Author Topic: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?  (Read 11660 times)

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Offline PraXis

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2011, 11:57:11 PM »
FDR, Carter, 0bama.

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2011, 12:03:41 AM »
Interesting to see FDR, who is so often lauded as a president, being listed as one of your worst.

I'd like to see your say on him, in terms of what things he did made you consider him a poor president. 

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2011, 05:51:55 AM »
kirksnosehair: I see you have a very negative view of Chimpy, one that I do largely share. 

I would like to ask you (or anyone else here) out of curiosity:

In the long run, do you think Bush's presidency will have had as negative an effect on the US as say, the pre-Lincoln presidents' failure to effectively alleviate rampant sectionalism between N and S?

I really dislike Bush, and wouldn't rank him too highly, but I don't know if I'm going to jump to the conclusion that he's at the very bottom of the barrel just a couple years after his leaving office.

Well, why wouldn't you put him at the bottom of the barrel?  All of the objective data supports it.  Biggest foreign policy blunder in the history of the country (Iraq) which, if it wasn't a blunder, then it was the biggest criminal act by any administration ever.  There's really no way to spin Iraq into something good, because nothing really good came of it and it was spawned by lies and the manipulation of data.  Then there's the torture issue.  Torture is wrong.  Period.  End of discussion.  We wagged our fingers at regimes all over the world for decades for engaging in it, then, we engaged in it.  All of these things happened under Bush, and let's not forget the squandered budget surplus.  With full respect to Bosk1 and the fact that the executive branch does not necessarily MAKE financial policy, it was most certainly Bush's idea to cut taxes for the rich twice (without paying for it) give seniors a prescription drug benefit (without paying for it) and essentially spend like a drunk sailor while borrowing all of the money for said spending from China.  COMMUNIST China.

Nope, Bush wins this one hands down.

Am I a super-biased ultra liberal, life-long card carrying member of the Democratic party?  Youbetcha  :lol

So my opinions on this matter should be taken with an ocean of salt.

Offline MetalMike06

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2011, 08:44:04 AM »
Wilson, FDR, Reagan

Offline yorost

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2011, 08:59:07 AM »
I don't think it makes sense to judge past presidents on today's moral values.  Otherwise, Washington, Jefferson, and all the other Presidents who owned other human beings would rank at the bottom.
Doesn't it?  I think we should view history through our own moral standards.

You're right that it isn't fair.  However, by giving them the a pass for living in a different time we often start to glorify things we don't at all support.  This can be a bad thing, and leave's many young US citizens with terrible perspective on the history of our country.  I'm not trying ti vilify people for the time period they were in.  I just think we should be careful about propping them up as great especially without examining their flaws closely.  We should be critical first, then move to perspective and progress made.

Owning slaves doesn't make a bad President, that's something questionable on their personal history.  Look at the founders of our country, we laud them for the declarations of freedom and equality for all but forget to mention they meant all male, white, protestant, land owning, rich people are equal above the rest.  It was very forward thinking then, but now we all but teach about them as though the end of slavery, women s' suffrage, and the civil rights movement were never supposed to have to happen.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2011, 02:47:16 PM »
I don't think it makes sense to judge past presidents on today's moral values.  Otherwise, Washington, Jefferson, and all the other Presidents who owned other human beings would rank at the bottom.
Doesn't it?  I think we should view history through our own moral standards.

You're right that it isn't fair.  However, by giving them the a pass for living in a different time we often start to glorify things we don't at all support.  This can be a bad thing, and leave's many young US citizens with terrible perspective on the history of our country.  I'm not trying ti vilify people for the time period they were in.  I just think we should be careful about propping them up as great especially without examining their flaws closely.  We should be critical first, then move to perspective and progress made.

Owning slaves doesn't make a bad President, that's something questionable on their personal history.  Look at the founders of our country, we laud them for the declarations of freedom and equality for all but forget to mention they meant all male, white, protestant, land owning, rich people are equal above the rest.  It was very forward thinking then, but now we all but teach about them as though the end of slavery, women s' suffrage, and the civil rights movement were never supposed to have to happen.
During my junior year of highschool in American history, we pointed out how flawed our founders were.  I think the youth get a pretty good handle on history,  through all of my history classes through out highschool we always talked about that sort of stuff.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2011, 05:01:40 PM »
kirksnosehair: I see you have a very negative view of Chimpy, one that I do largely share. 

