economy would be measurably different today if McCain had been elected.

The problem here is one of perception.  The perception is, and always has been (right, wrong or indifferent) that the current Chief Executive takes the hit for the economic conditions in the country.

Now, personally, I am not very happy with the Obama presidency.  I'm a liberal Democrat.  I voted for him and I'll vote for him again, but from my POV, his presidency has been very successfully scuttled by a unified opposition party that has gone, and will continue to go out of its way to deny this president any form of legislative victory.  Republicans are now voting against ideas THEY previously proposed.

There's a guy who writes for CNN.com, Julian Zelizer, and I find his commentaries to be very insightful and he does a terrific job of remaining largely above the partisan divide.  He wrote, recently that:

Gridlock benefits Republicans and, more broadly, conservative politics, for several reasons.

Click the link above if you want to read the whole thing.  It makes a lot of sense.  And it explains why nothing is really getting done now that the House is controlled by Republicans.  They don't want anything to get done because it will help this president.  Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has stated unequivocally that defeating Obama in 2012 is the # priority for Republicans.

But don't take my word for it.

On Fox News Sunday Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) maintained that the Republicans’ number one goal remains the defeat of President Obama in 2012.  In an interview with Bret Baier of Fox News, McConnell was asked about a charge made by Democrats that the Republicans are purposefully sabotaging the economy for political gain in 2012.  McConnell at first seemed to admit the charge, saying “Well that’s true” before going on to claim that Republicans want to fix the economy first.

Source

This is the system we have now.  A bastardized version of what the framers really intended, and for all of the blather and bluster you hear from the current crop of Republican candidates about "The Constitution" none of them seem to give a rat's ass about the fact that they have now resorted to filibustering any and all legislation brought to the floor by Democrats for the sole purpose of maintaining the status quo so that nothing will improve, which, obviously, hurts the incumbent President.

The thing I am concerned about the most is the supreme court.  It's already far enough to the right.  Too far, really.  The Citizens United case makes my point more clearly than I could.  Mitt Romney will appoint another right-winger to the court.  That's bad.  Very bad.

[PraXis]

Obama is a typical academic. He's very book smart and I'm sure he's studied up on all kinds of theories, but when it comes to actually DOING something (i.e. meeting payroll to run a business), he's clueless.

Repeat after me: government is not a business. There are different rules.

Yea, a business is forced to innovate to maintain competitive so it can exist, while complying with arbitrary rules and regulations.

The gov't is a giant blood sucker that can't exist without taking money from the private sector, and it has the power to assassinate American citizens without due process.

Edit: If a business is having trouble with its departments not producing enough or running efficiently, they make cuts and/or shift people around to get it working again... govt? agencies never get replaced or streamlined....they just get bigger and bigger and more into the red, i.e. USPS.

[hefdaddy42]

Good, I'm glad we got that cleared up.

And yeah, this thread makes my brain hurt.

[livehard]

Im not trolling im saying that he hasnt spent a day working j. The real world.  He's a perfe t example of an academic sitting on a pedistool while pontificating on how the world should work.

I am calling BS on him being a community organizer.  That sounds like a pathetic acorn-like job, and i wouldnt be suprised if it was through governmnet funding.

I wan people who worked in the real world because i think a guy like obama is so far removed from reality that he actually believes the crap coming out of his mouth

Sounds like George Washington.  He never worked a day in his life except for the government.  And how is leading armies supposed to make you a good leader?

What a terrible president.

haha I wouldnt exactly say that being a community organizer and the general of the continental army are equatable simply because the paycheck comes from the government.

[GuineaPig]

Im not trolling im saying that he hasnt spent a day working j. The real world.  He's a perfe t example of an academic sitting on a pedistool while pontificating on how the world should work.

I am calling BS on him being a community organizer.  That sounds like a pathetic acorn-like job, and i wouldnt be suprised if it was through governmnet funding.

I wan people who worked in the real world because i think a guy like obama is so far removed from reality that he actually believes the crap coming out of his mouth

Sounds like George Washington.  He never worked a day in his life except for the government.  And how is leading armies supposed to make you a good leader?

What a terrible president.

haha I wouldnt exactly say that being a community organizer and the general of the continental army are equatable simply because the paycheck comes from the government.

But you would say being an actor qualifies you more for the Presidency than being a professor of constitutional law.

[rumborak]

Does this thread have any more depth than "I want the next president to be anything but the current Democratic president"?

rumborak

[kirksnosehair]

Does this thread have any more depth than "I want the next president to be anything but the current Democratic president"?

rumborak

 I tried to make intelligent, well-supported arguments here.  Maybe I failed, though. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The world's full of people who look down on intelligence; remember high school?

I remember all right.  Those people were called "the football team".

In other news, this thread makes my brain hurt also.  Methinks somebody has about 2 or 3 alts on DTF.

[livehard]

Does this thread have any more depth than "I want the next president to be anything but the current Democratic president"?

rumborak

this has nothing to do with him being a democrat.  Especially the bad speaker part.  There are a lot of bad speakers on the republican side.

To go back to that point, I am really suprised when I saw people fainting and crying when he spoke.  I am all for being emotional at times, but how can you really listen to him and be moved by what he says...  To me it makes no sense.

[TL]

Livehard, you're allowed to disagree with the President and the direction he's taking. You're allowed to disagree with and dislike his policies. You obviously have the right to voice opposing views and criticisms. It's a democracy, which thrives on differing points of view.
There's a way to approach this though.

When you just keep harping on meaningless talking points (like the whole community organizer thing), people are just going to tune you out. If you go on about superficial details instead of actual policy you disagree with, no one will take you seriously. Continuing to harp on things like Obama being a community organizer (which actually is a legitimate thing), or not having worked a day in his life when he clearly has, rather than voicing valid policy criticism (and there are many valid criticisms regarding the current administration), you come off as unintelligent, and not worth listening to.

Show us that this isn't true. Bring up some policy positions that you disagree with, and let's have a real, intelligent, mature debate. Even if neither side budges, it will be a much more enriching experience.

[Super Dude]

Does this thread have any more depth than "I want the next president to be anything but the current Democratic president"?

rumborak

 I tried to make intelligent, well-supported arguments here.  Maybe I failed, though. 

If it helps, I agree with your entire spiel, but that's basically like preaching to the choir.

Does this thread have any more depth than "I want the next president to be anything but the current Democratic president"?

rumborak

this has nothing to do with him being a democrat.  Especially the bad speaker part.  There are a lot of bad speakers on the republican side.

Ah, the "I'm not racist, I have a lot of friends who are [race]" argument.