I would like to ask you (or anyone else here) out of curiosity:

In the long run, do you think Bush's presidency will have had as negative an effect on the US as say, the pre-Lincoln presidents' failure to effectively alleviate rampant sectionalism between N and S?
This is really an interesting question.  Unfortunately, I'm not real familiar with the 10-12 years before the civil war, so it's hard to draw a comparison.  Something that does come to mind is that the civil war was brewing for quite some time before 1860.  Buchanan takes the brunt of the blame for it,  but mostly for indecisive action related to the succession; he certainly didn't cause the thing.  I'm not sure where you start to assess blame for it.  Don't Pierce and Filmore bare some of the responsibility?  Add to that,  I'm not sure if the civil war was preventable or not.  It seems to me like it might have been one of the necessary learning steps in the growth of the nation.  As I understand it,  that's kind of how Lincoln viewed the process.  I also seem to recall that Lincoln was miserable over the fact that he was unable to prevent it from happening.

Bush, on the other hand,  stumbled into a pretty nice situation.  I think he should be saddled with the responsibility for 9/11,  and he's certainly on the hook for screwing everything up so badly afterward.  I think there's a very real possibility that he goes down as the man who sank the ship.  Unquestionably,  Obama is contributing,  and whoever follows him will contribute as well,  but unlike Filmore, Pierce and Buchanan, who were just the last three in a long process of deterioration,  Chimpy was undoubtedly the beginning of the end.  It's pretty easy to figure out where to start the blame on that one.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2011, 08:52:16 AM »
FDR

Excuse my possible ignorance but isn't he considered one of the greatest presidents of all time?

Ignorance excused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937 <---tons of great books on this. Article pretty much sums it up accurately. Also, FDR was compared to Hitler (before we really knew about the Holocaust) because of this.

Also, the first New Deal was a total bust. In all, the New Deals really didn't do much to the economy as much as the war did. But, it did make people feel like they were helping, similar to Reagan making Americans feel "proud to be" Americans again in the 1980's.

Offline jsem

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2011, 06:24:37 AM »
As if FDR wasn't bad enough for not liquidating debt...

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2011, 06:32:35 AM »
The worst thing I know him for was the internment camps.

I mean, I know, wartime, but still, it was morally despicable.

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2011, 07:55:06 AM »
Some presidential statistic I found:

Of the first 18 presidents, only 6 did not own slaves at some point or another.

Adams, Quincy Adams, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Lincoln.

Buchanan is a bit of a fuzzy case, as he did have some indented servants, and that was similar to slavery.

Also, yes, Ulysses S. Grant did, in fact own some slaves at some point, though it was (obviously) before the war and it was through marriage.  Probably doesn't get brought up much, what with him being the Union General and such.

Here's a list of how many slaves each slaveowning president probably had:


-         GEORGE WASHINGTON (between 250-350 slaves)
-         THOMAS JEFFERSON (about 200)
-         JAMES MADISON (more than 100)
-         JAMES MONROE (about 75)
-         ANDREW JACKSON (fewer than 200)
-         Martin Van Buren (one)
-         William Henry Harrison (eleven)
-         JOHN TYLER (about 70)
-         JAMES POLK (about 25)
-         ZACHARY TAYLOR (fewer than 150)
-         Andrew Johnson (probably eight)
-         Ulysses S. Grant (probably five)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 08:01:30 AM by MasterShakezula »

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2011, 08:43:13 AM »
I don't think it makes sense to judge past presidents on today's moral values.  Otherwise, Washington, Jefferson, and all the other Presidents who owned other human beings would rank at the bottom.

Not sure why Jefferson deserves to be near the top, honestly. Most of what he's famous for is stuff that he did before becoming a raging hypocrite upon entering office.

I've gotta say though, FDR near the bottom really makes no sense to me, either. Controversial? Sure. But he got the nation through a number of its biggest trials, and held things together for, what, 13 years? And when he finally did step down, the US had come out of all it as the dominant player on the world stage. I get the argument that his domestic policies set us up for failure later, but that's partially to blame for the fact that we've never really done a good job being responsible about following them up, just like we have not always necessarily been responsible with our position as a super-power.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2011, 08:59:31 AM »
Am I a super-biased ultra liberal, life-long card carrying member of the Democratic party?  Youbetcha  :lol

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Offline bss4life15

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2011, 10:43:58 PM »
Reagen
Dubya

Offline livehard

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2011, 09:47:09 AM »
Interesting to see FDR, who is so often lauded as a president, being listed as one of your worst.

I'd like to see your say on him, in terms of what things he did made you consider him a poor president.

He started us on the path to socialism, and really didn't fix the economy at all.  He prolonged the great depression and somehow was able to spin it as a failure of the free market.  Really, it was quite the opposite.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2011, 02:05:14 PM »
Interesting to see FDR, who is so often lauded as a president, being listed as one of your worst.

I'd like to see your say on him, in terms of what things he did made you consider him a poor president.

He started us on the path to socialism, and really didn't fix the economy at all.  He prolonged the great depression and somehow was able to spin it as a failure of the free market.  Really, it was quite the opposite.

The Great Depression was a success of the free market?
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Offline livehard

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2011, 02:14:02 PM »
It was a failure of government.  Good explination, refrences the work by Shwartz and Friedman:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2004/200403022/default.htm
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 02:40:00 PM by livehard »

Offline TL

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2011, 06:23:17 PM »
Buchanan. He did basically fuck all to prevent the country from literally splitting up, and in some ways exacerbated the situation.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2011, 09:26:43 AM »
I don't know about the worst, but the best president was unquestionably Millard Fillmore.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2011, 10:43:47 AM »
If you are president while the economy is prospering you are considered a good president. If you are president while the economy is sucking ass, you're are considered a shitty president.
That's pretty much the reality of it for the most part.
If the economy sucks while a president is in office he can try to do something dramatic like end a war, kill some big time terrorists, free some slaves, or go to the moon. (tongue and cheek, relax)
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2011, 10:59:29 AM »
If the economy sucks while a president is in office he can try to do something dramatic like end a war, kill some big time terrorists, free some slaves, or go to the moon. (tongue and cheek, relax)

You meant start a war, right?

Bush Jr has to be toward the bottom of the list, but on the list of worst cabinet and advisors, he is #1 with a bullet.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2011, 12:36:29 PM »
Am I a super-biased ultra liberal, life-long card carrying member of the Democratic party?  Youbetcha  :lol



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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2011, 01:48:35 PM »
Andrew Jackson: Trail of Tears, nearly destroying the American economy... it's a wonder he's liked at all.

Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan: exacerbated North/South tensions and pretty much allowed the Civil War to take place.

Hoover: Lacked leadership to bring the US out of the Great Depression

Nixon: continuance of the Vietnam War, Watergate, etc, etc

Reagan: absolutely AWFUL economic policies. Why on earth does the GOP revere him so much?


Anyone who's saying that Obama is already one of the worst presidents really needs to step back and consider something:



HIS PRESIDENCY ISN'T OVER YET DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Offline El Barto

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2011, 02:01:52 PM »
Andrew Jackson: Trail of Tears, nearly destroying the American economy... it's a wonder he's liked at all.
He fought duels,  beat his would-be assassin with a wooden cane,  and lamented being unable to hang his vice president.  What's not to like?
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2011, 02:07:07 PM »

Reagan: absolutely AWFUL economic policies. Why on earth does the GOP revere him so much?


It's something that has baffled a lot of people over the years.  The Republican mythology about Reagan doesn't really match up with the reality of today's so-called "constitutional conservative values."  For example, Reagan gave amnesty to 3.5 million illegal aliens, which was and is a huge contributing factor to today's immigration problem.  I think part of the mythology surrounding Reagan is a sort of denial of objective historical facts in favor of selective memory that serves to reinforce the inherent bias that conservatives have towards one of their own.  That's not to say that liberals don't do the same thing (we do!) but the fact is, the most recent historical liberal president, while having many personal failings, presided over the largest economic expansion in US history and is the only modern president to have achieved a balanced budget. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2011, 02:49:22 PM »
Let's keep in mind that when St. Reagan was in office,  the Republicans and conservatives were very much in line with his policies.  Over the last 10 years they've moved the base well outside of Reagan's ideology.  Reagan and Obama are pretty much ideological equals, it's just that the scale has shifted far to the right so that a modern democrat (you know, the socialists) are equal to the old school republicans of Reagan's era. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline BMWWrstlr

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2011, 02:59:57 PM »
The two worst presidents sandwiched one of the best.....Buchanan and Andrew Johnson. It really is frightening to think what would have become of this country if a man like Lincoln wasn't in between the two of them.

Keep in mind also, folks, that as much as you hate a guy in the heat of the moment, it takes a good 20 - 25 years before a President's term can be fairly assessed. One only needs to look at Obama, who chose to keep many of the policies of the 'horrible' Dubya when he got in office and found out the things that ONLY a President knows....
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Offline 73109

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2011, 03:02:07 PM »
I'm confused. FDR took a failing economy, put some shit in gear, the economy boomed, and helped America win WWII...and he's the worst president ever. I don't get it.

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2011, 03:06:21 PM »
The two worst presidents sandwiched one of the best.....Buchanan and Andrew Johnson. It really is frightening to think what would have become of this country if a man like Lincoln wasn't in between the two of them.

Keep in mind also, folks, that as much as you hate a guy in the heat of the moment, it takes a good 20 - 25 years before a President's term can be fairly assessed. One only needs to look at Obama, who chose to keep many of the policies of the 'horrible' Dubya when he got in office and found out the things that ONLY a President knows....

This is why I didn't include him in my list.... yet. And I forgot about Johnson. Reconstruction was a fucking mess under him.

I'm confused. FDR took a failing economy, put some shit in gear, the economy boomed, and helped America win WWII...and he's the worst president ever. I don't get it.

Because his New Deal policies were vaguely socialist, and socialism is wrong, for reasons which escape me

Offline 73109

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2011, 03:07:26 PM »
That's what I was thinking. :lol

Damn socialists and there sense!

Offline livehard

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2011, 03:28:45 PM »
Reagan: absolutely AWFUL economic policies. Why on earth does the GOP revere him so much?

Awful economic policies? Ask your parents what the stagflation was like during Carter vs when Regan took over.

No president had more conviction and character than Regan.  He intentionally made an extremely bad political move by getting supply siders to contract the money supply in order for long term gain. He had great economic policies.

Offline MetalMike06

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2011, 03:55:42 PM »
I'm confused. FDR took a failing economy, put some shit in gear, the economy boomed, and helped America win WWII...and he's the worst president ever. I don't get it.

There's many great cases made that say that his policies actually lengthened and worsened the Great Depression. And just 'cause we won WWII doesn't mean it was some glorious, infallible necessity. Plenty of this stuff is still debated to this day, despite conventional stuff you might hear in a high school history class.

It's all debatable of course and there's a wealth of information to read out there. But as with everything, it's just not so cut and dry.

Offline TL

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2011, 04:21:10 PM »
Let's keep in mind that when St. Reagan was in office,  the Republicans and conservatives were very much in line with his policies.  Over the last 10 years they've moved the base well outside of Reagan's ideology.  Reagan and Obama are pretty much ideological equals, it's just that the scale has shifted far to the right so that a modern democrat (you know, the socialists) are equal to the old school republicans of Reagan's era.
This. I mean, here in Canada we have one of the most conservative, right wing governments we've ever had right now, but in the current US political climate, our Prime Minister would be seen as a communist hippie. The US is absurdly far to the right compared to the rest of the developed world.

Offline 73109

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2011, 04:22:02 PM »
I think it's time to pack up and move to America's hat.

Offline snapple

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Re: Who do YOU think were the worst presidents of the US?
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2011, 05:41:47 PM »
Andrew Jackson: Trail of Tears, nearly destroying the American economy... it's a wonder he's liked at all.
He fought duels,  beat his would-be assassin with a wooden cane,  and lamented being unable to hang his vice president.  What's not to like?

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